Season finale - "TS-19"

[thxleo]

Not really sure what to think of the finale. Not boring, that's for sure. There are some subtle nods to Day of the Dead in this one, which I enjoyed. Dying to know who left the stretcher in front of Rick's hospital room door? Now you'll know!

[Legion2213]

Not really sure what to think of the finale. Not boring, that's for sure. There are some subtle nods to Day of the Dead in this one, which I enjoyed. Dying to know who left the stretcher in front of Rick's hospital room door? Now you'll know!

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e50/grandwi/motivation/cocktease.jpg

:D

[babomb]

Where ya seein these? Letmewatchthis.com?
I tried watchin those but you have to be a fuckin windows user to get the plugin!!??:duh::mad:

[kidgloves]

Where ya seein these? Letmewatchthis.com?
I tried watchin those but you have to be a fuckin windows user to get the plugin!!??:duh::mad:

AMC are sending Lee screeners. Courtesy of Nicotero i think

[thxleo]

AMC are sending Lee screeners. Courtesy of Nicotero i think

No, sir. Greg had nothing to do with it. AMC has been sending me the screeners because I interviewed Gale Anne Hurd for this site. I was originally going to visit the set, but that fell through unfortunately.

Speaking of interviews, I've been trying in vain to score an interview with Frank Darabont through AMC. Unfortunately, he has been very busy. I've actually turned down interview opportunities with some of the cast members because they've been making the rounds on tons of other sites. Plus on top of that I got the chance to briefly interview them at the NYC Comic Con, so I would feel like I was repeating myself. I simply didn't find that too appealing. There is one cast member, Jefferey DeMunn, that I have put a formal request in for. I'm still waiting to hear something from the AMC publicist about him. He is someone that I find really interesting and I believe he would make for a great interview. So hopefully that happens. But who the hell knows?

[kidgloves]

No, sir. Greg had nothing to do with it. AMC has been sending me the screeners because I interviewed Gale Anne Hurd for this site. I was originally going to visit the set, but that fell through unfortunately.

Speaking of interviews, I've been trying in vain to score an interview with Frank Darabont through AMC. Unfortunately, he has been very busy. I've actually turned down interview opportunities with some of the cast members because they've been making the rounds on tons of other sites. Plus on top of that I got the chance to briefly interview them at the NYC Comic Con, so I would feel like I was repeating myself. I simply didn't find that too appealing. There is one cast member, Jefferey DeMunn, that I have put a formal request in for. I'm still waiting to hear something from the AMC publicist about him. He is someone that I find really interesting and I believe he would make for a great interview. So hopefully that happens. But who the hell knows?

DeMunn would be a fascinating interview. The man is very reflective and talks well about the art of acting. The best interviews i've heard from people involved with this project have all been casual conversations that avoid the standard questions. Kirkmans absolutely hilarious. How about some audio Lee? I love listening to actors talking about their characters.

[thxleo]

How about some audio Lee? I love listening to actors talking about their characters.

That's a great question. I'm very old school and I use micro-cassettes when I record interviews, not digital. To be honest I don't have a clue how to convert those to my computer, LOL. I have 3 hours of recordings from the NYC Comic Con with Frank Darabont, Gale Anne Hurd, Andrew Lincoln, Jon Bernthal, Steven Yeun, Norman Reedus, Sarah Wayne Callies, Laurie Holden, and Robert Kirkman. I taped the private session in the press junket and then I also attended the panel discussion which was open to the public and taped it as well. I'd love to put those on here and not worry about transcribing everything. I originally planned on putting that on here, but after my surgery I spent so much time laid up relaxing that I've gotten slightly lazy, LOL. Plus on top of that I'm doing research on a personal little passion project and I'm also looking for a new Tacoma truck to replace my old one that Toyota repurchased from me due to a recall. So my plate has been full.

I'm not going to give up on DeMunn or Darabont though. I've pestered AMC to the point of being a pain in their ass, I'm sure. I've thought about asking Greg if he might be able to help me land an interview with Frank because they are extremely close friends. I just can't bring myself to do it though. Greg has done me more favors than I could ever hope to repay him for and I just can't bring myself to ask for another one.

I just want to do something that lots of others can enjoy and get something out of. That's my goal.

[kidgloves]

Get cracking Lee

http://www.wikihow.com/Transfer-Cassette-Tape-to-Computer

It's easy mate.
Hope you're recovering well btw.

[thxleo]

Get cracking Lee

http://www.wikihow.com/Transfer-Cassette-Tape-to-Computer

It's easy mate.
Hope you're recovering well btw.

Thank you!
Thanks for the well wishes too. :)

[Gabe_dead]

Rick and the group are allowed into the CDC by a strange doctor. But all is not what it seems in their newfound haven.
---------------------------------------

I think they should be trying to grab some of the machine guns outside the Cdc and put up some kind of roof top Defense like in Dawn......For God Sakes their are tons of dead soldigers around them. I'm sure they have Frags and Guns, Also What Happened to the Grenade that the Sherrif grabbed from the tank in Episode 1?

[bassman]

No reason to sit on the roof and defend an impenetrable fortress. Not to mention it would only draw more of the walkers to the CDC. If anything, they should pick up what's left of those weapons on their way out. Not attract attention on the way in.

btw....there's already a thread on this episode.

[Thorn]

Both of these points were made on 4Chan at length.. .I am told. because you know I do not go there myself.:shifty:

I would naturally have been looting as I went, that area was filled with dead soldiers and that means ammo, and guns. And guns and ammo are not being made anymore as far as anyone knows. Maybe it is the survivalist/dead head in me but damn it I am not walking by a soldier with ammo and an m16 when giving out one revolver to a member of our group to protect his entire family in a land of the dead i a big deal.

I am assuming the grenade will come into play at some point, discussed this with a buddy yesterday at the office.

I would not be on the roof defending the CDC, the Walkers were inactive there until Rick and company showed up. Why ring the dinner bell?

Again there was a tank right there, I know it is not easy to drive a tank but let's be honest.. what else do you have to do? No games on TV, no Internet. I would have plenty of time to teach myself how to drive one ;)

Gas is the only issue I see with that, and of course you know getting locked inside one with walkers all over the outside making getting out an impossibility.

[Thorn]

Since htere are two threads going on this and Leo seems to be the official thread starter, I jsut wanted to get this up to the top to house conversation.

https://supportforums.motorola.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/2-209538-4337/200-200/frog_bump.jpg

[bassman]

Not much else to discuss until this Sunday, really....

[axlish]

ts-19 threads merged

[kidgloves]

Oh well. The final episode is nearly upon us :(.
I think im gonna do a marathon and enjoy the spectacle.

[bassman]

I'll be doing the marathon with AMC later today. They'll be playing the entire series from 4:30 to 11:00. I won't necessarily sit through all of them(particularly the first three), but it'll definitely be the background noise. :)

[Trancelikestate]

I wish it was 2 hours long. :p

[JonOfTheShred]

Aw shit, its starting up. More Lori sluttiness in the intro to remind the faithful viewers. ;)

Nice flashback segment. Hope there's more of these in Season 2...

So far, I dig. Although I question some of the stuff they're (SPOILER) lifting from the prison and putting into the CDC center. (/SPOILER)

Edit:

Ok, that was pretty epic. I thought some 'regulars' weren't gonna make it. I feel like that was a satisfying 6 episode arc over-all. Still...I can't help but feel its just gonna be a warm-up to the glorious second season.

[erisi236]

Now the long wait begins for season 2.

[Debbieangel]

Finale was awesome...now when are they gonna start filming for second season?
I hope we don't have to wait clear til Oct. 2011 to see it. That would just SUCK!!!!

[Sammich]

Why was the army killing all of the hospital staff and how come that one soldier didn't shoot Rick in the head when he saw him in lying in the bed?

[hadrian0117]

And the cause of the zombie plague is...

...nobody has a fucking clue. :D Just like in the comics or Romero's films.

Good finale. So anyone wanna guess what Jenner wispered to Rick? My WAG is that Rick's going to be a father again, if only by law and not biology. ;) Sucks that what's probally the last place on Earth that could do a DNA test just blew up.

[childofgilead]

That's the exact question I was mulling over my friends just now..it may have been under orders, due to some sort of "uprising" or maybe a few soldiers lost their heads and wanted to leave? Nobody to guard, nobody to protect? Dunno..also, who chained the cafeteria and painted Don't Enter Dead Inside after that? Were they taking out the civilians in order to base up?

Definitely unanswered questions, and these'll probably never be answered..and that sucks!

[hadrian0117]

I think the civilians were either suspected bite victims or refused evacuation. BTW, Shane is a cop, but doesn't even know how to take a plus? :duh: What? Was the Sheriff his uncle or something? :rockbrow:

[FunkyPertwee]

This was least favorite episode. No zombie action.

[Doc]

This was least favorite episode. No zombie action.

So, you didn't like Episodes 3 and 5 either I'm assuming?:confused:

[Ghoulman]

And the cause of the zombie plague is...

...nobody has a fucking clue. :D Just like in the comics or Romero's films.

Good finale. So anyone wanna guess what Jenner wispered to Rick? My WAG is that Rick's going to be a father again, if only by law and not biology. ;) Sucks that what's probally the last place on Earth that could do a DNA test just blew up.

What Jenner whispered to Rick? My money is on something like "You all carry the virus. Everybody does. It's not transmitted through the bites. Bites just speed up death" OR "Your wife is pregnant" to jel with comic canon.

[hadrian0117]

Oh, and the French labs shutting down wasn't the best time to complain about the world running on fossil fuels seeing as how France is one of the biggest leaders in nuclear technology.

[FunkyPertwee]

So, you didn't like Episodes 3 and 5 either I'm assuming?:confused:

I did enjoy those episodes. When watching them, I still felt like I was a part of the zombie world.

This episode was like a vacation from zombies. Not a bad episode, but I'm not really satisfied for a season finale.

[ProfessorChaos]

well, i was thoroughly impressed. i thought (kinda like in ep 5) that it wouldn't have hurt to show a few more walkers outside the CDC during the big finale, and maybe a few lumbering after the convoy in the way out. still, a great ending to an amazing first season.

shane is definitely loosing it, it will be interesting to see how that dynamic plays out. i (and anyone who has read the comics) have a solid idea about what to expect, but when, why, and how is left to be seen. i did really enjoy the flashback to when shane left rick at the hospital, it made shane a bit more tolerable.....until he got lori alone later on, then he became a slime-ball again. as for the flashback, though, it was great to see how that whole scene went down, the chaos at the hospital, explosions knocking out the power, etc.

as for what jenner whispered to rick, it's has got to be what most have already hinted at, but i'm not gonna bother re-posting it or fooling with spoiler tags.

so now, the only additional characters from the comics are merle, daryl (who is getting cooler and more likeable by the episode, i really hope he sticks around), and t-dog. i imagine t-dog's gonna end up getting killed off sometime early in season 2. and they're gonna have to address this merle issue sooner or later, likely near the beginning of the 2nd season, i'm guessing.

seriously, in it's entirety, i feel that TWD season 1 was about the best damn thing i've ever seen on television and probably one of the best entries into the zombie genre, film or otherwise, ranking right up there with romero's big 3.

damn, i really feel like pulling a cartman and freezing myself/hibernating till october now, but then i'd miss out on all the hysteria, conjectures, and belly-aching around this place over every minute detail/news release related to this show between now and then, so i guess i'll just wait it out with the rest of you loonies.:p

[zomtom]

Many thanks to AMC. I've been a zombie addict for ages and this series brought me back to the good old days. I'm already having withdrawl symptoms. I hope I can make it til October. It feels so great to be excited about zombies again!!!! I've loved every episode!!

[TCDarkness]

What Jenner whispered to Rick? My money is on something like "You all carry the virus. Everybody does. It's not transmitted through the bites. Bites just speed up death" OR "Your wife is pregnant" to jel with comic canon.

The second prediction seems way more likely, in my opinion. That sets up for a huge issue in season 2 if that were the case. Off the top of my head, I thought what might have been whispered was
your wife was shagging your best friend/partner.

Gosh darnit, why do we have to wait 10 1/2 months for season 2? :(

[DjfunkmasterG]

Ok... so I have watched the final episode twice now and I have to say that while yes it was light on zombies... the whole TS-19 story bit and time line was fantastic. I thought the episode was done quite well and I felt satisfied when it ended. also add to the fact they didn't leave all of us with a major cliff hanger til october... the way it was executed works perfectly... we have a bit of the unknown but not enough to drive us bat shit crazy as we know our hero's are safe for the moment.

I watched the Marathon and I have finally put together my list of how I rank the episodes:

1. Days Gone By - BEST PERIOD, NO ROOM FOR DISCUSSION
2. Wildfire (Episode #5)
3. TS-19
4. Guts
5. Tell it to The Frogs
6. Vatos

[Legion2213]

You know what I love about this series...the people, the way they act, the way they react, the way they interact. They are all shell-shocked from this "extinction event" as Jenner called it. Everybody is doing their best to survive and deal with the situation as best they can, but in what I feel is a totally believable way...in short, it's really damn easy to suspend disbelief watching this excelent show.

Hell, the walkers are almost a side issue, and seeing as I tune in to see zombies, I should have a problem with that, but I don't...it's giving me genuine post apocalypse entertainment, great drama and throwing in zacks and wonderful kills as a bonus.

Oh, as for the BD release...day one pre-order as far as I am concerned.

Love it, just friggin' love it.

[Ghoulman]

I totally agree Legion2213. This series has more than adequately managed to capture Robert Kirkman's intended tone from the source material. Sure there are some tiny, nitpicky issues here and there but, in a show about reanimated corpses, I can look past each and every one.

