Contains Spoilers! TWD 2x07 "Pretty Much Dead Already" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN** [Archive]

JDFP

28-Nov-2011, 02:20 AM

Well, as difficult as it is to say it:

Shane was right. It may have mentally broken Hershel, but he was right to do what he did in blasting the ghouls apart. Seeing Sophia walk out of the barn like that was absolutely heartbreaking - but it was necessary instead of placating Hersh to get the ghouls taken care of then and there. From the "scenes from when TWD returns in February" it seems that they are going to be around Hersh's farm (or is it Maggie's farm now? Ah, I just wanted to say Maggie's farm really - anyone think someone on TWD might be a Bob Dylan fan?) for some time to come - but that could be just speculation.

I think Hersh knew that it wasn't some "disease" but he's not capable of wrapping his mind around what is going on around him. And I think it's a good possibility this could have sent him over the edge mentally. I hope I'm wrong because I actually like the guy - after Maggie's talk with him he realized that it was right to let them stay and he was willing to do it. If anything, I feel some sympathy for him as he's not a bad man at all - he's just an old man who has lost his grip on what the world is really like all around him.

Here's what I don't get though: Otis or some of the others that sent the ghouls into the barn KNEW there was a little girl in there - why didn't anyone ever say anything? They all KNEW they were looking for a little girl - you think one of them would have thought to say: "Oh, by the way, it might not be Sophia but there's a 'diseased' girl in the barn that could be her?" - this I don't understand. Why never mention it?

j.p.

Mr. Clean

28-Nov-2011, 02:35 AM

"Oh, by the way, it might not be Sophia but there's a 'diseased' girl in the barn that could be her?" - this I don't understand. Why never mention it?

j.p.

Kind of thought this myself but thought maybe only Otis knew exactly who else was in the barn besides the orginal family members. The topic of the little girl never came up until after Carl was stablized which Otis was out of the picture by this point.

Wyldwraith

28-Nov-2011, 02:51 AM

You know,
Shane's right. I agree with Dale that Shane has a real darkness gaining strength inside of him, but Shane's actions (however misguided, and for whatever motives) rightfully revealed the horrible truth that Herschel knowingly concealed, DESPITE the fact Carl and then Daryl nearly DIED looking for a little girl that Herschel had to know was undead and in his barn.

Wow, just....wow. I was totally on board the "Shane's gone way the HELL too far this time" train as he wrenched the barn doors open. I understood, and to some degree sympathized because of the inflammatory/exacerbating factors of Dale pulling such a profoundly controlling and group-endangering move with the cache of guns & ammo, and Rick wholeheartedly leaping aboard the Herschel-Delusion Express in such a vivid manner by strolling into the farm with 2 Walkers on catch-poles which contributed to Shane's over-the-top choices and actions. I thought that, however dangerous and dicey what Rick had chosen to do was, that it didn't excuse Shane turning the farm into a warzone.

Until Sophia shambled out of the barn! In an instant, and much as I hated to admit it, Rick's decision to do things Herschel's way...not to mention all the previous decisions made to appease Herschel, was catastrophically proven horribly, awfully wrong.

Consider the timeline. If Otis was the one who had manhandled the previous Walkers into the barn, and if Otis was also free to be deer hunting while Rick and Co. were searching for Sophia, that means that Otis and Herschel (at a MINIMUM) knew Otis had put a recently-dead and now undead little girl in the barn prior to his ill-fated deer hunting expedition. A fact that Herschel couldn't have failed to link to the missing little girl that Rick and Co. were constantly discussing and risking their lives trying to find. Hell, Forrest Gump couldn't have failed to realize the little-girl-zombie, who was also one of, if not THE most-recent Walker to be put in the barn by Otis HAD TO BE the little girl Rick and Co. were searching for.

In that light, Daryl's injuries can be laid entirely at Herschel's doorstep. That old man has a big-ole-pair of Liberty Bell-sized gonads to have the nerve to chastise Daryl after he came back injured.
I just....wow. That finale...despite having (like everyone else) considered the possibility Sophia was in the barn, the scriptwriter(s), director and actors did a masterful job of portraying the most shattering reveal of that fact humanly possible.

Just...wow. TWD is intense. It has provoked emotional reactions from me before, but that finale hit me with a positively visceral feeling of being conflicted and at a loss. Then I see the special sneak preview in Hell on Wheels, and Herschel is claiming that THEY DIDN'T KNOW OTIS PUT SOPHIA IN THE BARN. And it looks like Rick and some of the others might buy that. Despite the physical impossibility of moving a Walker of any size into that barn as a 1-man job.

Finale + Special Sneak Preview = Gasoline on a raging 4-alarm fire & aching for February.

joeharley666

28-Nov-2011, 03:05 AM

I love the irony of Rick having to shoot Sophia. Not because he was feeling responsible for her impending doom , but because it shows Hershel that after slaughtering his family and friends, he also is willing to kill his own people when needing to do so. I think Hershel will wake up and understand what it's all about now

Moon Knight

28-Nov-2011, 03:10 AM

Yeeeah, now that's what's up! Loved that ending and Shane going off like that was just awesome.

I'm gonna assume Hershel knew about the little girl and didn't want to say anything.

Kaos

28-Nov-2011, 04:16 AM

Yeeeah, now that's what's up! Loved that ending and Shane going off like that was just awesome.

I'm gonna assume Hershel knew about the little girl and didn't want to say anything.

He might have known, but Kirkman said that knowledge may have actually died with Otis since he was the regular wrangler.

ProfessorChaos

28-Nov-2011, 04:40 AM

blown away by the fact that sophia died and became a walker. i'm not up the current issue of the comics, but i'm somewhere in the 7th year and she's still around. i really was expecting things to escalate between rick and shane to the point of no return (probably not alone in this), but the way that things ended was even better.

i'm standing by my initial impression of this show that i got from the pilot, and still say it's the hands-down the best living-dead related thing on film in the last twenty-five years or so, sorry george.

up to this point, i'm delighted by this season. it's had a few dull moments, but you can't really judge these shows or form solid opinions by the singular episodes in my opinion, but rather look at the season as a whole. so far, it's been great, and looks like it's only gonna get better.

Legion2213

28-Nov-2011, 10:04 AM

That my friends, was the best dose of delayed gratification I've had in a long time, this second series has been pretty high on drama and story telling, but light on good old fashioned zombie porn...I have no shame in telling you all that I became sexually aroused when Shane bust that barn lock and unleashed those walkers into the face of hot leaden death!

Our heroes: *pop pop pop, crack, pop, kepow, pop pop pop*

Me: *Yes, yes, yeeeesssssss, unghhhh ahhhhhhh!*

:D

Sophia scene made me sad though, sort of felt it was coming, but still, it was very well done. :(

All that said, I think the group have damaged themselves bigtime (emotionally).

Still trying to get my head around the awesome of this as I type. Get the fuck in TWD!!! :)

bassman

28-Nov-2011, 12:09 PM

Everyone's reaction to Sophia was heartbreaking. Good to see Rick step up and do what needed to be done, though.

Great episode even if it was spoiled a few weeks back. Now the wait for February....

AcesandEights

28-Nov-2011, 01:36 PM

maybe only Otis knew exactly who else was in the barn besides the orginal family members.

Immediately after realizing Sophia was going to amble out of the barn (during that pause they gave before the 'reveal', I knew someone would question why no one at the farm mentioned anything and immediately assumed the same thing, given what we know about how they grabbed some of the random zombies due to last night's episode.

-- -------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------

Consider the timeline. If Otis was the one who had manhandled the previous Walkers into the barn, and if Otis was also free to be deer hunting while Rick and Co. were searching for Sophia, that means that Otis and Herschel (at a MINIMUM) knew Otis had put a recently-dead and now undead little girl in the barn prior to his ill-fated deer hunting expedition.

It certainly doesn't mean Hershel had to know such a thing, actually. I'm not saying he didn't know, but he didn't have to (certainly makes less sense if he knew) and to say he definitely knew such a thing is going out of the way to assume extraordinary measures, as opposed to assuming what makes sense given the situation.

-- -------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ----------

Everyone's reaction to Sophia was heartbreaking. Good to see Rick step up and do what needed to be done, though.

Yup, it was nice to see Rick step up and do something grisly that had to actually be done, as opposed to Shane's typical do something grisly just because he can't think his way out of a paper bag.

-- -------- Post added at 09:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ----------

I love the irony of Rick having to shoot Sophia. Not because he was feeling responsible for her impending doom , but because it shows Hershel that after slaughtering his family and friends, he also is willing to kill his own people when needing to do so.

Wow, excellent point!

-- -------- Post added at 09:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ----------

I have no shame in telling you all that I became sexually aroused when Shane bust that barn lock and unleashed those walkers into the face of hot leaden death!

I wish you'd had the shame :p

:D

darth los

28-Nov-2011, 01:37 PM

In order to have any credibility with herschel and his people Rick HAD to step up and do it. The whole scene was a lesson to those who see the walkers as just random monsters that need to be put down without hesitation (rightly or wrongly). It was a zombie nerdgasm when shane opened the barn and started putting down herschel's family, friends and nieghbors but even the most hardcore of us had to gasp and hesitate when it was "one of our own", a kid no less.

In that very instant it became clear how herschel viewed them and, while i believe wrongly, he did what he did.

Kinda blows a hole in the whole Cherokee rose theory, huh darryl?

Furthermore, just as the "bad guy" Harry cooper ultimately ended up being right, shane's philosophy is looking more right by the minute if not his methods. If he hadn't done what he did Sophia's mom never would have gotten closure on the matter and who knows what further damage might have been done to the group. Looking for sophia got carl shot, led to a scenario where otis was killed and damn near got darryl killed as well. Rick's "moral" code is looking less appealing by the second in this new world. You notice that when shane drew a line in the sand eveyone took a gun and followed his lead right?

And someone really needs to slap the shit out of dale. I mean this has to be the third time he took it upon himself to make a big decision either for the group or another individual in it that really wasn't his call.

1)Right or wrong andrea dying or not at the cdc was her decision to make not his.

2) Him lying about the Rv not being ready to roll out in order to Stave off the "needs of the many versus the needs of the few argument" was another dick move. Again, a grave decision that should have been voted on by everyone he took upon himself to make because he has this holier than thou shit going on for some reason and knows better than everyone else. We don't know what would have happened had they left after a day of searching but we do know that because they stayed carl got shot, otis was murdered and they almost lost their best "survivor" in darryl. Not up to him.

3) And hiding the guns!?! WTF man!?! I see his reasoning there but again, NOT HIS CALL. Yes the guns will probably lead to a few human born confrontaions amongst themselves but they are also the method to which they will survive an attack by a large number of walkers and feel confident to go on searches for little girls who are already dead in zombie infested suburbs and come out of it okay.