The Walking Dead, for me, has proven to be a spectacular show and I look forward to each and every episode like NOTHING I have ever looked forward to on television before. As a whole, Season 1 was, as stated somewhere above, one of the finest forays into the world of a zombie apocalypse that I have EVER seen and I am already pining to learn more about the eventual fates of Rick, Daryl, Glenn, Andrea, Dale, Shane, Lori, T-Dog, Karol, Carl and Sofia. I think the fact that I know ever single characters name and care so much about them, as well as know each episodes name (I've NEVER done that with ANY show) is a testament to how incredible this show really Is. Thank You Frank Darabont for such an amazing and faithful translation of Robert Kirkman's wonderful work!

[kidgloves]

Brilliant episode although I'm sure someone will be along soon to disagree on the basis that the tyres on Shanes jeep were from a different model.
Ive really enjoyed the ride and have loved the way the plot questions are answered in the next episode.
The hospital scene was ace and there can be many answers to why they were shooting citizens. Im leaning toward the fact that the patients had no chance anyway, would be a burden to the military, and if they returned, would increase the ranks of the undead. Very harsh but understandable. Doesn't explain why the solider didn't shoot Rick but hey watcha gonna do. The whole hospital thing in the pilot blew me away so it was great to get some answers to what happened. Shame they didn't have the budget to show what happened outside. Maybe next season eh?
The grenade was always going to put in an appearance and ive been waiting every week for it to show up.
My order of fav eps

1) Ep1 - Days Gone Bye
2) Ep6 - TS-19
3) Ep5 - Wildfire
4) Ep3 - Tell it to the Frogs
5) Ep2 - Guts
6) Ep4 - Vatos

A very good season overall and I'm just gagging for more. 2nd season will be the real start so get writing Frank and Robert.

Tick Tock. Tick Tock.

[bassman]

Pretty cool episode. Dale is my new favorite character. The scene between him and Andrea was touching. What can I say? The old guy just rocks.

I've got a bit more sympathy for Shane now. He's still going bonkers, but at least we have an idea as to why now.

Great season. It's going to be a long wait till October. Hopefully the Blu Ray has enough features to tide us over.

[Phildogger]

I think you meant "Dale", not Daryl. Dale is the older Gentleman.

I wasn't crazy about the episode. I don't think the explanation about the re-animation was clear enough. To the casual viewer, it would reinforce their assumption that the bite transmits a virus that causes death, then reanimation. This is not the case. In this universe, just like George's, death by any means will cause the dead to rise. The cause is unknown, and should remain that way.

I really wish Kirkman was writing, or at least signing off on every episode. I'm glad that they are veering away from the comic a little bit in terms of storyline, but I hope they aren't going to cater to the masses by explaining away the Zombie infestation as a "Plague". That would be the ultimate insult.

[bassman]

I think you meant "Dale", not Daryl. Dale is the older Gentleman.

Typo corrected. Thanks

[Eyebiter]

After watching TS-19 the Doctor was lying when he said they had "no clue" what was causing the reanimation of the dead.

[shootemindehead]

Decent enough episode. Nice nods to 'Day of the Dead' in there too. Like the whole Test Subject thing and the end to that particular sequence was great. Happy to see another equity card bite the dust. I didn't even know her name. But the Janner locking the doors thing was a bit too forced and it didn't come off as realistic at all, unfortunately.

As for what Janner said, it probably IS "Your missus is up the duff" or else "I saw your 'best mate' trying it on with your woman on the monitor". Though, it's more than likely the former.

Hope they aren't too long getting series 2 together...

...and make it 24 episodes this time please AMC, FFS!

[bassman]

...and make it 24 episodes this time please AMC, FFS!

Like all of AMC's shows, Season Two will be thirteen episodes.

[Neil]

Hope they aren't too long getting series 2 together...

...and make it 24 episodes this time please AMC, FFS!


Word is 13 episodes... next October...

[shootemindehead]

Hmmm...unlucky for some.

[hadrian0117]

...and make it 24 episodes this time please AMC, FFS!

Hell no! Thirteen episodes is the perfect number for a season for a drama. Six is too
short, but a full network-style season would lead to alot of filler eps.

[CooperWasRight]

I would normally be inclined to agree with you... Even season 1 of Heroes (probably it's most consistent ) suffered and the 1st couple seasons of lost suffered... To try and pump 24-27 episodes a year is just difficult at best.
That's a lot of work and QC standards and consistency of writing in a large staff becomes a problem.

That being said even if they stuck to the comic book verbatim from here on it would take at least 6 years to catch the comic if the seasons were 24 episodes long. One of the main reasons shows like Lost or Heroes have with keeping a shows consistency over a 24-27 episode season is they have to dream alot of the arcs and stories up on the fly.. Forget polishing it.
Not the case here... I think this could be the first show that could actually run the grueling 24 episode season and hold the same relative quality as it has source material to draw from.

[shootemindehead]

Agreed. If they stuck to the source, they could do 24 eps standing on their heads. The thing is already written and is far superior to what the TV writers have produced so far.

[bassman]

I keep reading the opinion that the comics are vastly superior to this first season. Considering the few issues this season covered, I think the series did a much better job at telling a story. It fleshed out the characters and made it a much more engaging story. These issues of the comics were basically pretty pictures and gore for the gore hounds. No reason to care for Rick or his quest, really.

[MikePizzoff]

I wasn't crazy about the episode. I don't think the explanation about the re-animation was clear enough. To the casual viewer, it would reinforce their assumption that the bite transmits a virus that causes death, then reanimation. This is not the case. In this universe, just like George's, death by any means will cause the dead to rise. The cause is unknown, and should remain that way.


What was good was that there WASN'T an explanation. The Doc straight up said he could not figure out what was causing people to re-animate. It's better left ambiguous.

As far as having general populous think that people only turn into zombies when bitten/scratched/whatever, this is bound to happen amongst people, but I think the reason they haven't revealed that ANY means of death = reanimation is because they'll have this be a surprise moment in season 2.

My thoughts on the episode as a whole - it was pretty good but far from great. Loved the ending, though, leaving the casual viewer with the thought of "What are they going to do now? The CDC was their only plan."

[acealive1]

glad they didnt kill off the hot chick :elol::elol::elol::elol:

[MLA]

Did write-ups for every episode this season for anyone who is interested:

Here (http://www.majorleagueasshole.net)

[ProfessorChaos]

i've actually read all those already. don't know who you are, but you're a friend of the pizz (your site is linked in his sig), so you've gotta be halfway cool

welcome to the boards.......don't mind the minor civil war breaking out around here these days...

[MLA]

Pizz is my personal man-boy. We like to ruin parties by getting drunk and arguing about Dawn Vs. Day of the Dead

[bassman]

After just re-watching this episode, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Dylan at the end. Tomorrow Is A Long Time was a nice fit for the season closer.

I'm also glad there is no definitive time frame for the dead to reanimate. That puts an end to that age old debate.

[FunkyPertwee]

After just re-watching this episode, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Dylan at the end. Tomorrow Is A Long Time was a nice fit for the season closer.

I'm also glad there is no definitive time frame for the dead to reanimate. That puts an end to that age old debate.



By making the time variable, they can make a variety of horrifying reanimation scenarios.

If they need a fast or slow reanimation, they can do it and remain canon.

[Trencher]

I disliked this episode thought it was clichéd and boring. Everything that went on inside the cdc could have been dealt with in ten minutes and we could have more focus on Shanes flashback and the group getting out of the town. The scientist was evil. Woohpti doo what a surprise. And somebody needs to tell Darabount that suicide is not beautiful, rational or dignified.

[bassman]

I really fail to see where this "evil scientist" thing is coming from. There was nothing evil about him. He was doing what he thought was best. It's not like he was fucking corpses and talking to his "mother"....

[DjfunkmasterG]

Maybe those that hate this episode can back to supporting Romero more recent and inferior work and leave those of us who enjoy the hell out of this series to talk about it in great lengths without hearing a bunch of BS about being cliched this or cliched that... Wanna talk cliched???? Watch anything Romero produced from LAND to SURVIVAL

[Legion2213]

Have to agree with those objecting to the scientist being called "evil"...he was broken, damaged and beaten. He only stuck around because he made a promise to his wife (who he watched die, re-animate and then had to put down himself...all while taking scientific notes).

He also probably had a far bigger grasp of the sheer scale of the situation as well, he watched the lights go out...not just in his neighbourhood like most survivors, but all over the whole planet (and at some of the best prepared and safest places to be based), I don't believe he was exagerating when he called it an "extinction event".

I felt sorry for the guy, at worst he could be called misguided or defeated...not evil in my view.

[ProfessorChaos]

After just re-watching this episode, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Dylan at the end. Tomorrow Is A Long Time was a nice fit for the season closer

i was pretty impressed by that. as a matter of fact, the first season of mad men ended with a dylan track, "don't think twice it's alright", one of my favorite songs by him. it really fit the mood that episode ended on, and last night's TWD's inclusion of dylan had me smiling thinking of how great both those shows are. then i got to thinking that there's a high probability that the dylan song finishing the season may have been intentional due to how MM season 1 ended. just a thought.

EDIT: i also tend to think jenner wasn't "evil", just traumatized and wore-out. if they'd have had to end up killing him and finding an escape, that'd be different. but he was merely trying to be (in his mind, at least) merciful about things.

[MoonSylver]

After just re-watching this episode, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Dylan at the end.

What, you mean this?

Dylan in The Walking Dead (http://www.dylanmessaging.com/messages/EPB4-Q4YO-0144-22PK-H0MS?commentor-name=MS&commentor-email=moonsylver%40roadrunner.com)

I was surprised at their choice

http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/moonsylver/Capture.jpg
:lol:

[ProfessorChaos]

moon, you are a class act. that shit was hi-fuckin-larious...:lol::lol::lol:

but you really should have thrown a "that's what she said!" in there...

[MoonSylver]

moon, you are a class act. that shit was hi-fuckin-larious...:lol::lol::lol:

but you really should have thrown a "that's what she said!" in there...

D'oh! Spur of the moment thing. Plus they only give you 10 to work with. Oh well. :(

[clanglee]

After just re-watching this episode, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Dylan at the end. Tomorrow Is A Long Time was a nice fit for the season closer.

. Yeah I was trying to forget actually. Not a Dylan fan. . . at all really. . and the choice jarred with me and stood out from the final scene as a distraction. Didn't like it.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Have to agree with those objecting to the scientist being called "evil"...he was broken, damaged and beaten. He only stuck around because he made a promise to his wife (who he watched die, re-animate and then had to put down himself...all while taking scientific notes).

He also probably had a far bigger grasp of the sheer scale of the situation as well, he watched the lights go out...not just in his neighbourhood like most survivors, but all over the whole planet (and at some of the best prepared and safest places to be based), I don't believe he was exagerating when he called it an "extinction event".

I felt sorry for the guy, at worst he could be called misguided or defeated...not evil in my view.

Agreed Legion, The guy was not EVIL... he was not sitting there rubbing his hands together with a devilish smile going... Muahahahahahaha... i shall lock you in and you watch the boom. If you try to leave I shall yell MULDOOOOOON!

I felt Dr. Jenner was a great part of the episode, and I think the CDC story arc, while short was great stuff, especially with the virtual MRI showing how the zombification process starts. Then finding out the originals of TS-19 in relation to the event was like WHOA!... it made somuch more sense on why he had more or less given up and seemed broken... however, anyone tyhnking the CDC contingency plan was far fetched has clearly lost their mind (Not anyone here, but I have read that on other forums and boards)

Now I am not 100% famailiar with the entire CDC and how it handles things of this nature (Devastating events) However, this episode would make a great argument for the US government to go solar in a facility like this to keep the lights on and everything functioning so they could contune their research.

[Ghoulman]

I couldn't agree more with DjfunkmasterG about Jenner. I thought he truly believed his way out was the best and most humane way out of an endlessly violent, brutal and ultimately futile existance. To me, it's no different than any characters in the genre, past or future, who chose to eat a bullet after being hopelessly surrounded or finally realizing what exactly the big picture looked like.

[bassman]

Now I am not 100% famailiar with the entire CDC and how it handles things of this nature (Devastating events) However, this episode would make a great argument for the US government to go solar in a facility like this to keep the lights on and everything functioning so they could contune their research.

I would imagine....well...HOPE that they've already got that set up. How stupid would it be to run on fuel? But hey....it is the government, so...

And I would also think they have a back up plan for total failure of the facility, much like the show. It would probably be something more contained, but there's no way they would let everything sit and possibly escape in the event of near human extinction. It shouldn't be a huge bomb, that's for sure. They'll have another Gone With The Wind on their hands. :p

[Gemini]

OK, here are my thoughts -

First the positive:

The opening hospital scene was fairly effective. Although thicker hordes of the undead in the hallway and clogged through doors would have added weight to the theory that they somehow overhwhelmed the military. The scene also shows Shane as a much more complex character than he had been drawn thus far. Also, I felt the dialogue, acting, and performances were strong throughout - by all characters, something that had been spotty in the series thus far. I was relieved also that there was an explanation of the varying times it takes for a corpse to turn.

Now the negative:

Was this escape from the walking dead or escape from the time bomb? Why was the antagonist of the show an automated building set to blow up and not the walking dead? Zombies once again were scarce until the few at the end that were cut through like butter (again making the zombie hordes appear all too vulnerable). The show seemed like a low budget SyFy version of '24', complete with the awful CG that was the final explosion. Also, how could Rick thank the Dr. at the end when in fact he had held them up for nearly an hour and was basically trying to kill them? That seemed awkward and unbelievable to me. Also, the theory as to why the Dr was alone still doesn't hold water for me. If you want me to believe in a world that hopeless then you better damn well convince me the zombie population is a potent, unrelenting menace in mind blowing numbers and I've seen little of that in this series.

The good news is the rating kicked ass and we're likely to see a marked improvement in budget and production quality next season.

On another note, on the whole TWD vs. recent GAR films, my two cents is the Land stands with the first three while Diary and Survival were pretty awful. And imo only certain episodes of TWD (certainly not all) were better than Diary and Survival. Episode 1 was probably better than Land though.

[Trencher]

For the record I thought Land sucked, Diary was a mixed bag and Survival was bad.
As for the bomb going off I dont see any problem with that, you can rig explosives to destroy a building without doing much damage to the surrounding area and it would kill viruses and seal them underground.

[Neil]

Well, I have to say I enjoyed the final episode. Some nice techno-science babble and some interesting character play and tension!

Loved the opening flash back scene!

[Zombie Snack]

I enjoyed the final episode, it was great as a stand alone episode, maybe my 2nd favorite of the 6, but it left me a little underwhelmed as a season final. Next season I'd like to see a few more walking dead milling around in the background, and some more of the flash back scenes for sure.

[Doc]

Maybe a nitpick, but did Rick really just forget he had a grenade all this time? Rick should have been madly searching for that grenade as soon as it went missing. I mean what if one of the kids got their hands on it for goodness sakes!:confused: And what was Carol's reason for hiding it? That made no sense for me.

[Zombie Snack]

I really enjoyed those moments from the entire season that had the whole Dawn and Day "vibe" going

[MinionZombie]

Well, I have to say I enjoyed the final episode. Some nice techno-science babble and some interesting character play and tension!

Loved the opening flash back scene!


I really enjoyed those moments from the entire season that had the whole Dawn and Day "vibe" going

Agreed with you both there, I really dug the finale. Outside of the first episode, TS-19 was my second-favourite episode (Wildfire being my favourite ... outside the season opener).

Will pimp my full thoughts in due course, but suffice to say I loved it. It was like Doc Logan's research remade for the 21st century. :cool:

[Wyldwraith]

Gonna go out on a limb here,
And say that TWD as a show may very well deviate from the Romero-ish "Everyone who dies, reanimates." For one thing, it complicates matters/plots without giving back enough value in return for the complication. I'm with you all on an unknown causes, but I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE this magical "The entire world population has responded biologically IN THE EXACT SAME WAY, to ANY outside stimulus." It's good enough for me that zombies pass on an Unknown Microbial Agent, Which Causes a 100% Terminal auto-immune/inflammatory response throughout the body's tissues, and then reactivates the brain stem as an anaerobic system, thus reanimating all exposed cadavers.

I mean, I know some people will fight to the death in defense of this plot device but, from an episode to episode, or even a season-wide perspective, what is really lost by dispensing with the harder-to-sustain suspension of disbelief plot device depicting all casualties in TWD world as subject to reanimation? I just don't see it.

Anyways, I enjoyed the season finale's opening scene, and then Dr. Jenner's explanation-that-was-not-an-explanation, and several other scenes. However, I had a difficult time really feeling the absolute despair that Jenner's words were supposed to convey. All in all, FAR PREFERABLE to a cheesy cliffhanger, so I am well-satisfied until Season 2.

[Neil]

I think the only think that let TS-19 down were just a few walkers were required in some scenes. ie: After the *boom* there should have been a couple around (maybe one/two on fire)? And definately as they drove away, there should have been a good number heading towards the sound?

As it was, it really didn't seem very dangerous out there at all?

[bassman]

There were quite a few as they were exiting the CDC. They shoot/axe/decapitate a good five or ten. And that explosion being as big as it was, I imagine there would be any walking around for a few minutes.

[Phildogger]

Gonna go out on a limb here,
And say that TWD as a show may very well deviate from the Romero-ish "Everyone who dies, reanimates." For one thing, it complicates matters/plots without giving back enough value in return for the complication. I'm with you all on an unknown causes, but I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE this magical "The entire world population has responded biologically IN THE EXACT SAME WAY, to ANY outside stimulus." It's good enough for me that zombies pass on an Unknown Microbial Agent, Which Causes a 100% Terminal auto-immune/inflammatory response throughout the body's tissues, and then reactivates the brain stem as an anaerobic system, thus reanimating all exposed cadavers.

I mean, I know some people will fight to the death in defense of this plot device but, from an episode to episode, or even a season-wide perspective, what is really lost by dispensing with the harder-to-sustain suspension of disbelief plot device depicting all casualties in TWD world as subject to reanimation? I just don't see it.

Anyways, I enjoyed the season finale's opening scene, and then Dr. Jenner's explanation-that-was-not-an-explanation, and several other scenes. However, I had a difficult time really feeling the absolute despair that Jenner's words were supposed to convey. All in all, FAR PREFERABLE to a cheesy cliffhanger, so I am well-satisfied until Season 2.

It won't happen simply for the fact that too much of the upcoming events are hinged on the fact that everyone who dies re-animates, regardless of cause of death. I am a big fan of this school of thought anyway, so I hope the cheesy "Virus" theory dies entirely in all Zombie movies. Besides, Viruses cannot survive in a dead host, so it always was a stupid plot device in general.

[Gemini]

Gonna go out on a limb here,
And say that TWD as a show may very well deviate from the Romero-ish "Everyone who dies, reanimates." For one thing, it complicates matters/plots without giving back enough value in return for the complication. I'm with you all on an unknown causes, but I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE this magical "The entire world population has responded biologically IN THE EXACT SAME WAY, to ANY outside stimulus." It's good enough for me that zombies pass on an Unknown Microbial Agent, Which Causes a 100% Terminal auto-immune/inflammatory response throughout the body's tissues, and then reactivates the brain stem as an anaerobic system, thus reanimating all exposed cadavers.

I mean, I know some people will fight to the death in defense of this plot device but, from an episode to episode, or even a season-wide perspective, what is really lost by dispensing with the harder-to-sustain suspension of disbelief plot device depicting all casualties in TWD world as subject to reanimation? I just don't see it.

Anyways, I enjoyed the season finale's opening scene, and then Dr. Jenner's explanation-that-was-not-an-explanation, and several other scenes. However, I had a difficult time really feeling the absolute despair that Jenner's words were supposed to convey. All in all, FAR PREFERABLE to a cheesy cliffhanger, so I am well-satisfied until Season 2.

I disagree for (2) reasons:

1.) bite only + shamblers = totally unrealistic global takeover. Without the dead pouring out of morgues, funeral homes, hospitals and the steady stream of the undead created from death by natural causes all over the world there is no F-ing way this plague would be any more than a macabre and occasionally deadly situation.

2.) This goes against canon in what is the greatest living dead film of all time, NOTLD '68. As I have backed up in other threads here the Venus probe and resulting radiation fallout was put forth in the film not as a "possible cause" but THE cause for the zombie menace. I don't care if GAR later back tracked. Not saying TWD needs to follow this canon, but the idea of some kind of global chemical fallout (OR act of God) is a cool idea and imo makes up for the almost comic vulnerabilities of shamblers.

I guess I have a 3rd reason and that is it greatly adds to the drama as not only would a bite cause a loved one to turn but death of any kind would also evoke the same human drama.

I do agree on one point - that the series is headed toward the 'bite only' theory. Which sucks.

---------- Post added at 06:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 PM ----------



As it was, it really didn't seem very dangerous out there at all?

That's my biggest problem. The danger does not seem to justify the desparation.

[CooperWasRight]

Were is all of the speculation coming from that the series is moving to a bite only rule? This would totally be breaking with the comic and Darabont's Night is the bible for him.

[MinionZombie]

Were is all of the speculation coming from that the series is moving to a bite only rule? This would totally be breaking with the comic and Darabont's Night is the bible for him.

Well of course, considering season one didn't end like Volume One of the comics, we won't yet get a chance to see if it's a 'any kind of death = zombie' situation - because Rick only figures that out in Volume 2 of the trade paperbacks (somewhere in issues 7 to 12).

[Neil]

That's my biggest problem. The danger does not seem to justify the desparation.

Yeh, like one minute being terrified in the city, and the next being able to get around it without a problem at all...

[BillyRay]

Yeh, like one minute being terrified in the city, and the next being able to get around it without a problem at all...

Maybe all the zombies went to the mall...

[EvilNed]

To be honest, on the topic that is: "lack of zombies", that is something that has distracted from the Pilot and onwards. Well, maybe not lack of zombies per-say, but in The Walking Dead the zombies don't seem to be the relentless homing missiles of slow death like they usually are. It's made pretty clear throughout the series that you can just avoid zombies by staying out of sight for a few hours. That just makes it so much easier avoiding them.

When zombies never, ever give up then escaping them becomes so much harder. You have to pick your hiding places with more ease. A huge facility like the CDC would make sense because there the zombies wouldn't see, hear or smell you down there in the basement. But a house (like in the pilot) would just be impossible to hide in, because there'd always be a way for them to spot you - either by smell, hearing or seeing. I like it that way. Makes the zombies scarier.

As it stands, the zombies in The Walking Dead aren't that scary. And that's been holding the series back from that extra mile of greatness. As it is now, it's a good series. But it's not great, methinks. Oh, and the "cover ourselves with entrails and avoid zombies" bit was just lame.

[Wyldwraith]

Something to remember,
The comic-TWD seems more source-material/guideline as its been used, rather than a plot arc by plot arc rendition of the comics. This being the case, it isn't uncalled for to wonder just where they'll deviate from the comics. One thing that Jenner's little show-and-tell demonstrated was that the "Unknown Agent" was INTRODUCED INTO the victim. He was EXPLICIT about this. This was the CDC, which was in contact with its sister agencies around the world until they too went dark. Don't you think a critical detail like "All of us are carriers of the Unknown Agent responsible for reactivating the brain-stem and jump-starting reanimation" would have been a ridiculous piece of info to leave out? NONE of these investigating scientific agencies discovered and conveyed this absolutely critical detail?

I don't want to go round and round about this YET AGAIN. Some people can't accept a pathogen/microbial agent as the responsible party for the undead, while others (like me) find their blithe acceptance of a completely global cause that all human beings respond to biologically in precisely the same manner just as incredulously unbelievable as they find the Pathogen Theory. And, for the record, QUITE A FEW virii are capable of remaining active (and transmissable) in a body that's been dead for up to (7) days, and still more sorts of virus can adopt a cyst/spore-like protein sheath, which allows them to survive otherwise unsurvivable (for them) environments, until they come into contact with another host.

As for needing all the dead rise as zombies to make a zombie apocalypse feasible, there's just as much error in the way the military is constantly depicted as being unable to hold even the most advantageous of bottlenecks/defensive position against an enemy incapable of adapting its line of attack due to changing circumstances.

For instance, again and AGAIN, we see the survivors in TWD moving past a sandbag machine-gun emplacement with a couple dead soldiers lying nearby. No problem, until you look around and only see 15-20 bodies which fell in a position suggestive of approaching the defensive position. Even if we assume the soldiers knew NOTHING about headshots being required (someone obviously knew before the hospital was lost, or there wouldn'tve been a loading bay full of sheet-wrapped corpses with gore-stains on the sheet over their head) a .50 machine-gun at close range would simply rip the undead bodies to the point they'd be rendered immobile. (How many center-mass .50 rounds need to hit before one smashes into the spine?)

So, the genre's staples are at times obviously not predicated on easing suspension of disbelief.

Still, I'm not a genre-Nazi. What suits me won't suit others and vice versa, and thats perfectly fine.

[Ghoulman]

And thank you for sucking the fun right out of the entire zombie genre for me... Sheldon! ;)

[bassman]

Don't you think a critical detail like "All of us are carriers of the Unknown Agent responsible for reactivating the brain-stem and jump-starting reanimation" would have been a ridiculous piece of info to leave out?

Yeah....that would be like not telling everyone that they'll be locked inside the next day while the building is incinerated. :lol:

[fishfast41]

Finally! I was able to find the time to watch TS-19. I think this entire series seriously kicks ass. every bit as good as the original trilogy in my opinion. Most everything I thought was off, or didnt make sense is already mentioned here, so I'll just point out what intrigued me. I absolutely loved the portrayal of Dr. Jenner. His speech to our heroes about why it would be better just to stay and be incinerated was great. You could really relate to his feelings of hopelessness and doom about the situation. His comment about this being "our extinction event" was perfect. The writers were right on here. Too bad he had to be incinerated, might have been a great character had he decided to accompany the group. What the heck, I'll comment on two things that don't make sense... I'm nowhere near as surprised at Carol having the grenade then I am at Rick's apparently not wondering what the heck happened to it. If I had a frag grenade, I'm pretty sure I would be keeping close track of it. I also think that they should have at least hinted or given some snippet ,or clue anythingggggg... about Morgan and Duane. Should at least have had a broken up message on the walkie talkie. As far as the cause of the Zombocalypse, I'd like to see it just be left as an Act of God,that no one ever figures out, as John says in "Day".I think that adds a good comment on our society, and also a feeling of finality, that that situation will not be fixable by man. OMG---Oct 2011?????????? AGHGHGHGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[acealive1]

did anyone besides me think jenner was gonna kill himself as soon as they saw him all dressed up sitting at his desk with a picture of his wife? i just knew it was coming.

---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 PM ----------


I think the only think that let TS-19 down were just a few walkers were required in some scenes. ie: After the *boom* there should have been a couple around (maybe one/two on fire)? And definately as they drove away, there should have been a good number heading towards the sound?