There are a couple of other instances but these are the three that stick out to me the most.

:cool:

AcesandEights

28-Nov-2011, 01:37 PM

Great episode even if it was spoiled a few weeks back.

Wow, how did I miss that? I must have resisted reading a linked article or something. Was it an article or from somewhere else, Bass?

Legion2213

28-Nov-2011, 01:43 PM

To be honest, I think Rick was just taking responsibility for what had to be done, I still think the way he put the bicycle zombie down one of the best moments of the series, Shane sees them as meat, Rick still sees them as humans or ex-humans, he showed the same sort of care in the "guts" episode when he decided to find out just who the person was who they were dismembering. It is his way, no use surviving if you become less than human in doing so.

These traits are part of the reason I'd follow him to Hell in this kind of situation rather than turn my back on Shane for more than a few seconds...Shane might be survivor, but he would end up like Rhodes if he was in charge. Rick's bad calls are usually the result of his humanity and decency.

Edit: Los, you are bang right about Dale hiding the groups weapons...Jesus, what if the walkers had busted out of the barn or another herd had come rumbling down into the fields...bad bad call on his part, noble reasons for doing it or not.

bassman

28-Nov-2011, 02:09 PM

Wow, how did I miss that? I must have resisted reading a linked article or something. Was it an article or from somewhere else, Bass?

Someone here posted a link to a picture of Sophia exiting the barn. I have no idea how they got that picture, but it's now confirmed as legit.

Wyldwraith

28-Nov-2011, 02:17 PM

I'll rephrase then,
SOMEONE, besides Otis had to have been involved with putting Undead-Sophia in the barn.
Why? How do you maneuver a catch-pole, with a zombie snapping and lunging at you on the end of it (Which almost got the male teen of Herschel's people bitten multiple times just maneuvering the Walkers with the poles as they pulled them out of the bog) and then get it into the barn ALONE?

It didn't HAVE to be Herschel specifically who knew and/or helped Otis, but the circumstancial (admittedly) evidence is fairly conclusive.
1) Herschel knew exactly where the catch-poles were, and took Rick right to them after the teen came rushing in to tell Herschel "It" happened again.
2) Herschel has wanted to be notified or have complete say about everything that happens on his farm. (Not arguing the right or wrong of this behavior here, just pointing it out)
3) Herschel was comfortable enough with the Zombie Barn to immediately and repeatedly turn down sincere offers to help reinforce/secure said barn.
4) One of Herschel's people was breaking the chicken's LEGS in what (at least to me) seemed like a fairly practiced move. Point two here is that we know Herschel's people were feeding the barn-zombies from the second-story loft that Glenn saw the Walkers from. (Incidentally, I find it difficult to believe one could go about such a task, that involves looking down into the barn if for no other reason than you're coming near the edge of the loft with live, frantically squirming broken-legged chickens in a bag and you don't want to FALL IN.)

However, I'm going to stick with my key point. I simply don't believe a Walker could be put in that barn by one man alone, unless first others were willing to risk being bitten to help pin it to the ground and hogtie it or something, but we know they didnt do that or the zombies wouldn't be shambling around in there. Plus that was a woman feeding the Walkers, and I find it difficult to believe that even catching a glimpse of an undead little girl that wasn't there the last time she tossed the Walkers chickens wouldn't have been something that stuck with her.

Other things are of course POSSIBLE, but IMO it is a vanishingly small chance that Otis was moving the Walkers into the barn alone. Especially once they already had some in there, and we know that Herschel's family members and neighbors were Walkers before the group showed up, because as Herschel said, Otis did the Walker-moving and Otis was d.e.a.d.

kidgloves

28-Nov-2011, 02:24 PM

Well.... I managed to watch this live last night before finally falling into bed:D. Bit of an anticlimax for me as i called it weeks ago before it leaked online :D and my reasoning was just what you guys are talking about. After shooting Herschels zombies, something had to happen to balance it out and that had to be someone in the group shooting one of their own which could only be Sophia. The whole segment shooting the zombies and Sophia was still a very very strong moment though. You can't beat a mass execution of walkers for dramatic purposes and it was done superbly by Michelle MacLaren.

The next episode is called "Nebraska". Hmmm interesting.

MinionZombie

28-Nov-2011, 02:37 PM

Someone here posted a link to a picture of Sophia exiting the barn. I have no idea how they got that picture, but it's now confirmed as legit.

Soooooooo glad I didn't see that picture, wherever it was posted! :eek:

Anyway - as I said, what with this being the mid-season finale, I didn't want to wait and risk having it spoiled. I just got done watching it and yep - another spiffing episode. Some thoughts:

1) There has been a growing tendency lately to delay gratification right till the last part of the episode - at times this can work, but it is a little bit annoying. I felt that the pace was a bit slow, however they did end the episode brilliantly which made up for the slow pace ... it doesn't have to be guns blazing, but a little nip and tuck here or a little tweak there to improve the pacing at the odd moment wouldn't go amiss.

2) Sophia being a zombie was certainly a possibility - but I think many of us didn't quite think that it could happen - but it was certainly handled with real care. I think, like many, you kind guessed it was going to happen before it happened - I think that was down to the pacing of the scene and the choice of shots used. It could have been hidden just a sinch better, and perhaps if the leads throughout the season had been a little bit warmer then it might have made it a bigger shock ... but nevertheless, that's just nitty-nit-picking - I thought the scene was great. The reactions were wonderful.

3) I think it was a wise choice to have Rick be the one to shoot Sophia. Not only does it echo the little girl in 1x01, but it's also numerous other things - it shows to Herschel, as others have said, that Rick is willing to put down one of his own when necessary, but more importantly, there's the guilt factor. Rick feels like he failed Sophia, and now he discovers she has become a zombie, so it's now his responsibility to end her undead life.

4) Shane going mental was awesome - it's been like a pressure cooker with him and here we got the blow-out - I genuinely felt tense in the scene in the swamp between him and Dale (well acted by both gents), and him shooting that zombie to prove to Herschel that they're not sick and in-need of a cure, but they're flat out dead and dangerous was superb. It was a huge scene for a lot of characters - Herschel's belief system gets totally destroyed, Carol's (and the group's) worst fears are confirmed with Sophia, Rick is confronted by a mistake that he couldn't have not made in an impossible situation, Maggie full-on realises (with the help of the drug store attack) that these are indeed walkers in need of putting down, Carl's lost his little friend, Daryl's failed to do what he was determined to do ... blimey - a BIG scene indeed.

5) Seeing Sophia as a zombie was really quite sad, as many have already said ... a beautifully played out scene ... gotta say it again.

Now - what does this all hold for the future?

* Will Herschel demand everyone leave? If so, will Maggie go with Glenn, and will they try to populate that housing estate we saw in 2x06?
* Rick/Shane/Lori - that whole situation.
* Shane ... 'nuff said.
* I can see a relationship brewing between Daryl and Carol - will this develop in the next batch of episodes?

Yes - another spiffing episode.

Thorn

28-Nov-2011, 04:10 PM

As to someone knowing about it, sadly no one did. Kirkman said on the talking dead no one knew. Otis put her in the barn and died before anyone started asking hard questions about Sophia. He explained that specifically and to derail the comments on the internet where people were attacking Herschel for knowing all along.

I get that it makes sense to us he would have needed help but who knows how he did it. Or it might be one of those moments we have to just suspend disbelief.

Shane going crazy is a thing to behold, he is an amazing actor one who I think has grown a lot at his craft over the 2 seasons we have been watching him. Amazing job, and the scene of course appealed to any zombie fan as far as action goes, the FX, make up, and whole scene just reeked of awesome. That certainly does not mean I agree with the methodology, or motivation.

I do agree it was a danger to the people on the farm greater than ANYONE outside the group we have been following understands but I of course would have found another way to make my point that was much less "I am going to crap all over your believes and assumptions and shock you into reality or even if you don't get it I don't care I am just doing what I want on your property so f' off". The approach doesn't wash with me.

It was an amazing episode and I wish I did not read the spoiler that gave away the reveal ending, while I doubted how legit it was when they had the pause and the sounds leading up to her exiting the barn... I knew. How could you not? So lesson learned there.

Hiding the guns was a major mistake and I agree with those painting it as Dale putting everyone on the farm in danger, it was something he did on his own without consulting the group outside of leadership.

No one has that right, you can have the best motivations if you fail to act on them properly well... it doesn't mean much.

Loved the episode not looking forward to the break.

kidgloves

28-Nov-2011, 04:36 PM

Wyldwraith

28-Nov-2011, 04:41 PM

My focus is on what was revealed of the beginning of the first new episode of February in the sneak peek during Hell On Wheels (didn't watch the show, but I left the TV on AMC to catch the Walking Dead sneak peek that was much more "meaty" than the "Next time on TWD" regular preview at the end of mid-season finale).

We see the pile of corpses still on the ground in front of the barn, Maggie is helping a shaky Herschel back up the steps into the farmhouse as Shane strides forward and vehemently accuses Herschel and his people of knowing about Sophia. Herschel responds angrily with the statement "Otis handled all that. I didn't know anything about that"...which Shane replies to with "That's bullshit. What, you think I'm stupid? You expect me to believe that?" To which a distraught and angry Herschel retorts "I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!"

All the while, the rest of the group has kept pace and is right in a cluster even with Shane at the bottom of the farmhouse steps, but none of them say anything. Then it flashes to Rick and Shane heatedly arguing, before finishing with a scene that was obviously a bit later of all of them (including Shane) digging graves in front of the barn.

Whatever you think about that scene, it tells us they're picking up chronologically seconds after the end of the mid-season finale and going forward from there.

I still maintain that whatever the truth about who knew what, and when, about undead-Sophia being in the barn...there's just NO WAY that Otis did all the moving of Walkers into the barn all by himself. Especially when we KNOW they weren't all put in at the same time. Realistically, Hell, remotely POSSIBLY, how does ONE MAN move multiple Walkers into a structure already containing other Walkers...and without some complex effort like tying them up and tossing them in. (Which we know wasn't done because they're all shambling freely around inside.)

Maybe Otis did the bulk of the work, and maybe even got most of the Walkers in there alone after they died but before they reanimated, but we KNOW that there have been AT LEAST TWO times that the male teen in Herschel's group has said (and was thus aware) of Walkers getting trapped in the bog as we saw during the finale. Which tells us that even if you assume Otis got Herschel's 2nd wife and stepson, plus their neighbors etc etc into the barn before they reanimated, at least one ONE other occasion (besides the one we saw Rick and Herschel dealing with) occurred where a Walker or Walkers plural (coulda been Sophia in fact) were pulled out of that bog the 2 Walkers were in. Meaning that at a bare-bones-minimum, Otis had to get at LEAST Sophia into the barn with the other Walkers already in there...and unless the teen was aware of Walker-Sophia getting stuck in the bog (which would blow a hole right there in Herschel's statement that only Otis knew about imprisoning the Walkers in any detail) that there was at LEAST one OTHER occasion where Otis took a zombie out of the bog and put it in the barn with the other Walkers.