As it was, it really didn't seem very dangerous out there at all?



we saw the scene out there in front of the CDC, it looks like there was a full on massacre a week prior and all the zombies had moved on or been killed

[Wyldwraith]

That's part of what I'm talking about,
Everywhere you see signs of prior (now deserted) human holdout positions, you see three things. 1) A few dead soldiers. (Reasonable, the other dead ones got up and wandered away), 2) Sandbag machine-gun/grenade launcher emplacements around previously defended buildings and TANKS, 3) A LIGHT scattering of now-terminated zombies which were cut down during their off-screen approach of the defensive position.

When you put it all together, something just doesn't click. I mean, I'm TOTALLY OK WITH the idea the military (especially with units scattered thinly all over), could get overrun. Especially by the density of zombies that say, Rick ran into on horseback, or that were trying to break into the department store.

What I DON'T get is Darabont essentially saying "U.S combat troops are incapable of taking more than twice their number of slow, mindless, shambling and PREDICTABLE ghouls down before being overrun." I mean c'mon, they had TANKS. They could've just RUN THE DAMNED THINGS OVER. It's not like the zombies are gonna jump out of the way! And again, things like TWD and WWZ *really* underestimate the hideous power of high-caliber automatic weapons at close-range on the human body. There would be at least some corpses in PIECES. NOT maybe 3-5 unable-to-walk Walkers as depicted in all 6 episodes (and 2-3 of those during the Guts episode.)

I don't think it serves ANY collapse-of-society storyline justice when the police/military are depicted as easily-swept-aside straw tigers. I dilutes the "punch" of the impression "It just didn't matter how hard we fought, they took us down and ripped civilization apart while we watched, helpless no matter what lengths we went to."

That's just a general pet peeve though. Like I said before, other than wishing that Jenner's body language and tone had done a better job of being in synch with the absolute certainty-of-despair and hopelessness his words communicated. Some might say "He'd made his decision, and was at peace with what was about to happen." However, if it had just been him I could go with that really well. Yet, here he is, being engaged by people who, despite knowing what the outside world is like far better than HE DOES, still want very much to live and continue fighting to stay alive. We see him attempting to persuade them that they're just holding onto false hope, and it would be better if they just accepted the end, like he had. I just didn't see that ardent certainty in the man, as he talked about the futility of going on. The words were chilling in their content, so the scriptwriting was dead on. This is SQUARELY a criticism of the actor who portrayed Jenner, and HIS inability to lend a completely true-to-life feel to the great material written for his character.

Sentence by sentence, I loved Jenner and Rick's back and forth debate of Hope Vs. Hopelessness, with both convinced they are the one absolutely right. That was great. I felt that his dialog in TS-19 was some of Lincoln's best in the entire series to date, and really showed the wisdom in tapping him to portray such a pivotal character. Despite (or maybe because of) Rick's oft-maddening idealism and rigid do-rightness, the character has been one of my absolute favorite main protagonists in a zombie story, in any media. Right up there with "Adam" from Dunwoody's Empire. (That's a book series I'd LOVE to see make its way into a TV format, BTW.)

Had Jenner turned in an equally powerful performance while playing opposite Rick, it would've done a lot for the scene. Especially in light of the forcibly-locking-group-in plot device, and the sudden decision to commit suicide by the (admittedly superfluous) black woman. The Andrea/Dale exchange/back-and-forth felt much more lifelike than the African-American woman's sudden "I'm staying. Don't want to end up like Amy & the others"...., and I give due props to the actress and actor playing Andrea and Dale. Was REALLY one of Dale's best scenes, even if it was a plot-device I've seen multiple times elsewhere. Was done well, that's all that counts.

Really feel, after careful consideration, that Season 1 ended as strongly as it could, and both left the door flung wide for the plot to go anywhere in Season 2, and didn't leave us hanging for a year with our protagonists in dire/immediate jeopardy.

[EvilNed]

To be quite honest, considering the high amount of friendly fire we see going on in Iraq and Afghanistan these days, I find it totally realistic that the military wouldn't stand that much of a chance against the zombie hordes. Especially on home soil. Morale would drop fast, panic would ensue almost immediately. I mean this isn't brainwashed, psychotic and suicidal SS soldiers we're talking about, after all.

[Legion2213]

I have always said the military gets over run too quickly in zombiegeddon movies, if you come back from Iraq/Afghanistan/war zone where you've been killing living human beings for a living, shooting bags of meat isn't going to be a problem IMO. It would be nice to see a lot more terminated walkers lying around when we see any kind of abandoned/over run military position.

On the flip side, if we go with "reality", we end up with more of a "Shaun of the Dead" scenario...outbreak, bit of chaos, military starts doing what it does best and normality returns sooner rather than later. If we want full on Post Apocalypse scenario, we just have to accept that the military couldn't cope for one reason or another (logistics, bad leadership, no political will to let them do the job properly etc).

[ProfessorChaos]

let's just blame it on the politicians....

http://mtpundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/obama_zombies_motivator.jpg

[Thorn]

Maybe those that hate this episode can back to supporting Romero more recent and inferior work and leave those of us who enjoy the hell out of this series to talk about it in great lengths without hearing a bunch of BS about being cliched this or cliched that... Wanna talk cliched???? Watch anything Romero produced from LAND to SURVIVAL

Come on DJ, it is very possible for both offerings to be cliche. We do not need to say one is and one is not, and it is a matter of expressing opinion, people who are not a fan of one episode can still love and enjoy the show.

Again I do not understand that faction/divide thing here that you are reinforcing. I will say it again. I am a fan of both Romero and Kirkland. It is not only possible it makes sense since Kirkland was inspired by and pays tribute to George.

I humbly suggest people take a step back off of that line of thinking and understand we all have opinions and they are largely going to be very different. I liked this episode for the most part.

It was not my favorite, I thought the whole locking them inside to die angle and his motivation for doing so was very off. I also thought their response was not proportional. It was a bit forced, contrived, and unbelievable to me. Even if he had "gone mad" his stance on the subject was also hard to swallow and poorly motivated.

Does that mean I should leave this forum and only talk about Romero? Because I love both but can look at each with a critical eye and express my opinion honestly about each?

[MoonSylver]

Come on DJ, it is very possible for both offerings to be cliche. We do not need to say one is and one is not, and it is a matter of expressing opinion, people who are not a fan of one episode can still love and enjoy the show.

Again I do not understand that faction/divide thing here that you are reinforcing. I will say it again. I am a fan of both Romero and Kirkland. It is not only possible it makes sense since Kirkland was inspired by and pays tribute to George.

I humbly suggest people take a step back off of that line of thinking and understand we all have opinions and they are largely going to be very different. I liked this episode for the most part.

It was not my favorite, I thought the whole locking them inside to die angle and his motivation for doing so was very off. I also thought their response was not proportional. It was a bit forced, contrived, and unbelievable to me. Even if he had "gone mad" his stance on the subject was also hard to swallow and poorly motivated.

Does that mean I should leave this forum and only talk about Romero? Because I love both but can look at each with a critical eye and express my opinion honestly about each?

Nope. You're being too reasonable. You must pick one or the other, and then defend it visiously. That's how it works.

http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/moonsylver/fealty.jpg

http://icanhasinternets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/haters21.jpg

[Thorn]

LOL nice!

[Legion2213]

Nope. You're being too reasonable. You must pick one or the other, and then defend it visiously. That's how it works.

http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/moonsylver/fealty.jpg

Gold! :D

[Doc]

I have always said the military gets over run too quickly in zombiegeddon movies, if you come back from Iraq/Afghanistan/war zone where you've been killing living human beings for a living, shooting bags of meat isn't going to be a problem IMO. It would be nice to see a lot more terminated walkers lying around when we see any kind of abandoned/over run military position.

On the flip side, if we go with "reality", we end up with more of a "Shaun of the Dead" scenario...outbreak, bit of chaos, military starts doing what it does best and normality returns sooner rather than later. If we want full on Post Apocalypse scenario, we just have to accept that the military couldn't cope for one reason or another (logistics, bad leadership, no political will to let them do the job properly etc).

I guess the reason is that watching guys in tanks shoot zombies until they run out of ammunition then run the rest over in tanks wouldn't make a particularly entertaining series. I mean a few rag-tag survivors can fight off zombies with a few guns and yard tools while soldiers in tanks are over run. The hell?

A neighborhood block watch armed with claw hammers would be sufficient to take them down.

[bassman]

Agreed. But that goes back to whats been said before. They're TV/Movies. Not "zombie fan's survivalist wet dream"...

[EvilNed]

Why the military fails and small gangs prevail?

The Military are doing their job. Their job is to fight the zombies. Not only that, but at the "time of outbreak" where any military would be involved, they would also be dealing with larger and larger hordes of zombies. Eventually reaching armies of zombies that could be upwards 100,000. Maybe even a million. Small gangs (in films) never, ever face off against hordes of this size.

Also, whenever a "small gang" encounters a zombie threat to dangerous for them to handle, they simply get the hell out of there. Any military operation would be too big and too clumsy to make a decision like that. "We're here to protect the CDC." And that's what they're gonna do, at least for awhile. Finally, after awhile, they're gonna figure out that they are doomed and that's when the panic sets in - because there's really no plan B. Suddenly, for a few moments, it would turn into a "every man for himself"-situation. Panicking, or dead (or maybe even zombiefied), officers would do little to improvie morale in a situation like this.

An organized military, leaning on a clumsy hierarchy, is simply not the ideal gang to deal with a zombie invasion in your own homeyard.

[Gemini]

Yet another step down in quality from Ep 1., the series at first was very effective in showing insurmountable hordes of zombies which could overwhelm military forces (as evilned states above). If an entire city is literally 'dead' that would be very hard for any military to defeat, outside of use of WMD. They also had a nice thing going by depicting the zombies as slow at first but then picking up pace (even to near-running speeds) as they frenzy around prey. The menace was believable in Ep. 1 and even 2 but then dwindled to near zero as the series progressed.

Say what you will about Dawn '04 you can't deny those rabid ghouls would present a very real extinction event for humanity.

Looking forward to WWZ realistically depicting the feasibility of a shambler holocaust, that could very well be our Magnum Opus. And I imagine that project has only picked up speed in light of TWD's popularity?

[Legion2213]

Say what you will about Dawn '04 you can't deny those rabid ghouls would present a very real extinction event for humanity.

Looking forward to WWZ realistically depicting the feasibility of a shambler holocaust, that could very well be our Magnum Opus. And I imagine that project has only picked up speed in light of TWD's popularity?

I've said it before - Dawn 04 zombies are terrifying - Fast, aggressive and virtually unstoppable. Out of the various zombie types, they are the most likely to topple our civilisation IMO. I'd rather face 10 GAR/TWD shamblers than one Dawn 04 monster.

[Gemini]

I've said it before - Dawn 04 zombies are terrifying - Fast, aggressive and virtually unstoppable. Out of the various zombie types, they are the most likely to topple our civilisation IMO. I'd rather face 10 GAR/TWD shamblers than one Dawn 04 monster.

Agreed. A GAR holocaust almost seems "fun" (admit it, we're all a little sick lol).

A Dawn '04 holocaust - not fun at all, a complete nightmare!

[bassman]

A Dawn '04 holocaust - not fun at all, a complete nightmare!

Nah.....all you need is "shattaproof glass, assho!"

:p

[Sammich]

That's part of what I'm talking about,

What I DON'T get is Darabont essentially saying "U.S combat troops are incapable of taking more than twice their number of slow, mindless, shambling and PREDICTABLE ghouls down before being overrun." I mean c'mon, they had TANKS. They could've just RUN THE DAMNED THINGS OVER. It's not like the zombies are gonna jump out of the way! And again, things like TWD and WWZ *really* underestimate the hideous power of high-caliber automatic weapons at close-range on the human body. There would be at least some corpses in PIECES. NOT maybe 3-5 unable-to-walk Walkers as depicted in all 6 episodes (and 2-3 of those during the Guts episode.)

I don't think it serves ANY collapse-of-society storyline justice when the police/military are depicted as easily-swept-aside straw tigers. I dilutes the "punch" of the impression "It just didn't matter how hard we fought, they took us down and ripped civilization apart while we watched, helpless no matter what lengths we went to."



It puzzles me also. The marines at Khe Sanh held out for 77 days under siege and were being hit by ground forces, mortars, artillery and rocket attacks almost non stop.

Hell, the military could have just used mine clearing line charges to blow into bits big groups of zombies.

The only things I could see causing the military to fall apart is re-supply stopping and mass desertions, which GAR protrays in Dawn and Day. People can say all of the negative things they want about him, but he does think out believable backstories.

[Zombie Snack]

agreed. A gar holocaust almost seems "fun" (admit it, we're all a little sick lol).

A dawn '04 holocaust - not fun at all, a complete nightmare!

agreed

[Debbieangel]

It puzzles me also. The marines at Khe Sanh held out for 77 days under siege and were being hit by ground forces, mortars, artillery and rocket attacks almost non stop.

Hell, the military could have just used mine clearing line charges to blow into bits big groups of zombies.

The only things I could see causing the military to fall apart is re-supply stopping and mass desertions, which GAR protrays in Dawn and Day. People can say all of the negative things they want about him, but he does think out believable backstories.

ditto: well said... GAR is GREAT at backstories!!!

[Wyldwraith]

Many, MANY great points,
However, it's NOT like I don't understand that nearly all zombie movies/books (and now TV show) are focusing on the humans trying to survive in a world overrun by the dead. NOT a War of the Living Vs. The Undead. That SAID, I would WARMLY GREET some sign that such a horrendous battle for the fate of humanity took place by the time the camera starts showing us the slagged shell of ghoul-infested ruined civilization that is the setting of the genre's many offerings.