That much is airtight. Unless that teen is a compulsive liar, that is. And I don't see him lying to Herschel with his statement "It happened again!"

Thoughts?

Edit: @Thorn: Ok, we have to respect what Kirkman stated of course. That doesn't mean it's a situation that calls for suspension of disbelief though. It's a glaring scripting error in the KEY plot element(s) of the mid-season finale. Who did what, when they did it, and who knew what when and about what is the CORE of the finale. Will of course have another post up to completely disagree with you a bit later Thorn.

Oh, and Shane was 150% right.

Legion2213

28-Nov-2011, 04:44 PM

Only thing that worries me about the 2nd half after watching the "coming this season" bit at the end of the show is that it turns from "the hunt for Sophia" to "the hunt for Herschel". Please don't let it be true :annoyed:

Urgh, I didn't get that bit (downloaded my copy), but seriously, that just sounds horribly lame. :rolleyes:

kidgloves

28-Nov-2011, 05:04 PM

Urgh, I didn't get that bit (downloaded my copy), but seriously, that just sounds horribly lame. :rolleyes:

Here you go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0Peldz0-uY&feature=related

MinionZombie

28-Nov-2011, 05:32 PM

Here you go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0Peldz0-uY&feature=related

I totally just Randy Marshed ... *shivers* mmm, yeah. :sneaky:

Hopefully it doesn't become a drawn-out thing finding Herschel ... but I trust that they realise that from the whole Sophia thing, which was drawn out too much (even if it was just over a week in plot time, it was 7 weeks in our time) ... besides, episode previews have suggested different things in the past. Remember a couple of weeks ago when it appeared that Daryl had a fight with Merle and returned 'zombie like' to the farm? Well that went in a bit of a different direction to what the preview suggested ... so I'd hope that it's not a huge thing, but it also kind of makes sense in a way too - a crisis of faith for Herschel ... but it would be wise to not turn it into some massive long-winded search.

That said, one ingredient amidst many doesn't ruin the whole show ... while the Sophia hunt was drawn out too long (or not covered with enough tangible possibility for her nearly being found), this half-season has been spiffing.

One thing though - if it was Otis who found 'Zophia' (see what I did there :p), then he did so quite early on in that week in which she was missing ... so who ate the can of Tuna in the farm house and who was hiding in the cupboard? I suppose it doesn't really matter, it could have been from the very first night that she was missing, and then maybe the day after she was bitten, only to be found not too long after by Otis.

Anyone else get a little fanboy chill of Day of the Dead when they were leading the zombies around with those poles? :)

AcesandEights

28-Nov-2011, 05:48 PM

One thing though - if it was Otis who found 'Zophia' (see what I did there :p), then he did so quite early on in that week in which she was missing ... so who ate the can of Tuna in the farm house and who was hiding in the cupboard?

First person I thought of...
06X9qXTvKNQ

MinionZombie

28-Nov-2011, 06:10 PM

hehe, oh that tricksy creeper...

Just watching that final sequence again and man - excellent acting, writing, and directing (it really is quite the moving scene, exactly as sombre and chilling as it should be) - it's interesting to see the switch in both Rick and Shane. Prior to this moment, Shane has become the person who says 'oh come on, Sophia's probably dead by now', but when actually faced with the sight of Sophia dead and walking around, the part of him that isn't so dark recognises the reality in that statement ... meanwhile Rick has been saying 'I'm not going to leave her out there' all this time, believing her to still be alive, and then when faced with 'Zophia' he has to switch to the harsh resolve of the situation to put her down. Deeply nuanced, to say the least. :thumbsup:

Legion2213

28-Nov-2011, 06:24 PM

That guy is a bullshitter, this happened for real in Japan though.

-- -------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------

Here you go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0Peldz0-uY&feature=related

People digging graves, that's gotta be a good omen (last time somebody did that in this show there was a joyous masacre, zombies getting their arms shot off and other good stuff). :cool:

The Hershcell search cannot take up more than one episode though, they can't do the same "searchin' fer folks" stuff again for another few episodes, they just can't.

krisvds

28-Nov-2011, 06:30 PM

Wow, how did I miss that? I must have resisted reading a linked article or something. Was it an article or from somewhere else, Bass?

I posted a link to that picture I found on a Belgian forum some time ago. Hid it in spoiler tags + wrote a warning not to open the link if you didn't wish to be spoiled.
(episode 5 discussion)

That being said: many of you had already guessed it and, honestly, it wasn't that much of a surprise now was it?

kidgloves

28-Nov-2011, 06:31 PM

**MESSAGE FROM MOD: PLEASE BE CAREFUL WITH SPOILERS. PEOPLE MAY NOT WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE NEXT EPISODE. PLEASE!!! **

The good news is at 8 secs in that video you can clearly see a group of walkers on the farm. :elol:

AcesandEights

28-Nov-2011, 06:35 PM

I posted a link to that picture I found on a Belgian forum some time ago. Hid it in spoiler tags + wrote a warning not to open the link if you didn't wish to be spoiled.

Now, I remember. Thank you for being so diligent with the warning, because I recall passing it by without clicking ;)

Legion2213

28-Nov-2011, 06:36 PM

The good news is at 8 secs in that video you can clearly see a group of walkers on the farm. :elol:

I said that Shane & Andrea's little trip to the housing estate would bring the hammer down...A pound to a penny that they are from there...probably aided in finding the farm by the barn masacre as well. :)

krisvds

28-Nov-2011, 07:50 PM

Now, I remember. Thank you for being so diligent with the warning, because I recall passing it by without clicking ;)

Hehe; Good for you. That's what spoiler tags and warnings are for. Still, feel kinda bad for the people who did click ...

Seriously, despite all warnings and tags i wont be posting stuff like that again. Don't want to 'spoil' anyone's viewing pleasure.

BTW: great episode! Finally some tense 'drama'.

bassman

28-Nov-2011, 07:59 PM

People digging graves, that's gotta be a good omen (last time somebody did that in this show there was a joyous masacre, zombies getting their arms shot off and other good stuff). :cool:

I assumed the graves were for the barn walkers. Just like Glenn flipping out in the first season over whether to burn or bury their friends, I imagine they would do the same for Hershel's family.

Ragnarr

28-Nov-2011, 08:51 PM

HOLY CRAP! Now THAT was a great episode! I think one or two of you on this forum guessed that Sophia was already dead, but being that one gets so used to "missing child" storylines where the child is eventually found to be alive and well, this was a real shocker. Completely awesome episode! Can't wait for February!:eek:

If I was to have one criticism however, it would be their more than generous use of ammunition in this and the previous episode. I can only assume that either Hershel had crates of ammo to share with the characters, or that Glenn found a mountain of different caliber ammo and wasn't filmed finding it. Only hollywood guns used in crappy grade C or D movies fire endlessly y'know!

Neil

28-Nov-2011, 10:00 PM

GUYS! It's a tough job moderating these threads. We're torn between looking for spoilers, while not reading them for fear of having things spoilt.

There seems to be posts/conversation about footage from the next episode. THIS IS A SPOILER for those people who NOT want to know about. PLEASE be considerate!

Wrong Number

28-Nov-2011, 10:39 PM

From the "Conjecture" thread last week:

I'm wondering if Sophia is in Hershel's barn...

WN

I wonder no more!

shootemindehead

28-Nov-2011, 11:07 PM

Poor Carol.

:(

Top marks for that episode.

No feckin marks for making wait around for months to see the next bleedin one.

acealive1

29-Nov-2011, 12:54 AM

i dont think herschel had to wake up or couldnt wrap his mind around things. he was a god fearing bible reading M-A-N. in the bible there's sickness, and thats all he saw. but he also saw color and that was his only downfall.

i had no idea sophia was in the barn, but as soon as they showed the shot from inside the barn and then the camera gets lowered by about 3 feet, i just knew it was her right then. so many questions, so little answers. people nearly died looking for a little girl everyone knew was in the barn.

Wyldwraith

29-Nov-2011, 02:39 AM

Exactly Aces,
I'm having a hard time with how Kirkman chose to deal with the leak. It's the easy way out, frankly, and I just don't respect cop-outs in any way, shape or form. They happen of course, TV just being TV, but they're nothing we should give our tacit blessing to by giving those who made the cop-out decision a free pass on said decision. At the end of the day, it's the majority viewer reaction that decides what stays on the air. I REALLY, REALLY don't want to see Kirkman (or anyone else affiliated w/ filming TWD) develop a habit of retconning shot footage. It makes it so even things that are supposed to be seen as very final, or very definitive in the events depicted lose that finality.

I'm gonna call it now, months in advance. When the dust clears, and we look back on how things finally resolve themselves between Rick & Shane, I 100% believe that Dale's 1-on-1 and behind peoples' backs statements will play a part in turning what is ultimately a conflict of philosophies/moral codes into something violent. Dale's little "Father Knows Best" moments are getting more and more extreme. Just take the progression in 2x06-07. He goes from confronting Shane privately (nothing good to possibly come of that), to telling Shane he needs to leave because Dale doesn't like Andrea's developing rapport w/ Shane (which only exists because everyone else has marginalized her desire to join the gun-toting camp protectors and leave the clothes-washing and meal-making to Lori and Carol. Then Dale has another one of his little 1-on-1s, this time with Andrea, where he asks her "Do you really want to become someone like him (Shane)?" Andrea's reply, serious and obviously something she'd considered at some length: "He (Shane) isn't a victim Dale."

Moving right along, we see further evidence (out of respect for the mods requests won't go into anymore detail than that) that Dale is upping the ante in his 1-on-1 convos with people. Especially people he hasn't been in the habit of talking to like that before. With the common denominator being his drive to persuade other pivotal members of the group to see Shane as Dale sees him.

How does talking about a fellow group member, any group member, in an extremely negative way while remaining unwilling to come out and face the subject of his criticism in front of the rest of the group do anything but draw lines in the sand and create and adversarial situation? Up until now, any serious problems and opinions that could effect the group as a whole have ALWAYS been talked out/debated amongst the entire group. Very recently however, that pattern has completely broken down and everyone is keeping secrets, not being straight with the rest of the group etc etc. Is it a coincidence that group cohesion is at the same time at its lowest-ebb ever? I don't IMO think so. Rick started it (about the big, group-affecting issues I mean) with the best of intentions as he sought to persuade Herschel to change his mind...but that's also where things started to go wrong. Even Lori, fervently loyal to Rick as a way of overcompensating due to guilt as she is, put the screws to Rick when Herschel pressed his point about them leaving to her and she then finds out Rick has known about Herschel's wishes for some time. Inspiring those very dramatic statements (from Lori) "We need to FIX THIS!" and from Rick "Don't look at me that way. Like you're afraid. I can take it from everyone else, but not you."

Then Dale pulls his stunt with the cache of guns and ammo, and before there's any time to decompress from that Rick is demonstrating once again that he's willing to contravene the group's wishes as they conflict with Herschel's delusion about the Walkers being sick people, and comes trotting out of the woods with a couple more Walkers for the rickety barn.

Honestly, I don't see how anyone who knew Shane as well as Rick does would expect anything but exactly what Shane ended up doing in those circumstances. The others weren't comfortable with Walkers in the barn either, or SOMEONE would have hesitated before accepting a gun under those circumstances. HELL, even CARL didn't hesitate to reach for the snub-nose revolver Shane offered, and only ended up without it due to Lori's direct intervention. The way that everyone stepped up to Shane's "firing line" and opened up when the Walkers came out (Andrea running forward to be the first at Shane's side with a gun up and ready to fire spoke volumes) was very telling. Even if the general consensus the group comes to accept is that Herschel and his surviving people knew nothing about Sophia being in there, there's no getting around the gasoline-thrown-on-the-fire effect of all witnessing that.

It was the very symbol of the flaw in "playing ball Herschel's way." Herschel put Rick in an unfair spot to begin with though. He wanted everything to do with his own people run by him first, but he put Rick in the unfair position of blindsiding his own people with the Walkers on catch-poles. I'm glad Rick stepped up, but really it was his only credible move after what a dogged advocate of continuing the search despite all the bad that came from doing so Rick had been.

It WAS heartbreaking to see Sophia as a Walker come out of the barn like that. One of the few times I've been genuinely horrified by something I saw on TV. Yet the legacy of her having been in the barn would be difficult enough to leave behind after Rick's Herschel-Appeasement strategy, and all but impossible (without something VERY BAD happening) with Dale feeding the flames at every turn in his cloak-and-dagger Anti-Shane campaign.

Neil

29-Nov-2011, 07:38 AM

people nearly died looking for a little girl everyone knew was in the barn.
There's a few questions to be answered there. Clearly Hershel (or someone) put here in there!? So they new almost certainly the groups little girl was to be found in the barn...

Would be kind of cool if they did a flash back for her where she found the farm at night, was scared away from the main house by people, and went to a remote barn to try and get warm... Only to fall climb into the hay loft in the dark, and then lose her footing and fall down to the ground inside... (ie: So no one knew she was in there!) However, there were no real signed of major attack on her so she wasn't attacked on mass!

shootemindehead

29-Nov-2011, 11:15 AM

She'd be completely devoured in a situation like that though Neil.

Neil

29-Nov-2011, 11:33 AM

She'd be completely devoured in a situation like that though Neil.

Agreed... And I said, "there were no real signed of major attack on her so she wasn't attacked on mass!"

But it would have been a nice plot twist!

krisvds

29-Nov-2011, 12:26 PM

This show is heading into classic 'Romero' territory with these two groups of people on the farm failing to communicate properly and thus posing a greater threat to one another than the zombies ever could. Love that.
Rick was pretty much spot on in this episode: in trying to keep it all together and doing what he feels is best for the group, being sensible, trying to see both sides of the coin he actually does more wrong than right. Classic TWD.

AcesandEights

29-Nov-2011, 01:05 PM

There's a few questions to be answered there. Clearly Hershel (or someone) put here in there!? So they new almost certainly the groups little girl was to be found in the barn...

And yet no one told them! Kind of makes you wonder if maybe the person who put her in there died before he could say something about it...oh, yeah--he probably did.

MikePizzoff

29-Nov-2011, 01:09 PM

And yet no one told them! Kind of makes you wonder if maybe the person who put her in there died before he could say something about it...oh, yeah--he probably did.

Yeah, I think people are skipping over what Mr Clean said on the first page. Otis probably put Sophia in there. No word of Sophia was mentioned until Otis was already dead. There's your explanation.

AcesandEights

29-Nov-2011, 01:23 PM

Yeah, I think people are skipping over what Mr Clean said on the first page. Otis probably put Sophia in there. No word of Sophia was mentioned until Otis was already dead. There's your explanation.

I get that some people want it to be a conspiracy and they're not without their reasons. However, in the end I think it'll be a case of Hershel suspecting it as a possibility, but not wanting to know or give up the secret of the barn and that's close enough to the incrimination that some viewers emotionally want to be able to lay at his feet.

Thorn

29-Nov-2011, 01:31 PM

Yeah, I think people are skipping over what Mr Clean said on the first page. Otis probably put Sophia in there. No word of Sophia was mentioned until Otis was already dead. There's your explanation.

This has been verified by Kirkman. Otis was the only one who knew.

Though I liked Neil's idea above... it would make for a great flashback. Maybe she fell in, scrambled up a wall all cat like and nimble but was bit at the last second and died in the loft before fallback in with the walkers...

Yeah it is a stretch.

;)

-- -------- Post added at 09:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ----------

My focus is on what was revealed of the beginning of the first new episode of February in the sneak peek during Hell On Wheels (didn't watch the show, but I left the TV on AMC to catch the Walking Dead sneak peek that was much more "meaty" than the "Next time on TWD" regular preview at the end of mid-season finale).

We see the pile of corpses still on the ground in front of the barn, Maggie is helping a shaky Herschel back up the steps into the farmhouse as Shane strides forward and vehemently accuses Herschel and his people of knowing about Sophia. Herschel responds angrily with the statement "Otis handled all that. I didn't know anything about that"...which Shane replies to with "That's bullshit. What, you think I'm stupid? You expect me to believe that?" To which a distraught and angry Herschel retorts "I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!"

All the while, the rest of the group has kept pace and is right in a cluster even with Shane at the bottom of the farmhouse steps, but none of them say anything. Then it flashes to Rick and Shane heatedly arguing, before finishing with a scene that was obviously a bit later of all of them (including Shane) digging graves in front of the barn.

Whatever you think about that scene, it tells us they're picking up chronologically seconds after the end of the mid-season finale and going forward from there.

I still maintain that whatever the truth about who knew what, and when, about undead-Sophia being in the barn...there's just NO WAY that Otis did all the moving of Walkers into the barn all by himself. Especially when we KNOW they weren't all put in at the same time. Realistically, Hell, remotely POSSIBLY, how does ONE MAN move multiple Walkers into a structure already containing other Walkers...and without some complex effort like tying them up and tossing them in. (Which we know wasn't done because they're all shambling freely around inside.)

Maybe Otis did the bulk of the work, and maybe even got most of the Walkers in there alone after they died but before they reanimated, but we KNOW that there have been AT LEAST TWO times that the male teen in Herschel's group has said (and was thus aware) of Walkers getting trapped in the bog as we saw during the finale. Which tells us that even if you assume Otis got Herschel's 2nd wife and stepson, plus their neighbors etc etc into the barn before they reanimated, at least one ONE other occasion (besides the one we saw Rick and Herschel dealing with) occurred where a Walker or Walkers plural (coulda been Sophia in fact) were pulled out of that bog the 2 Walkers were in. Meaning that at a bare-bones-minimum, Otis had to get at LEAST Sophia into the barn with the other Walkers already in there...and unless the teen was aware of Walker-Sophia getting stuck in the bog (which would blow a hole right there in Herschel's statement that only Otis knew about imprisoning the Walkers in any detail) that there was at LEAST one OTHER occasion where Otis took a zombie out of the bog and put it in the barn with the other Walkers.

That much is airtight. Unless that teen is a compulsive liar, that is. And I don't see him lying to Herschel with his statement "It happened again!"

Thoughts?

Edit: @Thorn: Ok, we have to respect what Kirkman stated of course. That doesn't mean it's a situation that calls for suspension of disbelief though. It's a glaring scripting error in the KEY plot element(s) of the mid-season finale. Who did what, when they did it, and who knew what when and about what is the CORE of the finale. Will of course have another post up to completely disagree with you a bit later Thorn.

Oh, and Shane was 150% right.

That had me laughing out loud here at the office and getting a few odd looks,, but they know I am jacked up anyway so... f those guys. ;) I agree as well, if it is real, then it should be in the script we shouldn't have to have it explained to us, even if they do it in a flashback.

darth los

29-Nov-2011, 01:50 PM

Rick was pretty much spot on in this episode: in trying to keep it all together and doing what he feels is best for the group, being sensible, trying to see both sides of the coin he actually does more wrong than right. Classic TWD.

That's because when you try to please eveyone you end up pleasing no one. This was exhibit A.

:cool:

blind2d

29-Nov-2011, 02:44 PM

Great episode. Sophia scene very emotional. Yes, I'm alive.

AcesandEights

29-Nov-2011, 03:02 PM

Great episode. Sophia scene very emotional.
Thanks Rorschach :p

Yes, I'm alive.

Cool, been wondering. Hope all is well, young sir.

krisvds

29-Nov-2011, 05:03 PM

That's because when you try to please eveyone you end up pleasing no one. This was exhibit A.

:cool:

Indeed. As a fan of the comics i say bring on exhibits b, c, et al. On with the deconstruction of the sheriff! ;)

Thorn

29-Nov-2011, 05:50 PM

I love Rick, it is funny to see how many people hate him. The funny thing is, in the books even more so than the show he hates himself more than anyone else ever could.

I just do not see him as a bad leader, the lesson I learned from the comics over the years is a lot of the time there is just no right choice. Like they say in War Games the only way to win is not to play.

Wyldwraith

29-Nov-2011, 05:54 PM

I can't believe I'm saying this but,...
I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for Shane. In a 30-minute time period he got hammered by some screwed up s**t 3 times rapid-fire. First, Lori hits him with her intentions and position about the baby's paternity in a way that almost seemed DESIGNED to drive him up a wall. Even if you excuse the "even if the baby was yours it will still be Rick's" portion of her statement, the follow-up was pretty much daring him to do something. "And there's nothing you can do about it!" Lori says, grinding salt into Shane's wound. That last part there...well, it's like I said, Lori is all but daring him to do something, ANYTHING about that vindictive little statement.

Next, Shane stomps away and into the RV. He immediately notices the guns and ammo are gone. I believe, based on what he did when he came back with the bag of guns that he was intending to get back at Rick and Lori both by killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Clearing the barn of Walkers, and at the same time crapping all over Rick's authority and decision-making concerning the handling of Herschel and Herschel's wishes. Having questioned Glenn, Shane quickly discovered who took the guns and how and why they left without being seen. I was glad to see Shane track Dale down, because this was 1 "Dale = Father Knows Best" course of action too far on Dale's part.