So, it's fair to say that actually filming, or expecting someone to film what amounts to a large Saving Private Ryan-scale battle versus the undead is both a) Non-feasible for most productions, and b) At cross-purposes to the story being told.

Again though, showing us a detail here or there that resonates with the logical aftermath of such a large-scale battle, ESPECIALLY for the high-priority human assets that we see survivors visit in the search for supplies quite frequently would NOT be at cross-purposes to the drama of the survivors situation, or beyond most productions. If Zach Snyder can come up with what appears to be a square-packed-mile of zombies so dense it looks like you could walk across their heads, then ANYONE could make it look like it cost the undead populace more to overrun a 2 machine-gun/1 grenade launcher, some riflemen and a guy with a SAW or 2 defensive position.

Ask yourself this, which is more horrifying. A shot of survivors coming upon dead/mangled soldiers only recognizable as such from their ripped and gore-stained uniforms laying inside a circle of sandbags, with concentric circles of mangled bodies piled 4-deep atop each other, without ANY of the street/parking lot's concrete beneath showing. Or, same sandbag fortification, same mangled soldier-bodies, and a dozen corpses around it, one here, one there?

Doesn't the first example just SCREAM the unrelenting horror that IT DIDN'T MATTER that the soldiers had the training, weapons, ammo, and great position. It DIDN'T MATTER that one group of 6-8 soldiers killed HUNDREDS/Couple thousand before being dragged down. The zombies just kept coming and coming and coming until barrels started to go from constant overheating. Ammo-related jams allowed a couple hundred to get close enough to start the beginning of the end, etc. THEN evidence of panic. THAT scene screams to me Unrelenting Menace.

The bodies of 12 men/women/children scattered one here, one there makes me go "Were these guys ALL Weekend Warriors? I mean, I know the REAL military is stretched pretty thing right now, but we couldn't muster even a few divisions to parcel out into smaller units to secure areas temporarily to facilitate civilian evacuations? The sheer lack of visual evidence that a battle of any significant occurred near/around the sandbag fortifications and tanks in TWD kinda made me feel like they were something of a visual tease.

Like Darabont was saying "Yea, I had the assets to make this look like one evil-ass nightmare of a battle went down on the perimeter of that hospital, but just didn't much feel like shooting that. Here's a parking lot full of stained-head-sheeted human-shaped lumps. Forget this is TV and the entire point of the medium is to conjure the story visually. Use your imagination to fill in the logical blanks...you know, like you do when you read a book?"

In my crankier/more nitpicky moments during 3-4th viewings of each TWD Ep. I'd think "Yea, I can use my imagination like that. Think I'll go re-read Empire, or see if Empire 2 is out yet. There's always the rest of the Autumn series, Rot & Ruin was great, and The Living Dead & The Living Dead 2 or the Mammoth Book of Zombies & Mammoth Book of Zombie Apocalypse always have some kickass stories."

Heck, there was one story in the Fiction Archive here. Something like Alema-137 (misspelled) that I thought had some absolutely AWESOME material that would feed right into something like a TS-19-style TWD Episode.

It's not just griping/whining you know? These are some things I mention because I'd genuinely love to see them depicted onscreen. Scenes I really enjoyed a ton in various books, and scenes hinted at by this or that movie. Don't think I'm alone here either. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much drooling every time news of a WWZ advancement towards hitting the big screen reaches us.

The Battle of Yonkers is, IMHO, the equivalent in the zombie apocalypse genre, of the huge battle outside Minas Tirith/Gondor was for The Return of the King in the Fantasy Genre.

Characterization, atmosphere, interpersonal interaction/conflict, plot pacing, etc etc are all wonderful and vital parts of a great show/movie/book of any sort. But now and then wouldn't being able to see at least the aftermath of the Badass Apocalyptic Battle in a Zombie Apocalypse be fun?

[MinionZombie]

Nah.....all you need is "shattaproof glass, assho!"

:p

:lol::lol: *high five* :lol::lol:

[krisvds]

C
Again I do not understand that faction/divide thing here that you are reinforcing. I will say it again. I am a fan of both Romero and Kirkland. It is not only possible it makes sense since Kirkland was inspired by and pays tribute to George.

I humbly suggest people take a step back off of that line of thinking and understand we all have opinions and they are largely going to be very different.

Does that mean I should leave this forum and only talk about Romero? Because I love both but can look at each with a critical eye and express my opinion honestly about each?

GREAT! I was beginning to think I was on my own with that line of thought. Phew!
@ moon: that's just fantastic. LMAO.

[Andy]

It puzzles me also. The marines at Khe Sanh held out for 77 days under siege and were being hit by ground forces, mortars, artillery and rocket attacks almost non stop.

Hell, the military could have just used mine clearing line charges to blow into bits big groups of zombies.

The only things I could see causing the military to fall apart is re-supply stopping and mass desertions, which GAR protrays in Dawn and Day. People can say all of the negative things they want about him, but he does think out believable backstories.

I think there's a difference between fighting an armed enemy and fighting unarmed civilians including women and children.. the psychological effect on the troops would be a massive moral drain couple that with dwindling ammo and most probably confused orders from superiors, i think thats what you guys are underestimating the effect a zombie apocalypse would have on the millitary. and thats on the ones who dont abandon the front line to try and save their families.

Anyway, just seen the last episode and it was fucking fantastic, i loved the opening with shane which really gave it a new twist to the whole shane/lori/rick situation and does make him a more sympathetic character all round.

The ending was fantastic too, i cant wait for the second series.. i wonder what the doctor told rick before they left CDC? im hyped up.. i want the second series now.

[MoonSylver]

. i wonder what the doctor told rick before they left CDC? im hyped up.. i want the second series now.


I have a theory
"...Rosebuuuuud...." :lol:

[bassman]

After the blood tests and all, I think he was telling him what any reader of the comics can guess....

[kidgloves]

After the blood tests and all, I think he was telling him what any reader of the comics can guess....

Ah yes. But who was feeling feint and being sick in this episode. Hmmmmm.

[MoonSylver]

After the blood tests and all, I think he was telling him what any reader of the comics can guess....

Dude, Shane fucked your wife. :lol:

[bassman]

Ah yes. But who was feeling feint and being sick in this episode. Hmmmmm.

I thought that was because she was freaking out over "It's all gone!"?

[kidgloves]

I thought that was because she was freaking out over "It's all gone!"?

That's what I thought but there are so many fucking loose ends who knows. Would be a good a curveball but then it would fuck up another storyline so it seems unlikely. I can't work out whether things like this are seeds being planted for future seasons or just shit writing.

[MoonSylver]

I can't work out whether things like this are seeds being planted for future seasons or just shit writing.

Or maybe they're just messing with your mind...

http://www.notempire.com/images/uploads/optical_illusions-detail_image.jpg

[Wyldwraith]

Maybe,
In the long-term the Morale Drain Theory, coupled with dwindling supplies and desertion could very well compromise a military position. No one is disputing that. What's in dispute is the way that 99% of zombie movies and TWD, whenever they show the site of a military vs. zombies battle, it looks like it took about 2-3 minutes for the zombies to finish off the soldiers. There's just NEVER enough bodies to indicate any sort of prolonged character to the battle.

I mean, what about before the soldiers are out of anti-personnel-type explosives? No, a grenade probably won't terminate many zombies, but it'll break up a crowd. And Claymore mines? Going off literally inches in front of a densely packed small horde? Yes, the military unit would soon run out of these things if re-supply wasn't forthcoming, but they are trained to maximize the death toll of enemy forces with what they've got. One of the military branches has a saying: "Endure, Adapt, Overcome."

Point is, that even if EVERY negative factor you described came into play, it STILL wouldn't render the military unit(s) inoperative until well after the first wave of Walkers were destroyed. Hell, ONE sniper on a secured rooftop could kill dozens alone. Doesn't take much scope-doping to headshot a target moving at a crawl thats 100ft away when you're trained to hit targets at 3/4ths of a mile standard, under cover, moving unpredictably, with variable wind and visibility conditions. If a sniper can get a terrorist running for his life, he can hit any zombie he chooses. Snipers ALSO keep track of EVERY BIT OF DATA concerning their activities. 2 shots max before the Sniper has analyzed his hit results and determined center-mass is ineffective.

Could go on and on and on. What about a SINGLE Cobra, Apache or A-10 Thunderbolt dispatched for close-support of a cordoning force securing a perimeter behind which a civilian evacuation is occurring? Say what you want, but I don't believe the majority of people who choose to give over their freedom for a time to serve their country and people would abandon thousands/tens of thousands of defenseless women, children and elderly to be devoured. Yes, the urge to protect their own families would be powerful...but abandon their post and their comrades?

What about Semper Fi, Do or Die?

[Tricky]

I guess thats what makes the 28 days later scenario more plausible (yes I know they werent real zombies), the military were overrun by the speed of the infected, but they still put up a good fight, as shown in the scene when they attack the mansion house that the soldiers are holding up in.

[shootemindehead]

What about Semper Fi, Do or Die?

What about it?

None of those mottos mean shit when the whole show is going to hell. At some point it becomes a matter of self-preservation and by that I include ones concern for family members and loved ones etc. IMO, the majority WOULD cut and run when they see the utter pointlessness of the situation. There comes a point, when the odds are so overwhelmingly stacked against you that it makes no sense to hold out.

The problems you seem to be having are born out of budget constraints, though. I'm sure the producers would have loved 2000+ extras to play dead over an extended shoot in 38c degree heat. Unfortunately, that's a big ask.

[EvilNed]

I doubt the military would have been as effective as some seem to think. Especially considering the situation. Zombies invade your country and chew down civilians everywhere. There would be massive desertions, all across the armed forces. And massive confusion as well.

[MinionZombie]

My full thoughts on the episode:

http://deadshed.blogspot.com/2010/12/walking-dead-episode-six-ts-19-thoughts.html


And so the best thing to happen in the zombie genre since Romero's Day of the Dead comes to the end of its first season, and therefore I can't wait for the season season to begin (and for a full 13 episodes too).

This season closer though was rather good though. Last week's episode led us on the greatest departure from the source material yet, and this week's episode gave us the meat and potatoes of that departure.

TS-19 shared some vibes with Dawn, and Day of the Dead - the false sense of security of the former, and the dire realisation of the latter. Indeed, the exploration of the scientific approach to analysing the zombie outbreak featured in the episode felt like a modern update of Doc Logan's work from Day, so as a big fan of that flick it was great to see a 21st century take on it.

Similar to the fifth episode, this one again proved that TWD is about the people, not the zombies. It could be any world-ending cataclysm, or any monster, really - as it's all supposed to be about the people - indeed towards the end as everyone's facing their possible doom, we get some great moments thrown into the mix, such as Carol's desperate fear, and Jacqui's life changing decision.

TWD has always been a case of - who they were, how they deal with the horrors around them, and who they gradually become. As such it's a slower paced episode, but it's all to do with the characters - so for those into the human drama of the franchise, this was a spiffing season closer (but the action and zombie fans get a jolt towards the end appropriately enough).

Once TS-19 got into its second half it really became about the idea of giving up, and it was portrayed convincingly and chillingly. Jenner proved to be an interesting late addition to the show - and indeed an entirely new addition to the franchise - and his plight was dealt with in an interesting manner. He wasn't some wild eyed loon, or some totally shut-down doomsayer - he had different shades of his attitude throughout, which made him a much more believable character than he might have otherwise been in lesser hands.

In terms of it being a season closer, in addition to a tip-top scene between Andrea and Dale (Holden and DeMunn - both acting their arses off, and further cementing my love of both characters), it wasn't just a big tease for season two. Naturally I wanted to know what happens right after the big closing moment, but equally I wasn't left hanging in the wind - so it was a satisfying blend of the two.

To summarise the season as a whole, it hasn't been perfect - some scenes had wonky dialogue, or some elements didn't convince or intrigue ... such as the opening scene, and titular gang, of episode four "Vatos" ... and on occasion the pacing has been a bit off here and there during episodes, but I'm very pleased with the season over all.

Rick is a strong character, and having read the first four trade paperbacks (so far), it'll be interesting to see how Lincoln's take on the do-right law man will develop as Rick is faced with increasingly trying and complicated circumstances. The Rick/Shane plotline should also develop nicely during the second season, which should ultimately make for some good family drama with Lori and Carl.

Glenn has been a real treat throughout the season, but especially in his earlier episodes, and he remains one of my favourite characters in the show - however Andrea and particularly Dale have really stolen my interest most. I can't wait to see how their characters develop during the second season. Daryl Dixon has also been a pleasant surprise - after an initially underwhelming introduction that drew him as a generic redneck racist, he was allowed to grow in episode four (and beyond) to become a useful member of the group (albeit a hot headed and unpredictable one).

I could go on, but instead of rambling I'll re-confirm my assertion that The Walking Dead has been the best thing to happen to the zombie genre since Romero's Day of the Dead, and it's all the better for featuring zombies that don't effin' run!

Here's hoping the DVD/BR box set release will be a good one with plenty of extra content!

[Gemini]

Many, MANY great points,
However, it's NOT like I don't understand that nearly all zombie movies/books (and now TV show) are focusing on the humans trying to survive in a world overrun by the dead. NOT a War of the Living Vs. The Undead. That SAID, I would WARMLY GREET some sign that such a horrendous battle for the fate of humanity took place by the time the camera starts showing us the slagged shell of ghoul-infested ruined civilization that is the setting of the genre's many offerings.

So, it's fair to say that actually filming, or expecting someone to film what amounts to a large Saving Private Ryan-scale battle versus the undead is both a) Non-feasible for most productions, and b) At cross-purposes to the story being told.

Again though, showing us a detail here or there that resonates with the logical aftermath of such a large-scale battle, ESPECIALLY for the high-priority human assets that we see survivors visit in the search for supplies quite frequently would NOT be at cross-purposes to the drama of the survivors situation, or beyond most productions. If Zach Snyder can come up with what appears to be a square-packed-mile of zombies so dense it looks like you could walk across their heads, then ANYONE could make it look like it cost the undead populace more to overrun a 2 machine-gun/1 grenade launcher, some riflemen and a guy with a SAW or 2 defensive position.

Ask yourself this, which is more horrifying. A shot of survivors coming upon dead/mangled soldiers only recognizable as such from their ripped and gore-stained uniforms laying inside a circle of sandbags, with concentric circles of mangled bodies piled 4-deep atop each other, without ANY of the street/parking lot's concrete beneath showing. Or, same sandbag fortification, same mangled soldier-bodies, and a dozen corpses around it, one here, one there?

Doesn't the first example just SCREAM the unrelenting horror that IT DIDN'T MATTER that the soldiers had the training, weapons, ammo, and great position. It DIDN'T MATTER that one group of 6-8 soldiers killed HUNDREDS/Couple thousand before being dragged down. The zombies just kept coming and coming and coming until barrels started to go from constant overheating. Ammo-related jams allowed a couple hundred to get close enough to start the beginning of the end, etc. THEN evidence of panic. THAT scene screams to me Unrelenting Menace.

The bodies of 12 men/women/children scattered one here, one there makes me go "Were these guys ALL Weekend Warriors? I mean, I know the REAL military is stretched pretty thing right now, but we couldn't muster even a few divisions to parcel out into smaller units to secure areas temporarily to facilitate civilian evacuations? The sheer lack of visual evidence that a battle of any significant occurred near/around the sandbag fortifications and tanks in TWD kinda made me feel like they were something of a visual tease.

Like Darabont was saying "Yea, I had the assets to make this look like one evil-ass nightmare of a battle went down on the perimeter of that hospital, but just didn't much feel like shooting that. Here's a parking lot full of stained-head-sheeted human-shaped lumps. Forget this is TV and the entire point of the medium is to conjure the story visually. Use your imagination to fill in the logical blanks...you know, like you do when you read a book?"

In my crankier/more nitpicky moments during 3-4th viewings of each TWD Ep. I'd think "Yea, I can use my imagination like that. Think I'll go re-read Empire, or see if Empire 2 is out yet. There's always the rest of the Autumn series, Rot & Ruin was great, and The Living Dead & The Living Dead 2 or the Mammoth Book of Zombies & Mammoth Book of Zombie Apocalypse always have some kickass stories."

Heck, there was one story in the Fiction Archive here. Something like Alema-137 (misspelled) that I thought had some absolutely AWESOME material that would feed right into something like a TS-19-style TWD Episode.

It's not just griping/whining you know? These are some things I mention because I'd genuinely love to see them depicted onscreen. Scenes I really enjoyed a ton in various books, and scenes hinted at by this or that movie. Don't think I'm alone here either. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much drooling every time news of a WWZ advancement towards hitting the big screen reaches us.

The Battle of Yonkers is, IMHO, the equivalent in the zombie apocalypse genre, of the huge battle outside Minas Tirith/Gondor was for The Return of the King in the Fantasy Genre.

Characterization, atmosphere, interpersonal interaction/conflict, plot pacing, etc etc are all wonderful and vital parts of a great show/movie/book of any sort. But now and then wouldn't being able to see at least the aftermath of the Badass Apocalyptic Battle in a Zombie Apocalypse be fun?

Great post.

---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 AM ----------


I think there's a difference between fighting an armed enemy and fighting unarmed civilians including women and children.. the psychological effect on the troops would be a massive moral drain couple that with dwindling ammo and most probably confused orders from superiors, i think thats what you guys are underestimating the effect a zombie apocalypse would have on the millitary. and thats on the ones who dont abandon the front line to try and save their families.



Amen to this. Also add to this the sheer multitudes - MILLIONS of mindless, never tiring, never resting, ever advancing armies not prone to any of the psychological frailties mortals have in heated combat

---------- Post added at 05:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 AM ----------


What about it?

None of those mottos mean shit when the whole show is going to hell. At some point it becomes a matter of self-preservation and by that I include ones concern for family members and loved ones etc. IMO, the majority WOULD cut and run when they see the utter pointlessness of the situation. There comes a point, when the odds are so overwhelmingly stacked against you that it makes no sense to hold out.

The problems you seem to be having are born out of budget constraints, though. I'm sure the producers would have loved 2000+ extras to play dead over an extended shoot in 38c degree heat. Unfortunately, that's a big ask.

A lot of people here keep talking about desertion to protect loved ones and family, but the truth is, the military conditions, trains and programs its soldiers for country to be #1, and family a distant 2nd

[EvilNed]

A lot of people here keep talking about desertion to protect loved ones and family, but the truth is, the military conditions, trains and programs its soldiers for country to be #1, and family a distant 2nd

Yeah... I'm sure that's all well and good, but that's just not how this would play out. Unlike any other war, there wouldn't be a "front". The "front" would be outside your home, in the streets, in your yard. In a situation like this any "love for your country" would be pointless, and that would become incredibly apparent to anyone, soldier or not, as soon as they figure this shit out.

[Legion2213]

I'd think that most soldiers understand that the enemy is defeated by taking the fight to them and destroying any threat, not making a last stand at your home with cobbled together weapons and flimsy defenses.

[shootemindehead]

A lot of people here keep talking about desertion to protect loved ones and family, but the truth is, the military conditions, trains and programs its soldiers for country to be #1, and family a distant 2nd

Training rarely survives reality. People adapt and overcome and that will sometimes mean getting the fuck outta dodge.

The "reality" that the army is facing here is not that their country might be occupied by an enemy force or that they might have to simply give up a piece of ground. It's that the slow lumbering, hard to kill, already dead, force that's lurching toward the gun emplacement is going to eat the country.

[mpokera]

Firstly, very well said Wyldwraith, thats almost exacxtly how I imagine it would look. I think most heavily defended points would consist of enormous piles of zombie remains. Many in bits and pieces scattered in fans out from the strongpoint. After thinking about it more I have a theory. What if when the dead first began to rise, they moved much more quickly. Something like in Dawn 04, that would explain the military resistance being wiped out without huge piles of zombie corpses. With running zombies it would be over pretty quickly, one of the reasons I dont care for them. If the Dead can run, jump, climb etc but still only be destroyed by brain trauma, we are all screwed and in short order. But maybe after the initial burst of energy expended the decay etc made them move more slowly? Tho in episode 2 we did see them run and climb when sufficiently motivated.

[Andy]

Training rarely survives reality. People adapt and overcome and that will sometimes mean getting the fuck outta dodge.

The "reality" that the army is facing here is not that their country might be occupied by an enemy force or that they might have to simply give up a piece of ground. It's that the slow lumbering, hard to kill, already dead, force that's lurching toward the gun emplacement is going to eat the country.

I Agree with shootemindehead, another point is that at least in the beginnings of a outbreak, the army would be moving civilians into shelters including the injured (and infected) which means that at some stage, they are going to be attacked from both sides. Also when the order comes down from above to kill the infected, how well is an order to shoot sick and injured unarmed women and children going to be taken by soldiers whos moral is already going to be through the floor?

In case i didnt emphasize it enough before, the psychological impact a zombie outbreak would put upon the millitary is unfathonable, you couldnt compare the situation the army would be put in to any known warfare that has ever happened before. All procedure and training would go straight out of the window in the first few days. And i think in the brief glimpses of the millitary we see in the walking dead, this is shown perfectly and think its also demonstrated in dawn and in day.

[EvilNed]

In case i didnt emphasize it enough before, the psychological impact a zombie outbreak would put upon the millitary is unfathonable, you couldnt compare the situation the army would be put in to any known warfare that has ever happened before. All procedure and training would go straight out of the window in the first few days. And i think in the brief glimpses of the millitary we see in the walking dead, this is shown perfectly and think its also demonstrated in dawn and in day.

Word, brother.

[MinionZombie]

Also, when you think about it, look at a war like Vietnam - not like the 'traditional' type such as World War 2 - and look at the damage it did psychologically to an entire nation, and to the men who were shipped out there to fight.

As Andy said, make it 'yours family, friends, and neighbours eating each other and coming for you next' and you'd have mass confusion, panic, and terror. Also, look at the likes of Swine Flu and other viral troubles that have caused panic and fear in relatively much smaller scale circumstances. When you've got bodies walking out of morgues and eating people across the nation, your people are gonna have a shit fit of epic proportions.

Also, add in the personal survival instinct - just as Robert Rodriguez's own doctor said (who was in Planet Terror, and Machete) in concerns to the virus in Planet Terror - RR asked him 'what would you do in this situation' and the Doctor said, in all seriousness, that he'd get the hell out of there when he saw there was nothing that could be done to stem the flow.

Multiply that across an entire population and you're effed-in-the-ay.

[Wyldwraith]

All excellent points,
But rewind a bit. BEFORE the military gets hit by the infected civilians who have turned from inside and the zombies from outside. BEFORE a HUGE % of a major city is undead, gathered and headed for the few locations the military secured. BEFORE all this evidence of how hopeless it all is filters down to the common rifleman.

The first engagements of any significance (by significance I mean an engagement with a strong chance of destroying many zombies), are going to be at/against the outermost defensive positions of the concentric-rings-style defensive position. The kind of deployment a brigade/division might use to say, secure the area around a major bridge they are funneling civilians across before they intend to blow the bridge.

Or what about the very high-priority assets. The ones the military deems worth "holding at any cost"?

Both of these scenarios would AT THE BEGINNING of the shit REALLY hitting the fan, be essentially Dug-in Military Forces, with extensive anti-personnel explosives at chokepoints and overlapping fields of fire from multiple machine-guns VERSUS say, 1,000 zombies. (About what you might expect to pour out of a now-zombified neighborhood, overrun hospital, emergency shelter etc.)

In order to work up to the factors that all of you describe as being the reasons the military loses, we must FIRST proceed through the situations that precede it all coming off the rails and the bottom falling out.

Or, lets even say that NOT ONE GROUND UNIT accomplished ANYTHING of significance. The zombie hordes have now massed, and consist of 90-95% of Atlanta's former population, and are surging north in huge concentrations pursuing withdrawing military and fleeing civilians from northern Georgia. Explain away the fact that there is always ZERO AIR SUPPORT for the military in EVERY DAMNED DEPICTION of zombies vs. military?

It's not like it takes hours to re-arm, fuel (with extra drop-tanks if they must be scrambled from an extended distance) and scramble various types of fighters capable of dropping 500-1000lbs bombs, Hellfire-type devices, Thermobaric devices....or just good old fashioned air-to-ground missiles (in the case of jets) or something like Shrike rockets (in the case of attack choppers).

Yea, you can come up with reasons why it always works out this way, but that isnt necessarily the way it'd be. Respect the awful power of 21st century ordinance if you refuse to respect the soldiers courage/commitment. (And YES, SOMEWHERE ON A DAMNED CARRIER, THERE WOULD STILL BE JETS AND PILOTS TO FLY THEM.)

K, getting a lil frustrated, so time to take a bit of a hiatus from thread.

[shootemindehead]

Ok...

As I've said before, what you're complaining about here is a budget constraint. Producers of zombie movies are usually working off of a low (or non-existent) source of funds. It's not that the makers of these movies don't believe that there wouldn't be running battles in various parts of the globe. It just comes down to the fact that there just isn't the money there to show it. So instead they show evidence of small unit action (as in The Walking Dead) or not at all, leaving it to the imagination of the viewer.

[bassman]

So instead they show evidence of small unit action (as in The Walking Dead) or not at all, leaving it to the imagination of the viewer.

Now you're just asking for too much out of modern audiences. :p

It needs to be shown and specifically detailed or else it didn't happen..

[darth los]

Now you're just asking for too much out of modern audiences. :p

It needs to be shown and specifically detailed or else it didn't happen..

Dude, if it didn't happen on camera it's like it didn't happen. (Now where have I heard that before?:confused:)

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

:cool:

[Tricky]

I think maybe folk are trying to go too deep with this, lets face it if the military in TWD were as effective as they are in the real world, we wouldnt have a zombie series because the initial zombie outbreak would be quickly contained. I think just accepting TWD's fictional reality without trying to compare it to real life is the key to enjoying the series a lot more. It needs to be grounded in reality as much as it can for sure, but certain artistic license can be applied, especially with regards the military response.

[Andy]

All excellent points,
But rewind a bit. BEFORE the military gets hit by the infected civilians who have turned from inside and the zombies from outside. BEFORE a HUGE % of a major city is undead, gathered and headed for the few locations the military secured. BEFORE all this evidence of how hopeless it all is filters down to the common rifleman.

The first engagements of any significance (by significance I mean an engagement with a strong chance of destroying many zombies), are going to be at/against the outermost defensive positions of the concentric-rings-style defensive position. The kind of deployment a brigade/division might use to say, secure the area around a major bridge they are funneling civilians across before they intend to blow the bridge.

Or what about the very high-priority assets. The ones the military deems worth "holding at any cost"?