Lastly, Shane is talking to the rest of the group fairly heatedly and, while he's handed out the guns despite Maggie declaring Herschel will kick them out for it, Shane had yet to really DO anything out-of-bounds. Until the final element of "Shane's Perfect Storm" is added to the mix that is. Rick appearing with Herschel and Walkers on catch-poles a) blindsides Shane and the rest of the group AGAIN, and b) demonstrates that far from clearing the barn or even setting about immediately reinforcing it structurally, Rick is on board with putting more Walkers into that rickety barn. It was too much, too fast for Shane IMHO. Does that mean he isn't responsible for what he did? Of course not. He's a grown man and until recently a cop. However, all these screwed-up declarations, decisions and unilateral action are certainly factors of mitigation one needs to look at to really get what was going on with Shane when he lost it.

Personally, I loved how he double-tapped the female Walker on Herschel's catch-pole and then said "I just double-tapped her, center mass, you tellin me a sick person would be standing after that? Bang, Heart. Bang Lung, and it's still coming!"

Andrew Lincoln deserves an award for how beautifully he verbally set the actor playing Shane up. When Rick yells "That's enough!" and Shane strides back over and point-blank headshots the Walker as he says "THAT is ENOUGH!" That was powerful and raw stuff. The kind of portrayal that really pulls the audience into the moment with the actors, through their characters.

The breaching of the barn, and the subsequent Walker-extermination was a foregone conclusion from the moment Rick appeared with Herschel and the Walkers on catch-poles. The sight of an undead Sophia slowly advancing obviously takes center-stage in the scene's climax, but the range of rapidly cycling facial expressions and shifts in body language, PARTICULARLY from Shane the most and Rick a very close second, gave the scene's climax much of its power.

So yea, Shane was pretty much taking a page from Herschel's, Dale's and (lately) Rick's books and taking action unilaterally, and was certainly acting totally on his own thoughts and feelings without regard to the emotional and/or psychological consequences to/for anyone else, but it certainly isn't so simple as Shane just going buck-wild black-hat for no reason, while everyone else is an innocent bystander. Shane was simply reacting (badly, in some ways) to the SERIOUSLY screwed-up things said and done immediately before he went all Thunderdome on the farm. I really hope we see the others taking responsibility for building the pyre and setting it alight under Shane, but fear he's gonna take the fall for this alone.

Thoughts? Up until now I had perceived Shane as a man cut adrift whose dark side is overwhelming him. Now, and its unsettling in a way to feel like this, I'm starting to see Shane as a somewhat tragic figure whose messed up decisions/actions have a significant basis in the dysfunctional issues, actions, statements and decisions of other members of the group. Which doesn't even touch on the certain amount of validation for Shane's chosen course established by the discovery of Sophia's fate.

Shane, responsible..certainly. Powerfully influenced by the bad decisions of others? Most definitely, IMHO.

As always, conflicting assessments and the thoughts of others are more than welcome.

AcesandEights

29-Nov-2011, 06:04 PM

Well said, Thorn. I can't fault Ricks humanity, as any commodity or characteristic of that sort that is surrendered too easily in bits and pieces will lead to a full loss of it in short order.

I like how Rick often gets to where he's going reluctantly, as opposed to diving into the darkness at the first sign of trouble and just using "this is how the world works now" as an excuse. It might be so that the world works that way, but while the people who take to it too easily may have adaptive behaviors, can they really reconcile their easy acceptance of the new shift in their moral compass and still play nice with others without becoming a casualty? I always like to see how fiction approaches these questions.

-- -------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

I can't believe I'm saying this but,...
I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for Shane. In a 30-minute time period he got hammered by some screwed up s**t 3 times rapid-fire. First, Lori hits him with her intentions and position about the baby's paternity in a way that almost seemed DESIGNED to drive him up a wall. Even if you excuse the "even if the baby was yours it will still be Rick's" portion of her statement, the follow-up was pretty much daring him to do something. "And there's nothing you can do about it!" Lori says, grinding salt into Shane's wound. That last part there...well, it's like I said, Lori is all but daring him to do something, ANYTHING about that vindictive little statement.

Yeah, Shane is dealing with way too much to keep everything hammered down as tight as he normally likes to. It'll be interesting to see where the latest events push him and it's nice to have this look at a character who I had erroneously written off so long ago.

krisvds

29-Nov-2011, 06:23 PM

I love Rick, it is funny to see how many people hate him. The funny thing is, in the books even more so than the show he hates himself more than anyone else ever could.

I guess you read my 'on with the deconstruction of the sheriff' wrong. Rick's my favourite character. It's just that his totally morally justified decisions get the gang in trouble quite often in the books ... Those are my favourite moments, and make TWD truelly great zombie fiction. Since you read the comics you know what bleak territory he is heading for. I cant wait to see that on tv.

kidgloves

29-Nov-2011, 06:56 PM

Holy shit Wyld. I think i remember you having some VERY VERY strong emotional reactions to Shane last year. Good to see you come around. Thing is, im starting to go the other way. He's right to a certain extent but he's going the wrong way about it. Rick is showing the right way. He's making mistakes but don't forget that he is still relatively new to the apocalypse.

Mr_Shadow

29-Nov-2011, 07:31 PM

Maybe nobody knew Sophia was in the barn. She could of found the barn and tried to hide inside, then got bitten.

Neil

29-Nov-2011, 08:02 PM

Maybe nobody knew Sophia was in the barn. She could of found the barn and tried to hide inside, then got bitten.

Already discussed - http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?19556/page4#post275412

It would have formed a beautiful flashback, showing how ironic her death was. But alas, she would have been heavily mutilated by the walkers in the barn, but she looked fairly untouched!

kidgloves

29-Nov-2011, 08:20 PM

Already discussed - http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?19556/page4#post275412

It would have formed a beautiful flashback, showing how ironic her death was. But alas, she would have been heavily mutilated by the walkers in the barn, but she looked fairly untouched!

© Neil HPOTD

:D

Thorn

29-Nov-2011, 10:01 PM

I guess you read my 'on with the deconstruction of the sheriff' wrong. Rick's my favourite character. It's just that his totally morally justified decisions get the gang in trouble quite often in the books ... Those are my favourite moments, and make TWD truelly great zombie fiction. Since you read the comics you know what bleak territory he is heading for. I cant wait to see that on tv.

Yeah maybe a bit, it did seem as if you were looking forward to his coming unhinged. Forgive me if it was not the case, I rather enjoy his characters progression and decent into "madness" if you will. He is just so easy for me to identify with. Father, Wife (who is a whore... I KID I KID Laurie isn't really a whore... my ex is) and one young kid who is around 10. Also the value system, and superman good guy captain fix it approach to things which I am sure would get me in trouble in a ZA situation if I was not able to temper the need to fix things with the need to survive.

Shane I just hated flat out before and had no use for him as a character, now I love the guy. Not for what he does, or his motivations but because it is a brilliant character that is so well acted. How can you not admire him? He is as was termed a force of nature, you can't control him and his destruction is motivated by many things and if you happen to get in the way of him, well you might just get Ottis'd.

As to Wyld's post, I am not shocked you like him Wyld he seems like your kind of guy, the one you would put your money on, the guy you could identify with. I am shocked it took you this long to notice it... ;)

While i kid a bit it is true what you said, the episode was written brilliantly to give him as a character and an actor all the motivation he needed to come unglued. Just an amazing episode, one of the best so far in my opinion.

Wyldwraith

29-Nov-2011, 11:18 PM

@Kidgloves & Thorn:
You guys are right. Last season Shane seemed to me utterly repugnant. He'd lied to his best friend's wife about her husband being dead, hadn't hesitated or even demonstrated any awkwardness as he "stepped into Rick's shoes" with Lori and Carl, and then when against all odds Rick turns up alive, Shane came damned close to giving in to the temptation to murder his best friend and partner, a man who trust(ed) him implicitly not only with his (Rick's) own life but that of his wife and only child. The "case" against Shane only seemed to grow more damning last season, as he refused to step aside gracefully and kept pushing his unwanted advances on Lori until he finally attempted to sexually assault her.

All of which is evidence of the behavior patterns and a moral code there's been no hint of any positive change in this season, and plenty of indications that his dark side is growing stronger. The portrait of a dangerous man, who is willing to cross lines I've shed blood and tears to defend.

That said, Season 2 has been full to overflowing with both moral ambiguity, and self-justification of actions ranging from the dubious to the morally indefensible on the parts of MANY members of the group. Group members that were (seemingly, we know now) pure as fresh-fallen snow for the entirety of those events depicted in Season 1.

When you get right down to it, and I've given this a great deal of thought as well as having been part of several very spirited debates about this....The part of Shane I relate/resonate with the most is his vulnerability to moral degradation SPECIFICALLY because of his exposure to decisions ranging from the morally questionable to the outright immoral on the parts of the other members of the group. That's the first half of it. The remaining half of my core empathy for and relating to the Shane character is the unhesitating pragmatism that, combined with his good intent to protect the group in general and Lori & Carl specifically, is paving Shane's personal Road to Hell.

Dale's right in a way. Shane IS in a lot of ways very well-adapted for survival in the Zombie Apocalypse. What's tragic is that Shane's unique strengths are transmuted into debilitating failings by an environment and relationships over which he has no control. For instance, I believe that Shane would, despite even the burning pain of Lori's most recent rejection of him, lay down his life for Lori and/or Carl without hesitation. He loves them, but extraordinary circumstances have conspired to twist that love and open cracks in it that are being filled in with envy, jealousy and, most of all, bitterness.

I empathize with anyone who's had the best and most profound experiences of their life turned into a torture of longing and impossible to realize desire. What might Shane have become if Rick had indeed died, and enough time passed for Lori to put her feelings for her late husband into the place of treasured memory, and then move on with life without Rick's ghost between her and Shane? Enough time for their relationship to have become public, and for his relationship as Lori's mate and Carl's father to mature into a bond of enduring strength.

With all his happiness torn away, survival became more than survival. It became all he had left to define himself by positively. At every turn however, the rules keep changing and that poisonous bitterness has kept on growing as a result.

Just what IS the threshold of pain, bitterness, and shattered dreams for even a strong man? When the world ends, and nearly all your anchors to honor and self-respect have been sheared away, what price comes due in exchange for the strength to retain your self-control and soldier on...not only for yourself, but for people you perceive as yours to protect even if they've turned away from you?