Both of these scenarios would AT THE BEGINNING of the shit REALLY hitting the fan, be essentially Dug-in Military Forces, with extensive anti-personnel explosives at chokepoints and overlapping fields of fire from multiple machine-guns VERSUS say, 1,000 zombies. (About what you might expect to pour out of a now-zombified neighborhood, overrun hospital, emergency shelter etc.)

In order to work up to the factors that all of you describe as being the reasons the military loses, we must FIRST proceed through the situations that precede it all coming off the rails and the bottom falling out.

Or, lets even say that NOT ONE GROUND UNIT accomplished ANYTHING of significance. The zombie hordes have now massed, and consist of 90-95% of Atlanta's former population, and are surging north in huge concentrations pursuing withdrawing military and fleeing civilians from northern Georgia. Explain away the fact that there is always ZERO AIR SUPPORT for the military in EVERY DAMNED DEPICTION of zombies vs. military?

It's not like it takes hours to re-arm, fuel (with extra drop-tanks if they must be scrambled from an extended distance) and scramble various types of fighters capable of dropping 500-1000lbs bombs, Hellfire-type devices, Thermobaric devices....or just good old fashioned air-to-ground missiles (in the case of jets) or something like Shrike rockets (in the case of attack choppers).

Yea, you can come up with reasons why it always works out this way, but that isnt necessarily the way it'd be. Respect the awful power of 21st century ordinance if you refuse to respect the soldiers courage/commitment. (And YES, SOMEWHERE ON A DAMNED CARRIER, THERE WOULD STILL BE JETS AND PILOTS TO FLY THEM.)

K, getting a lil frustrated, so time to take a bit of a hiatus from thread.

Im assuming from the way that your speak that your either in the millitary or you come from a millitary family, and beleive me, we are not intentionally disrespecting the armed forces but there's so many factors, the moral drain alone is but one.

Another factor to consider is at what stage of a zombie apocalypse does the government get itself together and call the millitary in? Remember at first incident, zombie attacks are going to be reported as murders, serial murders and eventually riots.. The civilian police force are going to try to handle this for a long time before the millitary get the order, you look at the recent riots in england in our capital city, and members of our royal family where attacked and the millitary still where not called in. By the time our boys in green get the call and are deployed to cities across the country, the shit is already going to have hit the fan.

Also high prioirty targets, buildings which the millitary will want to hold at any cost are going to be government buildings like the CDC, possibly the pentagon, army and airforce bases and your right enough these places are going to be the last to hold out, but while the millitary is encircled and running itself out of supplies, the zombie numbers are going to be multiplying by the second.

As for air support and possible bombing, i personally dont think any government in the world will order bombing on its own soil until it really is all lost, in the early stages no government will consider this as a option. Dropping off tanks and stuff is another matter, its all good but again, i dont think a government is readilly going to deply anti-personel and heavy weaponary for use against civilians until it really is too late, and by that stage i think alot of pilots will either have either desserted to be with their families or be dead.

We're not saying the millitary would be incompetant or not commited, im sure they would do their best but at the end of the day i wouldnt count on the army to save me purely becuase a zombie apocolypse is not comparable to any other kind of warfare, it is not what the millitary are trained to deal with.. your not fighting a enemy for king and country, your trying to protect civilians from other civilians, your being asked to shoot the sick and infirm, your unsure where or who your going to get attack from next, your fighting a enemy that could be anyone around you, men, women, children, the elderly, the disabled.. your getting confused orders, yoursupplies are dwindling, your worried about your own family and friends.. above all else your fighting an enemy who never gets tired and relentlessly advances 24/7, who cannot be reasoned with, cannot be bargained with or surrendered to and has no other goal than to rip the flesh off your bones with its own teeth.

Not that the millitary would be incompetant or ill-commited but they would be misinformed, badly supplied and thrown into a shitstorm the likes of which they have never been trained for, prepared for and nobody in human history has ever had to face before.

[MinionZombie]

Ok...

As I've said before, what you're complaining about here is a budget constraint. Producers of zombie movies are usually working off of a low (or non-existent) source of funds. It's not that the makers of these movies don't believe that there wouldn't be running battles in various parts of the globe. It just comes down to the fact that there just isn't the money there to show it. So instead they show evidence of small unit action (as in The Walking Dead) or not at all, leaving it to the imagination of the viewer.

Damn straight. Well said.

[AcesandEights]

This has certainly been an...interesting thread, once again ;)

Have to agree with Shootem and Andy, though I do sympathize with some of the points Wyld makes.

That said, if one wanted to make a passable distance shot of a horde of zombies that had been mowed down by gun emplacements wouldn't it be best to either use CGI, some very basic obfuscation or a semblance of the two?

For example, take a few dozen sandbags spread out over 30 foot radius liberally (does not need to cover whole area side to side, these are just used to add depth), cover with old clothes, insert dressed dummies over top as a third layer (maybe two dozen, as a guess) and then liberally add real zombie extras over top for heads up and profile facial shots. Trail 'dead zed' actors around the perimeter you've created liberally. You now have a 60 foot wide mound (and suitably sparser periphery of corpses) of a zombie horde that has been gunned down by a few M60s (or whatever) ready for a distant crane shot.

[Gemini]

I think maybe folk are trying to go too deep with this, lets face it if the military in TWD were as effective as they are in the real world, we wouldnt have a zombie series because the initial zombie outbreak would be quickly contained. I think just accepting TWD's fictional reality without trying to compare it to real life is the key to enjoying the series a lot more. It needs to be grounded in reality as much as it can for sure, but certain artistic license can be applied, especially with regards the military response.

For me, personally, the only unbelievable element of good zombie fiction that I can look past is the single fact of the dead returning to life. The rest has to be entirely believable. That's why this debate is so fascinating - is a zombie holocaust feasible or not?

[MoonSylver]

Here's the thing IMO, nearly any work of (genre) fiction, falls apart into implausibility, if examined TOO closely. In this case familiarity DOES breed contempt. Sometimes there are things that, if you're to enjoy the entire package, you have to accept "as-read" & move on, & not get hung up on the details.

In this case the premise is:the military fell. How? Dunno. Don't care. Moving on...it's what happens AFTER that concerns us usually in that part of the story.

Is it fun to speculate & draw conjecture about? Sure. But at the end of the day, one can either just accept that it DID happen, SOMEHOW, for WHATEVER reason & move on, or not. :)

Now, if you to make a movie where you actually SHOW it happening, yeaaah...you'd better REALLY think it out & present it in a plausible manor.

[shootemindehead]

Now you're just asking for too much out of modern audiences. :p

HEY!!!

I'm modern!

http://dsphotographic.com/g2/15058-3/Howarth+1940s+Weekend+-+006.jpg

[Mike70]

wow. some of you are looking into this way, way too deeply. i'm with the skipster: most (in fact pretty much all) works of fiction are implausible on some level. why? because it's fiction! it is created from the mind of a single person (or a few persons) and has no connection to the flow of events in the real world or how events actually unfold in the real world. none at all, thus the fucking word fiction.

besides that, many of the posts in this thread are obnoxiously long, overblown, over thought and just plain over the top. with that, i am done with this bit of post-apocalyptic fantasy.

---------- Post added at 08:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 AM ----------



http://dsphotographic.com/g2/15058-3/Howarth+1940s+Weekend+-+006.jpg

that's...just the way i've always pictured you.:D

[mpokera]

I mean, sure we are obviously overanalyzing a tv show. But we are all here because we love the subject and enjoy speculating about how it would really be/look. And not like we have any new episodes to talk about for freaking ever lol.
I loved the show and think its the best thing on tv in a loooong time, doesnt mean I cant nitpick occasionally or speculate on how it could be even better.

[Andy]

I mean, sure we are obviously overanalyzing a tv show. But we are all here because we love the subject and enjoy speculating about how it would really be/look. And not like we have any new episodes to talk about for freaking ever lol.
I loved the show and think its the best thing on tv in a loooong time, doesnt mean I cant nitpick occasionally or speculate on how it could be even better.

My thoughts exactly, nitpicking is the hallmark of a good fan.

[Mike70]

nitpicking is the hallmark of a good fan.

or of an annoying purist. there is a very thin line between the two sometimes.

[darth los]

My thoughts exactly, nitpicking is the hallmark of a good fan.


I mean, sure we are obviously overanalyzing a tv show. But we are all here because we love the subject and enjoy speculating about how it would really be/look. And not like we have any new episodes to talk about for freaking ever lol.
I loved the show and think its the best thing on tv in a loooong time, doesnt mean I cant nitpick occasionally or speculate on how it could be even better.

Agreed. Some of the best times I've had on here had to do with speculating about various films and scenarios within the genre.

I was under the impression that's why we were here. To geek out on zombies with other like minded individuals since it can be pretty rare to find someone who is as into it as we are in "real life".

:cool:

[AcesandEights]

or of an annoying purist. there is a very thin line between the two sometimes.

I can agree with that.

My main annoyance is when people get upset, find fault or ah-ha over lack of spoon fed info. Quite often it seems like there's plenty of probable positive assumptions or possibilities available, yet people jump right to the negative and overlook the possible or the completely likely. I've seen a lot of that over this season's discussions.

[darth los]

My thoughts exactly, nitpicking is the hallmark of a good fan.


I mean, sure we are obviously overanalyzing a tv show. But we are all here because we love the subject and enjoy speculating about how it would really be/look. And not like we have any new episodes to talk about for freaking ever lol.
I loved the show and think its the best thing on tv in a loooong time, doesnt mean I cant nitpick occasionally or speculate on how it could be even better.

Or it could be that some get annoyed way too easily.

Keep on speculating people. I'm having a blast. And for those who aren't they don't have to read it as I suspect their problems are way worse than what's going on on the boards.

Heavens forbid something we discuss at length something that gives us joy cause lord knows that's at a premium now days.

MulDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNN!!

http://goregirl.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/survival-of-the-dead3.jpg

:cool:

[Andy]

I Agree with darth los entirely, if you dont like the deep nitpicking topics then dont read them or reply to them. Nobody is forcing you to.

For me, the fun of a zombie movie is picking it, talking about how things played out, how things could play out, what went wrong, what could of been done better and like darth said, to find someone interested in such a obscure almost cult subgenre to the depth we have become, is very rare and is one of the beauties of a site like this.

[BillyRay]

Admittedly, I do some eye-rolling when the nitpicking gets out of hand, but Andy's right. If there's a place to get that way about Zombie cinema (or TV), this is it.

Besides, there's more than one person on this site that makes their own movie if they don't like what's out there...

[bassman]

My thoughts exactly, nitpicking is the hallmark of a good fan.

You must be a HUUUUGE fan of Land. :lol::p

[darth los]

You must be a HUUUUGE fan of Land. :lol::p

By that logic so must deej. And there's no bigger fan than MZ when it comes to Dawn 04'. :lol:

Hey, I kinda like this bizzaro line of logic.

:cool:

[Andy]

You must be a HUUUUGE fan of Land. :lol::p


By that logic so must deej.

Me and DJ are the founders and co-presidents of the fan club :elol:

[darth los]

They're not only the Land hater club presidents but they're also clients!

+1 for whoever gets where that line is from.

Without google that is.

:cool:

[bassman]

DJ could be a member of both those clubs! :p

And how can anyone NOT remember that commercial? I might be able to remember the damn 1-800 number if you give me a minute. :lol:

[darth los]

DJ could be a member of both those clubs! :p

And how can anyone NOT remember that commercial? I might be able to remember the damn 1-800 number if you give me a minute. :lol:

is it 1-800-Matress.

No wait 1800- Lawyers?

No, that's not it either.

Oh wait...

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/9/30/128672739677179356.jpg

Kinda irrelavent but still funny.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/5/50/Hairy_rosie.jpg

:cool:

[kidgloves]

You've only got to look at the beginning of Dawn to understand how this shit could get out of hand. The scenes in the projects buildings paint as good a picture of how people would react as anyone could imagine.
Confusion. Protecting your family and friends (dead or alive). Resisting the authorities. Disinformation. Not to mention firing on your own citizens and all this in a universe that doesn't know what a zombie is.
I think my sig sums it up nicely :cool:

[darth los]

Agreed.

Moral and sentimental issues would be the biggest detriment to the effort in wiping out the plague.

That's Precisely what the military is for. To do those awful things that civilians can't or won't do.

The hard things that must be done regardless.

:cool:

[Thorn]

I do not doubt our soldiers in many cases are hardened and dependable, that they love their country, and are dedicated to their respective branch of the military. Further I have no doubt they care for their brothers in arms on a level most people do not and can never understand.

That however is not ALL of them, and a chain as they say is only as strong as it's weakest link. One guy bolts in combat it weakens a line. Two guys run because fear runs through their ranks based on desertion of a few, and you are that much weaker. Three guys sneak off in the night because rumors are rampant their home city is over run and their loved ones are in danger.

It can happen, and in a case where the dead walk (Think about that as a normal person not us, people who live it in our minds and on film, and print every day just about) and they are EATING people.

Do you A) Follow orders or B) Save your wife and new born baby?

You could argue that following orders serves the greater good and offers us the best chance of beating the undead horde, HOWEVER not everyone will see it that way and it is hard to justify that logic when you hear your baby was eaten and your wife could be alive but locked in a closet begging for you to come save her.

[darth los]

That would have to be a touch and go situation, imo.

The truth is despite all the training in the world, none of us know how we're going to react when it's "no longer a drill."

Furthermore, as was already stated, this is an enemy and horror the likes of which have never been seen in human history so who knows how our military personnel will react.

I would like to think that our military is flexible when it needs to be and is not as dumb and incompetant as they are portrayed in this instance.

If I'm the commander and hear reports of mass desertion due to family situations I would allow them to bring their immediate family with them on base so that stress is taken out of the equation.