I don't admire Shane. I don't put his operating ethos up on a pedestal...but I understand how the pain and bitterness of doing the right thing, yet having it all turn to shit on you could make one's inner beast seem like the only source of warmth left in a world grown cold and uncaring.

mpokera

30-Nov-2011, 05:29 AM

Loved this episode and cant wait til Feb, grrrrrrrr!

What makes the comics great and what the people in charge do a wonderful job of presenting to us on screen is that they are almost always well written about the people and how this horrible world changes and breaks them down. In real life and in good fiction, no one is ever all good or all bad, books and movies that portray people that way are usually lousy dreck easily seen through and then forgotten. But TWD is showing us people, good people in impossible circumstances, making choices the best way they can and having things still go horribly wrong. As was mentioned above in the comics Rick hates himself for what the wolrd has made him become and I think we can see the beginnings of that here.

-- -------- Post added at 12:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 AM ----------

As for Shane? This was such a well acted episode for his character! Watching him get slammed by circumstances right and left, just building steam more and more and more, having to fight it to deal with Carl for a bit but then still going on only to get slammed again. And then just finally, gloriously losing his shit completely! I thought it just rang totally true and was exactly the way I thought he would have reacted, just LOVED his bit with the poled walkers "You think she's a living breathing person? BLAMM "Why is she still up then? BLAMM "Heart" BLAMM "lungs!" I was honestly on the edge of my seat loving it!

And poor Zofia! How tragic was that and how wonderful were all the reactions of the actors? I honestly dont think anything about showing Herschel he could kill their own people entered into Rick's mind, I think he just felt that it was his fault she was undead and therefore his responsibility to put her down. Of course he had to do what he did but he has still felt responsible for her fate the whole time, even tho he was the only one who went after her and saved her initially,

Bring on February!

babomb

30-Nov-2011, 05:50 AM

I don't understand what was so bad about what Shane did?!
IMHO, that's what needed to happen. It was the only thing that actually made sense about the whole situation. I don't really see it as though he lost his shit. He was just tired of dealing with such a clusterfuck situation. They weren't allowed to carry their weapons, then he finds out the barn is full of walkers and Rick is helping Hershel put more walkers in it. He was right on all counts. The farm was totally unsafe at that point, and the right thing to do was to leave, really. It was a crazy situation. Rick doesn't want to leave because Lori is pregnant, but he has no problem with her sleeping 100 yards from a rickety old barn that's full of walkers? He's even willing to put more walkers in that same old barn for his pregnant wife to sleep near, in nothing but a tent? And they can't have their weapons on them while all this is happening?!
Seems like Shane was the only one thinking clearly about the situation.

Sammich

30-Nov-2011, 06:09 AM

Legion2213

30-Nov-2011, 11:54 AM

The problem with Shane is that he is a sociopath. Everything he does is only for his benefit or self-preservation and if anyone in the group follows him they will eventually
end up being expendable like Otis. He would only fit in with something like motorcycle gang from Dawn and it wouldn't surprise me if he was a crooked cop before everything
happened.

Nail on the head.

Brilliant character, brilliantly acted by Jon Bernthal...but totally untrustworthy and dodgy as Hell if he was part of your own group in real life.

Bernthal and the writers have done a great job making him far more than just a cookie cutter, mustache twirling bad guy, but he is still bad news as far as I am concerned.

Neil

30-Nov-2011, 12:15 PM

The problem with Shane is that he is a sociopath. Everything he does is only for his benefit or self-preservation and if anyone in the group follows him they will eventually
end up being expendable like Otis. He would only fit in with something like motorcycle gang from Dawn and it wouldn't surprise me if he was a crooked cop before everything
happened.
Don't see him as black and white as that. If you think back to his trip to get those medical supplies, that was in no way for his benefit or self-preservation... Quite the opposite.

I think he simply sees the world for what it has become, rather than what it might be. He therefore is far more black and white and pragmatic in his choices...

shootemindehead

30-Nov-2011, 12:21 PM

Shane is a dangerous fecker. If I was Dale, I'd have blown him away.

No good for the party in general, just like Merle.

Legion2213

30-Nov-2011, 12:26 PM

Don't see him as black and white as that. If you think back to his trip to get those medical supplies, that was in no way for his benefit or self-preservation... Quite the opposite.

I think he simply sees the world for what it has become, rather than what it might be. He therefore is far more black and white and pragmatic in his choices...

If it had been Sophia needing those supplies, he would have made every excuse under the sun not to go. Saving Carl equaled saving a chance with Lori who he wants...this was all about "gain for Shane" IMO.

-- -------- Post added at 01:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

Shane is a dangerous fecker. If I was Dale, I'd have blown him away.

No good for the party in general, just like Merle.

Absolutely. You would not turn your back on him if he was part of your group...even his best friend Rick has been gazed at through iron sights...

AcesandEights

30-Nov-2011, 01:51 PM

The problem with Shane is that he is a sociopath. Everything he does is only for his benefit or self-preservation and if anyone in the group follows him they will eventually
end up being expendable like Otis. He would only fit in with something like motorcycle gang from Dawn and it wouldn't surprise me if he was a crooked cop before everything
happened.

If it had been Sophia needing those supplies, he would have made every excuse under the sun not to go. Saving Carl equaled saving a chance with Lori who he wants...this was all about "gain for Shane" IMO.

I completely agree with your points, gents. Shane might externally rationalize everything he does to try and sell the rest of the group on going along, but all too often there's very little earnest motivation in his actions when the going gets tough.

Wyldwraith

30-Nov-2011, 03:15 PM

Shane's NOT a sociopath,
A sociopath wouldn't have a flashback to his "evil act" in kneecapping and savagely beating Otis as he gazed in the mirror. A sociopath wouldn't have had a genuine emotional reaction of any kind about what happened, and a sociopath CERTAINLY WOULDN'T have hesitated and been uncomfortable with speaking at Otis's funeral and describing Otis's last moments when asked. By definition, a sociopath is one who FEELS no difference between "good" and "evil" acts. Shane was obviously hesitant to speak of Otis, and when he did he placed Otis's memory above his own achievements. Some might say that's just him camouflaging what he did to Otis, but if that was the case there were plenty of ways he could've painted Otis as other than a hero and still not be seemingly responsible for Otis's death. The most obvious that comes to mind is simply saying Otis couldn't keep up and stay ahead of the Walker horde during a long-distance pursuit. Even Rick saw Otis huffing, puffing, sweating like a waterfall and strawberry red on the run to Herschel's house when Rick was carrying Carl. When Otis dropping back began to slow his run down, Rick interrogated Otis for directions to the farm house and ran on ahead. So there would've been no reason to suspect Shane if he'd said Otis just couldn't keep up the relentless pace required to reach the truck ahead of the Walkers while both men were injured. To a sociopath, either account would have served his self-centered purpose of dodging culpability for Otis's death, but Shane chose to paint Otis as a hero. Why? He recognized Otis's wife needed to believe her husband's death had meaning, and he outright said "If any death ever had meaning, it was his (Otis's). He saved me and Carl both (paraphrasing that last part)." A sociopath wouldn't have intuitively recognized what Otis's wife needed to believe. Yes, a sociopath might have said something somewhat comforting to "maintain his cover" but the emotional nuances of what Otis's widow was going through wouldn't be something a sociopath could or would have recognized, and those emotional nuances wouldn't choke up a sociopath (even if it was all about him).

Shane has serious problems, but a sociopath he is not. Homicidal under the right circumstances? Absolutely. Prioritizing himself before individuals he has little to no connection or emotional investment in? Definitely.

I also agree that what Shane did concerning the Walkers in the barn and the pair on the catch-poles was an inevitable result of Rick's failure to meaningfully address the ongoing danger posed by that old barn. There was that great scene before all the handing out of guns, breaching of the barn and shooting went down. Shane got up close and personal with the barn. Seeing what he could see of the number and size of the Walkers in the barn through a gap in its slats, and comprehensively testing the barn's security measures in a hands-on manner. Shane was genuinely seeking information about the barn's condition, and therefore how serious or potentially imminent the dangers posed by the Walkers inside really is. If you watch closely, Shane's ENTIRE DEMEANOR changes when the barn doors bulge outward several inches with only a portion of the Walkers he (Shane) could see through that gap in the slats pushing against the barn doors from the inside.

Can anyone here honestly say they wouldn't be up in arms about having to sleep less than a hundred yards from that EXTREMELY weathered barn? After having gone through the terrifying attack at their previous camp?

Shane's reactions were understandable, if nothing else. First, he waits to see what Rick is going to do about Glenn's announcement concerning the Walkers in the barn. When Rick says he's going to go talk to Herschel about the issue, Shane waits for Rick's return passively. When Rick returns, Shane (very understandably) wants to know the result of Rick's conversation with Herschel. Despite receiving a very ambiguous answer from Rick, Shane still demonstrates his willingness to follow Rick's lead as he then asks Rick "So, what now?" Rick's intentions were good, but he basically left Shane hanging there without much of an answer. Then Rick goes off with Herschel, without saying anything to anyone in the group concerning where he's going or what he's doing.

It's after all this that Lori and Shane have that ugly and seriously f**k'd up conversation about the paternity of her baby on the way. Only in the wake of that mess does Shane finally decide to act independently of Rick. Which is when he discovers the hyper-control-freak move Dale has pulled with the guns and ammo. Again I say, after retrieving said guns, Shane does nothing more than arm the group and talk about the ongoing danger of the Walkers in the barn "a stone's throw from where they sleep."

It's only after witnessing Rick taking actions that UNEQUIVOCALLY declare where Rick stands on the danger of the Walkers in the barn that Shane forces the issue. Obviously the majority of the group didn't think his little anatomical show and tell on the nature of the Undead via firearm was unacceptable. Nor did we hear anyone but Rick and maybe Lori or Herschel's people vocalize an objection to his actions in breaching the barn. As many others have pointed out, but for Shane forcing the issue here, more injuries and/or fatalities could've been caused by the continuation of the doomed search for Sophia.

Was what Shane did tactless and undiplomatic? Sure. Was it wrong and/or "crazy" that he did so? I don't believe so. If a person believes a potentially imminent threat to their life and the lives of others exist, and every alternative save taking action directly has been blocked, what's immoral about taking a definitively final course of action to neutralize that threat? It wouldn't have even been unreasonable position to believe the Walkers in the barn might very well have been released in an uncontrolled manner by the obviously imminent attempt to add more Walkers to said barn.

So, what exactly was unstable or dysfunctional about Shane's reactions under those circumstances? Keeping in mind I'm NOT saying his chosen course was the IDEAL response, just not crazy and/or irrational.

As always, differing opinions and points-of-view are more than welcome.

Legion2213

30-Nov-2011, 03:25 PM

krisvds

30-Nov-2011, 04:15 PM

The fact that Shane isn't a stereotypical 'bad' guy is another big plus for this series. Ethically ambiguous, he seems to be on a path leading to insanity. The whole zombiegeddon is bringing out the worst in him and he can't keep the animal under control. He's definitely dangerous. And he is an opportunist, choosing what is obviously 'ethically wrong' to please his own needs with little to no regard for principle. This will only get worse in the second half of this season i suppose. If I were Dale I would watch my back.

kidgloves

30-Nov-2011, 05:20 PM

Wyld there is a simple difference between Shane and the others in the group especially Rick.

None of the others would murder me for their own gain, Shane would and he'd do it without hesitation, he might feel a wee bit sorry about it afterwards, but it wouldn't help me lying six feet under or being gutted by walkers with a sneaky bullet in my kneecap while he makes off, for Gods sake man, he was about to murder his best friend in cold blood until Dale came along. Shane cares about Shane and about what Shane wants. If he isn't a sociopath he is hairs breadth away from one.

He simply cannot be trusted.

Shane wasn't about to murder Rick. Rick walked into his sights, Shane hesitated then dropped his aim and turned to see Dale. Thats completely different Legion.

He definately wouldn't risk himself for the others though. In season 1 Lori argues with him about putting signs on the highway and he's resistant to that. He also didn't want to even entertain the idea of trying to rescue the group when they were trapped in the building in episode 2. Its all about Shane when it boils down to it

Legion2213

30-Nov-2011, 05:33 PM

Kid, he tracks him for around 16 seconds and gets a murderous look on his face then drops his gun barrell (yes, I did just check to be sure). :D

Sorry mate, the intent and the thought was there...he seriously considered murdering his best friend and partner.

This Shane isn't the Shane who tried to carry his buddy out of the hospital back at the begining of the apocalypse...he is changed and he is dangerous. If you aren't Lori or Carl you are simply an obsticle to be disposed of, everybody is expendable now, even his best friend.

AcesandEights

30-Nov-2011, 05:54 PM

With all hat said, does anyone think they might pull a self-redeeming death out for Shane at some point?

blind2d

30-Nov-2011, 05:59 PM

Maybe. I kinda hope so, but I still don't like Shane at all. Maybe I'm too judgmental.

PS: I'm not on here a lot because of other things... My girlfriend, school, grimdark ponies...

krisvds

30-Nov-2011, 06:00 PM

No; Short of growing fangs and sprouting claws I think Shane will turn into a diabolical madman. They will have to put him down like a mad dog.

babomb

30-Nov-2011, 06:09 PM

He definately wouldn't risk himself for the others though. In season 1 Lori argues with him about putting signs on the highway and he's resistant to that. He also didn't want to even entertain the idea of trying to rescue the group when they were trapped in the building in episode 2. Its all about Shane when it boils down to it He risked himself searching that housing complex with Andrea, they were looking for Sophia too. It wasn't until after they returned that Shane decided the search was too costly. If he felt it was merely too costly for his own liking as it pertained specifically to him, then he could've simply refused to take part in future searches. But instead he speaks to the safety of the group as a whole in relation to the search(that almost killed Daryl) for a girl that is most likely already dead. And he was right about that. He also takes part in the planning for the searches on more than 1 occasion. I don't think it's as B/W as others seem to think.

kidgloves

30-Nov-2011, 06:26 PM

He risked himself searching that housing complex with Andrea, they were looking for Sophia too. It wasn't until after they returned that Shane decided the search was too costly. If he felt it was merely too costly for his own liking as it pertained specifically to him, then he could've simply refused to take part in future searches. But instead he speaks to the safety of the group as a whole in relation to the search(that almost killed Daryl) for a girl that is most likely already dead. And he was right about that. He also takes part in the planning for the searches on more than 1 occasion. I don't think it's as B/W as others seem to think.

The housing complex wasn't really about "Zophia" ©MZ. It was about Andrea and didn't Shane get some tail as a result of it?

MinionZombie

30-Nov-2011, 07:18 PM

The housing complex wasn't really about "Zophia" ©MZ.

:D

It was about Andrea and didn't Shane get some tail as a result of it?

I'd say he was reluctant to search that housing estate, and I too saw it as more important thematically for other reasons - mainly bringing about 'The Andrea-nator' with her gun skills, and showing the push/pull between Andrea and Shane in regards to pragmatism and how far it should really go in this world ... and yes, he certainly did get lucky. I'd wager I'm not the only one who did a double-take when Andrea grabbed his semi-on. :lol::lol::lol:

This is all rather delicious character stuff - I think with all this, we've got an excellent 6 episodes ahead of us come February! :cool:

Legion2213

30-Nov-2011, 07:27 PM

I think it's fair to say that most men thought "damn, I wish she was molesting me" at that crotch-grabbing moment. :D

Role on Febuary! :thumbsup:

Wyldwraith

30-Nov-2011, 07:29 PM

Oh come on now,
What Shane did regarding Andrea was probably some of the most altruistic behavior we've seen out of him in ages. He didn't have to work with her 1-on-1 about her shooting, and when it became clear he'd crossed the line he apologized and offered Andrea exactly the sort of opportunity she wanted. Then, when her gun jams Shane caps the Walker that's too close to her, calmly tells her to clear the jam, and instead of treating her like a defenseless dependent, Shane made it clear verbally and physically that he was covering her and pushed her outside of her comfort zone by offering her the responsibility to defend herself on her own behalf. A CLASSIC example of the old saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime."

Had Andrea proven unable to either clear the jammed round or subsequently take down the approaching Walker (which Shane had a bead on as well), Shane would've put the Walker down and finished clearing them a path to their vehicle/escape. As a result of Shane expecting Andrea to take care of business herself, Andrea discovered a previously unknown capacity to focus and react effectively under life-or-death pressure. The sex was a spontaneous result of the "rush" brought on by victory and achievement on Andrea's part.

Not to mention that the sexual overture was 100% Andrea's doing, and something that took Shane completely by surprise as he was driving. Surely no one here believes that what went down after the shootout at the housing subdivision was some sort of Uber-Machiavellian master plan on Shane's part to score a piece from Andrea? Shane just isn't that smart and/or foresighted.

I think it's going more than a bit too far to say Shane doesn't care in any manner for members of the group that aren't Lori and Carl. They're definitely his core focus, but I think there's more to Shane than just his focus on Lori and Carl.

AcesandEights

30-Nov-2011, 07:43 PM

Shane wouldn't be as interesting a character as he's turned out to be if he was bereft of all humanity.

No, the window dressing is still up and maybe some of the pictures haven't been packed up in boxes yet, but the furniture is already halfway out the door.

Hop on the metaphor train!

sandrock74

30-Nov-2011, 08:46 PM

With all hat said, does anyone think they might pull a self-redeeming death out for Shane at some point?

I don't think thats out of the question. I can see Shane having some sort of last minute "realization" (maybe even feeling a need/desire to atone for Otis' death) and sacrifice himself so the others - specifically Lori and Carl - can live on. Remember, in life, no one thinks that they are the bad guy...even if they are. I'm reminded of a saying, in comicbooks, no group of villains would actually call themselves "The Masters of Evil" or "The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants". Shane could go down in a blaze of glory for all the wrong reasons, thinking himself being the hero.

Would that make up for his past misdeeds? Should he then be thought of as having been a swell guy? I dunno. Human nature is weird!

Sammich

30-Nov-2011, 09:11 PM

Didn't Shane say something to the effect that this is "his type of world" now and Rick's adherence to humanity (i.e. compassion and empathy) are useless and dangerous?

Shane's acts of remorse are superficial and he quickly reverts back to rationalizations. Compare that to Rick blaming himself about Sophia's disappearance and insistance on continuing the search for her even though he knew deep down she was most likely dead.

Dale being the oldest guy in the group, most likely has had his own dealings with psychopaths and sociopaths through the years and is how he can see right though Shane's facade. Just from personal experience, once one experiences first hand exactly how vicious, manipulative and superficial these types of people one will never forget it.

I have a feeling that in a twist of irony Shane is going to die similar to the way Otis did, giving the group time to get out of a perilous situation, only it will be due to his own selfishness that gets him in the situation instead of a heroic act.

acealive1

01-Dec-2011, 01:22 AM

people are calling shane crazy and whatever else......but how would you act if the world went to shit in a weeks time?

Thorn

01-Dec-2011, 02:28 AM

people are calling shane crazy and whatever else......but how would you act if the world went to shit in a weeks time?

No one knows.

That said I like to think I would act more like Rick and less like Shane ;) There is value in each man however.

AcesandEights

01-Dec-2011, 02:37 AM

how would you act if the world went to shit in a weeks time?

I would knock up my best friend's wife. Think about killing my best friend when he inconveniently turned out to be alive. Murder a well-meaning person I just met to save my own skin and then lie about it. Contemplate violent property seizure of someone who had opened their home to me. Maybe have a meltdown and suddenly force an issue with some impromptu violence to put people's lives at risk...you know...to save them.

Then call it a week.

I don't think many people could probably survive a long time in an end of the world situation (in which they are unable to be highly isolated) without accumulating a laundry list of deeds that qualify as things "no one should have to do", but Shane seems to be ahead of the curve at these sorts of things and seemingly excels at casually embracing violence & amoral means to reach his ends, because "that's not the way the world works anymore" (which really means he can now get away with it).

Wyldwraith

01-Dec-2011, 04:36 AM

I don't think Shane is getting a fair shake here,
Damn him for his misdeeds, but its a bridge too far to damn him for what he MIGHT have done. Does considering an evil act equal the commission of said act? Of course not. Though I can understand how it can give people pause and color their perceptions of Shane. It certainly colors MY view of the man.

HOWEVER, TWD isn't nearly as simple as Rick = White Hat, Shane = Black Hat. If it was it wouldn't be nearly the show it's turned out to be. Though the point about villains not thinking of themselves as villains is well taken. I wouldn't be so quick to laud Rick for his insistence to continue a search that nearly killed both his son AND one of their group's most valuable members. It's easy to forget that Shane's actions are also demonstrative of Rick's bad call resulting in serious trouble for the group.

IMHO, NEITHER Rick or Shane are exemplars of ideal leaders in a post-apocalyptic environment. I think people are too quick to give Rick a free pass on the fallout of his mistakes because they agree with his moral ethos. What would we be saying if Rick had never come back, Sophia had still gone missing when the Walker herd came through and say, Daryl or Dale had been the bulldogs advocating the continuation of the search indefinitely?