The ideal situation, no. But this is far from a conventional war. It's either let the soldiers bring their family or suffer mass desertions.

:cool:

[BillyRay]

There's 2 things to keep in mind:

1)The American Military hasn't had to engage an enemy force on our own soil since before our Grandparents were born. Apart from what's in the "handbook", there is no contemporary frame of reference for dealing with enemy combatants (Living or Undead) on our own soil. Who knows how it would effect discipline in a situation where our soldiers' homes, families, and communities are threatened.

2) The Walking Dead "universe" is missing one key factor from the real world - Zombie Films. In their world, Romero stuck with commercials, so nobody knows the "Rules". In our world, a lot of folks would have a clue about headshots/reanimation, so the zombie threat would be lessened.

[sandrock74]

2) The Walking Dead "universe" is missing one key factor from the real world - Zombie Films.

How do you figure that? In one issue, Rick mentions that the adults had a hard time calling the roamers "zombies", because it seemed to sound like something from bad horror movies.

[AcesandEights]

How do you figure that? In one issue, Rick mentions that the adults had a hard time calling the roamers "zombies", because it seemed to sound like something from bad horror movies.

Oh, snap! Ultimate revelation:

Rick's a GAR-hater!

[BillyRay]

How do you figure that? In one issue, Rick mentions that the adults had a hard time calling the roamers "zombies", because it seemed to sound like something from bad horror movies.

Something I recall from an interview with Darabont. He had asked Kirkman if there were zombie movies in the Walking Dead world, and they had a good laugh because if that were the case, folks would have made short work of the Living Dead.

(Or something like that; I paraphrase)

I don't remember that line from the book - sounds to me like a throwaway line used for a quick meta laugh. Or a reference to voodoo zombies.

I've brought this point up before in other threads. In a Vampire or Werewolf film, the heroes have seen enough films or read enough books that they're pretty prepared to deal with the monster in question. (At least by the film's climax). You don't see this in Zombie films. It's always an unkown, unthinkable, BRAND NEW threat. Which is why it gets out of control pretty quickly, police and military are overwhelmed, etc.

Just for laughs, I'd like to see a zombie story where the protagonists are aware of the "Remove the head/Destroy the brain" rule. Granted, it'd be a hella short movie...:lol:

[MoonSylver]

Just for laughs, I'd like to see a zombie story where the protagonists are aware of the "Remove the head/Destroy the brain" rule. Granted, it'd be a hella short movie...:lol:

Or maybe not...

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsK/9084-15888.gif

"The brain! The brain! You gotta hit the brain!"

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsG/7140-15888.gif

"I hit the fucking brain!!!"

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsM/11319-15888.gif

"You mean the movie LIED?!?!"

:lol:

[MinionZombie]

BillyRay raises a good point, the world of zombie movies don't have zombies movies in them - so already we forum lurkers have a significant advantage over the folks of GAR's flicks, or the TWD gang, etc.

ROTLD though - is a comedy - and a fairly self aware comedy to boot - so that doesn't count. An enjoyable flick, but it's nowhere in the same league as GAR's flicks or TWD.

As for nitpicking - there's a line with nitpicking. You can get all up in the detail and examine intricacies with a fascination ... but it's when it goes into ridiculous territory that it takes the piss. We've seen such OTT moaning with GAR's flicks and recently with TWD, and frankly it sucks the fun out of it - there's a line with nitpicking/details, just like with all things in life - there's a line.

[krisvds]

BillyRay raises a good point, the world of zombie movies don't have zombies movies in them - so already we forum lurkers have a significant advantage over the folks of GAR's flicks, or the TWD gang, etc.

ROTLD though - is a comedy - and a fairly self aware comedy to boot - so that doesn't count. An enjoyable flick, but it's nowhere in the same league as GAR's flicks or TWD.

As for nitpicking - there's a line with nitpicking. You can get all up in the detail and examine intricacies with a fascination ... but it's when it goes into ridiculous territory that it takes the piss. We've seen such OTT moaning with GAR's flicks and recently with TWD, and frankly it sucks the fun out of it - there's a line with nitpicking/details, just like with all things in life - there's a line.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrHXvQRTa5M

[Thorn]

That would have to be a touch and go situation, imo.

The truth is despite all the training in the world, none of us know how we're going to react when it's "no longer a drill."

Furthermore, as was already stated, this is an enemy and horror the likes of which have never been seen in human history so who knows how our military personnel will react.

I would like to think that our military is flexible when it needs to be and is not as dumb and incompetant as they are portrayed in this instance.

If I'm the commander and hear reports of mass desertion due to family situations I would allow them to bring their immediate family with them on base so that stress is taken out of the equation.

The ideal situation, no. But this is far from a conventional war. It's either let the soldiers bring their family or suffer mass desertions.

:cool:

Well said.

[Trin]

I enjoyed TS-19.

I liked the CDC thing, and I liked the Jenner character, but I didn't buy his endgame. I didn't see anything to justify his mindset of condemning them all. He seemed sane and reasonable up to that point.

I'd love to believe that he knew/discovered something about the condition that was so horrific that he knew humanity would not survive. That would justify his mindset and actions. And I'd love to believe he whispered that nugget of info to Rick. But I'm guessing that's not the case.

Dale was pure awesome. Perfect performance. His scene with Andrea was the scene of the series in my mind.

And Daryl was awesome. I love him more every episode.

I liked the Shane flashback. I still think they're jerking us around, but the flashback gave some depth to his internal struggle. Now he's someone who tried to be the good guy and is being villified. And the gurney thing displayed a surprising attention to detail across episodes. Very cool!

On larger topics...

I agree it needs to be more than a virus. Both to justify the outbreak/spread, but also to justify how the CDC could be so confused by it. A typical infectious disease outbreak would fall right into their expertise, and cure or not, they'd have the thing under control.

I also echo the comments that Season 1 didn't have enough zombies to justify the level of desperation. These people act like they're on the run 24/7, but the sparsity of zombies is in direct conflict with that. And to call this an "Extinction Event" is just laughable. I guarantee you that the better part of Arkansas doesn't even realize it's going on yet. :)

The whole discussion of the military's inability to deal with the situation is missing one crucial point. The US was founded on a principle that the nation's military would NEVER be brought to bear against its own citizenry. To mobilize the military (as opposed to National Guard) would be an act of desperation. To then let them fire their weapons into crowds of citizens... no President would authorize that. I can totally see a situation where the military was mobilized past the point where the crisis was out of hand and even then were given severe restrictions on what they could do. By the time they took matters into their own hands (ala hospital flashback) it could very well be too late.

[MinionZombie]

Trin - hell yeah on the Dale/Andrea scene - I could agree that it's the best scene from the entire season ... also, as you say, the re-drawing (again) of Shane's character was welcome. They re-drew him from the comic earlier on when you discovered that "you told me Rick was dead", but then here in episode six we see another twist on it and he truly thought that Rick was dead as he didn't hear a heartbeat (but then again, you probably wouldn't in all that chaos ... or, to get a bit deep, did Shane secretly not want to hear a heartbeat? :shifty:) ... so it was an impressive double-re-draw on Shane in season one. Noiiice. :thumbsup:

[Gemini]

After the blood tests the Doc only said "no surprises" ...to me that leaves the door wide open (intentionally?) on the possibility that everyone is infected and will reanimate upon death.

[MinionZombie]

After the blood tests the Doc only said "no surprises" ...to me that leaves the door wide open (intentionally?) on the possibility that everyone is infected and will reanimate upon death.

I would be very surprised if that's what he whispered to Rick ... especially considering what has so far transpired in the first four volumes of the trade paperbacks that I've read, and so what I reckon is most likely the whispered twist.

Also, I'm sure that - like in GAR's universe - any dead body can reanimate. You don't have to be bitten ... although that hasn't been touched upon, yet, in the show, it does get touched upon in Volume 2 of the trades ... so that fact being what he whispered to Rick would be pretty doubtful, to be honest. It's not much of a twist ... what I reckon was most likely whispered, however, is potentially a big old problem for Rick & Co.

[ProfessorChaos]

similar to what trin speculated, i'm gonna go out on a limb and guess what jenner said to rick (in a nutshell):

everyone is "infected". anyone who dies will come back.
your wife is pregnant.

[BillyRay]

"Hey Dude, I fucked your wife..."

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/W2/esq-03-jenner-whisper-walking-dead-120610-lg.jpg

[darth los]

I liked the Shane flashback. I still think they're jerking us around, but the flashback gave some depth to his internal struggle. Now he's someone who tried to be the good guy and is being villified.


Staring at rick down the sights of his tactical shotgun a hair away from squeezing the trigger is a good guy? Hmmmmmm...

I see the series shane as a guy who has been put in an impossible situation. About the heartbeat thing, if he heard it or not it was probably him rationalizing things so he could feel better about leaving his best friend in that warzone. No heartbeat, so why drag around a corpse. Enough of those walking around already.

I don't believe at that moment in time we saw that it was on his mind to hatch a diabolical plan to leave his friend there and hijack his family. But I do believe that it's a situation that he has developed feelings for lori and now we have a juicy storyline so that chicks can get into the show.


your wife is pregnant.

That would definitely explain that "I just got punched in the stomach" look he was wearing.

:cool:

[Gemini]

I would be very surprised if that's what he whispered to Rick ... especially considering what has so far transpired in the first four volumes of the trade paperbacks that I've read, and so what I reckon is most likely the whispered twist.

Also, I'm sure that - like in GAR's universe - any dead body can reanimate. You don't have to be bitten ... although that hasn't been touched upon, yet, in the show, it does get touched upon in Volume 2 of the trades ... so that fact being what he whispered to Rick would be pretty doubtful, to be honest. It's not much of a twist ... what I reckon was most likely whispered, however, is potentially a big old problem for Rick & Co.

You misunderstood, I am not referring to what he whispered to Rick I am referring to what he said regarding the blood tests - "no surprises"

To me that sounded cryptic and could mean any number of things.

[MinionZombie]

You misunderstood, I am not referring to what he whispered to Rick I am referring to what he said regarding the blood tests - "no surprises"

To me that sounded cryptic and could mean any number of things.

Even still, I don't think that's really the point or purpose in the line - I think you're reading too much into those two words. Everybody being capable of turning into a zombie once they're dead is standard, it just hasn't been seen on the show so far, but it has in the comics during the second story arc. What was supposed to be cryptic was what he was whispering into Rick's ear (although, as I said, I'm 99% sure what it was - but anyone who hasn't read the comics won't be so quick to guess necessarily).

My point being, considering how they discover you come back as a zombie - even if you've not been bitten - in the second story arc in the comics, that will be how they really tackle the issue. Sure, part of "no surprises" would possibly involved them knowing you don't have to be bitten to become a zombie - death is the motivating factor ... but heck, how they discover you don't need to be bitten could either be a mid-season "dun dun duuuuuuun!" moment, or a second season closer.

[Trin]

Shane is the victim of circumstance (a fairly complex contrived circumstance, btw). We, the viewers, have a different perception of his actions at the hospital than Lori can ever have, and in light of that everything that evolved between Shane and Lori is within the bounds of Shane as a good guy who succumbed to temptation. He didn't really do anything wrong. Then Rick shows up and by all appearances he did EVERYTHING wrong.

I think his sighting Rick in the woods was an expression of his frustration and perhaps a foreshadow of an upcoming breakdown.

The best possible outcome is for the whole mess to come out and Rick and Shane to have a big brawl that ends with Rick (being the consumate good guy) forgiving Shane and their friendship damaged but intact. Shane can start being the good guy he has it in himself to be and the group in general can start to focus on the zombies as the conflict, not each other. Yes, I know that's never gonna happen.

As for the virus/phenomenon and it being in everybody's blood... so what? I'm not sure why this is seen as game-changing. So what if we're all a carrier of something that only affects us after death? No matter what the cause and resolution, if humanity gets back in control again the dead will ALWAYS be seen as a threat from that moment on. If everyone is a carrier it changes nothing.

If the big reveal is that Lori is pregnant I'm surprised it didn't come up before. Why would Jenner, seeing that Lori and Rick are a married couple with a child, withhold this information as soon as he knew? Why would he whisper it only to Rick at the final moment? I don't see that "secret" as being worth the hype.

[MinionZombie]

Well clearly Lori doesn't know she's pregnant - if indeed she is pregnant - and considering the time frame, it could very well be too early for her to be suspicious that she was pregnant, so therefore it would be a total surprise to them, and considering Jenner's doom laden mind, that'll be why he told Rick in a whisper ... plus for TV audiences unfamiliar with the comic, it'll be a surprise for them, or most of them at least.

[darth los]

A really interesting theory was posited by a frieind of mine at work just now.

We know the CDC is one of the most heavily fortified buildings in the world. It's also got surveilance up the ass.

So, what if there are cameras monitoring everything, which is very likely?

What if one of those cameras was also in the room that shane and lori had that incident in? And what if a certain doctor witnessed it?

Is it so crazy that he filled rick in or atleast told him to keep an eye on shane and his wife?

:cool:

[bassman]

What if one of those cameras was also in the room that shane and lori had that incident in? And what if a certain doctor witnessed it?

Is it so crazy that he filled rick in or atleast told him to keep an eye on shane and his wife?


That theory was suggested the night the season finale aired, dude. :p

[MinionZombie]

Darth - interesting theory. That one totally passed me by ... interesting indeed, although I still think Jenner was telling him "yo, dude, your wife's up the duff" ... ... either that or he said "dude, I fucked your wife" *winks at Moon* :D

Interesting theory ... interesting ... ... I don't think that's what he was saying, but nevertheless, intriguing.