You know, it's not like anyone is saying that Shane's meltdown during the finale is some sterling example of morality. Just that it's a viable, UNDERSTANDABLE, reaction to a series of external pressures.
Finally, I don't believe it's a fair assessment of the man Shane is (flaws and all) to try and stretch his murderously prioritizing his own life and that of Carl into a contention that Shane would kill members of their group as he killed Otis. First, in the privacy of the bathroom the man was obviously being affected by the emotional fallout of what he'd done. Next, let's not forget that people OFTEN do things they wouldn't so much as DREAM of being capable of when hideous imminent death is bearing down on one. We can't know what was in Shane's mind when he did what he did to Otis. Maybe (and this isn't an attempt to excuse the murder he committed) Shane was thinking "because of this fat a-hole me and Carl are BOTH going to die." Or he could have been thinking any number of other things.

What would you say if Shane truly, to the core of his being, believed his only available choices were a) He, Otis and Carl all die, and Rick/Lori are left utterly broken (we already know that Lori thinks about the bad feeling she had about letting Rick take Carl on the search for Sophia, and what happened to Carl as a result)...what effect would such thinking have had on Lori (and by extension Rick) had Carl perished? Or b) Shane does what he did to Otis and 2 out of 3 of the lives in physical jeopardy, plus the 2 lives in emotional and psychological jeopardy survive. Not talking about the objective reality of the situation Shane and Otis were in, just how Shane perceived that reality.

If Shane was really the conduit of total darkness some believe him to be, why didn't he just do away with Dale while they were alone? They were in a swamp after all....plenty of ways to make his death look like something other than Murder-by-Shane.

I see Shane as a man equally in both light and shadow...and the shadows seem to be intensifying.

sandrock74

01-Dec-2011, 05:00 AM

If Shane was really the conduit of total darkness some believe him to be, why didn't he just do away with Dale while they were alone? They were in a swamp after all....plenty of ways to make his death look like something other than Murder-by-Shane.

Because, Dale was holding a loaded rifle and Shane was unarmed. Dale wouldn't shoot Shane in cold-blooded murder, but I'm sure he would if Shane made a threatening move towards him. That's the difference between murder and self-defense!

Even after Shane grabbed the sack of guns, Dale could have easily blown him away if Shane began to rummage thru it while muttering, "I'm gonna get you!"...so Shane had no real choice other than to grab the sack o' guns and split peacefully. I think him not killing Dale was just that. Of course, he may not have wanted to come up with some complex story of how the Predator showed up and took Dale away. (by the way, I love the "Murder-by-Shane" label!)

babomb

01-Dec-2011, 06:32 AM

because "that's not the way the world works anymore" (which really means he can now get away with it). I don't think that's quite what he meant actually. That would imply that before the end he would've liked to be able to do these things but was unable to. I don't think he's quite that despicable of a human being.

-- -------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 AM ----------

Because, Dale was holding a loaded rifle and Shane was unarmed. Dale wouldn't shoot Shane in cold-blooded murder, but I'm sure he would if Shane made a threatening move towards him. That's the difference between murder and self-defense!

Even after Shane grabbed the sack of guns, Dale could have easily blown him away if Shane began to rummage thru it while muttering, "I'm gonna get you!"...so Shane had no real choice other than to grab the sack o' guns and split peacefully. I think him not killing Dale was just that. Of course, he may not have wanted to come up with some complex story of how the Predator showed up and took Dale away. (by the way, I love the "Murder-by-Shane" label!) Dale wasn't about to do anything. Shane could've killed the old guy with his bare hands and nobody would've known a thing for certain. Dale has a hunting rifle with a bolt action. He had the ability to get 1 shot off. Once Shane got face to face with him Dale no longer had the upper hand(not that he actually ever had the upper hand to begin with). Shane could've easily avoided that single shot and taken Dale out. So IMO, that's not why Shane made the decision not to do anything to Dale.

toxic

01-Dec-2011, 07:32 AM

Otis finding the girl doesn't really work too well, though I suppose it is possible. The thing is that the last episode made it sound like they only wrangled zombies that had wandered onto their property. It's unlikely Sophia would have been zombified and then made a beeline to the farm, at least in the short time between her getting lost and and when they found Otis.

More likely Herschel or one of his people found her, but because they knew Rick and Shane would want to kill her, they kept her secret because they thought they were saving her life.

Most likely they didn't especially plan on having her in the barn but then decided it would be a really cool mid-season twist and realized that they might as well put her in the barn.

AcesandEights

01-Dec-2011, 01:11 PM

I don't think Shane is getting a fair shake here

To me it's about prevalence and ease of falling into the behavior we've seen. Someone doing one of those things in a short time in the given circumstances can more easily fall back on the hey it's crazy days out there in the wild defense, but Shane has been written to be this character who falls ass backwards into morally questionable or amoral decisions.

Thorn

01-Dec-2011, 01:39 PM

I would knock up my best friend's wife. Think about killing my best friend when he inconveniently turned out to be alive. Murder a well-meaning person I just met to save my own skin and then lie about it. Contemplate violent property seizure of someone who had opened their home to me. Maybe have a meltdown and suddenly force an issue with some impromptu violence to put people's lives at risk...you know...to save them.

Then call it a week.

I don't think many people could probably survive a long time in an end of the world situation (in which they are unable to be highly isolated) without accumulating a laundry list of deeds that qualify as things "no one should have to do", but Shane seems to be ahead of the curve at these sorts of things and seemingly excels at casually embracing violence & amoral means to justify his ends, because "that's not the way the world works anymore" (which really means he can now get away with it).

Dear god this was hysterical.

-- -------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 AM ----------

Otis finding the girl doesn't really work too well, though I suppose it is possible. The thing is that the last episode made it sound like they only wrangled zombies that had wandered onto their property. It's unlikely Sophia would have been zombified and then made a beeline to the farm, at least in the short time between her getting lost and and when they found Otis.

More likely Herschel or one of his people found her, but because they knew Rick and Shane would want to kill her, they kept her secret because they thought they were saving her life.

Most likely they didn't especially plan on having her in the barn but then decided it would be a really cool mid-season twist and realized that they might as well put her in the barn.

For the third time it has been confirmed by Kirkman Otis found the girl, and no one else had knowledge of it.

She could have been bit and ran as fast as she could and that led her along the stream towards the farm where she got stuck in the mud. Works fine for me.

Neil

01-Dec-2011, 03:08 PM

Yeeeah, now that's what's up! Loved that ending and Shane going off like that was just awesome.

I'm gonna assume Hershel knew about the little girl and didn't want to say anything.

Imagine if Hershel or someone else on the farm was somehow involved in her death?

krisvds

01-Dec-2011, 03:55 PM

Imagine if Hershel or someone else on the farm was somehow involved in her death?

Hmmm. Would make for a cool twist. But didn't she have bitemarks? i would assume she got bitten out in the woods by one of the undead we saw in earlier episodes, shambled into the bog, got found by Otis.

Cykotic

01-Dec-2011, 04:40 PM

Imagine if Hershel or someone else on the farm was somehow involved in her death?

ooh, never thought of that... may explain why hershel is so determined to get rid of them...

bring on episode 8!

AcesandEights

01-Dec-2011, 04:45 PM

Imagine if Hershel or someone else on the farm was somehow involved in her death?

Shane did it. :D

Thorn

01-Dec-2011, 05:07 PM

Shane did it. :D
He has done everyone... erm everything else bad on the show.

sandrock74

01-Dec-2011, 09:53 PM

Shane did it. :D

I knew it!

Zombie Snack

01-Dec-2011, 10:15 PM

Zophia did not look like she had been stuck in a muddy boggy creek when she came out of the barn...maybe all the mud had dried and fell off of her shoes, legs, pants and such. Kirkman can say what he wants, but Otis finding her and wrangling her in the barn and not telling anyone...that just does not seem logical...maybe Otis wanted to keep her a secret, maybe Otis likes little zombie girls.

AcesandEights

01-Dec-2011, 10:50 PM

Zophia did not look like she had been stuck in a muddy boggy creek when she came out of the barn...

Now that is a very interesting point! Good eyes.

Kirkman can say what he wants, but Otis finding her and wrangling her in the barn and not telling anyone...that just does not seem logical.

I sort of hope it becomes a non-issue, but they may retcon it, as someone else mentioned.

Then again, it seems logical to me. He didn't see anyone handy to mention it to before he grabbed his firearm and headed out the door...then he shot a little boy by mistake (oops) so he was preoccupied. Then he died. Hershel never suspected the little girl was there, as he'd never heard a report about a little girl from Otis. All very simple and straightforward, no conspiracy theories necessary.

Zombie Snack

02-Dec-2011, 01:43 AM

That sounds logical too....but I think, purposeful or not, the way everything played out it's very easy to take for granted someone else knew, at least for me anyways. This would make some great flashback scenes.

babomb

02-Dec-2011, 09:22 AM

Hopefully there's a skirmish and Hershel off's himself after lighting the farm on fire. Then the group takes their show on the road where we get to see some of the world gone to shit and how they survive in it. I'm really sick of all this Little House On The Prairie shit!!!

kidgloves

02-Dec-2011, 04:41 PM

I really wouldn't be surprised if staying on the farm is linked to the budget cuts and don't forget they are an episode down in terms of numbers. More money that had to be found.
Hopefully they have loaded most of the budget in the 2nd half of the season.

bassman

02-Dec-2011, 04:43 PM

Hopefully they have loaded most of the budget in the 2nd half of the season.

In a recent interview Norman Reedus(Daryl) says that the second half of the season is really the "fireworks". Looks like the people that were bored with the drama may get more of the action they were hoping for.

kidgloves

02-Dec-2011, 04:50 PM

In a recent interview Norman Reedus(Daryl) says that the second half of the season is really the "fireworks". Looks like the people that were bored with the drama may get more of the action they were hoping for.

Yeah. This surviving on the road and moving locations costs bundles in production. People need to understand that. You can't have an action movie every episode or even 2 episodes on a tv budget. I can see the complaints already when they arrive where we think they will at the end of this season.

AcesandEights

02-Dec-2011, 04:59 PM

I can see the complaints already when they arrive where we think they will at the end of this season.

I had that very thought this morning :lol:

Legion2213

02-Dec-2011, 06:51 PM

Yeah. This surviving on the road and moving locations costs bundles in production. People need to understand that. You can't have an action movie every episode or even 2 episodes on a tv budget. I can see the complaints already when they arrive where we think they will at the end of this season.

I think people are aware of these issues/constraints, but if you are told a series is about zombiegeddon, it's not unreasonable to want to see zombiegeddon. :)

As an aside...another two months wait sucks cock! :(

I think in a way that I almost enjoyed this (half) season more than the first season...sort of. Maybe it's because we know enough about most of the characters now or something.

AcesandEights

02-Dec-2011, 07:03 PM

Legion2213

02-Dec-2011, 07:11 PM

Yeah, I definitely feel attached. It struck me the other day that anything could happen to Daryl. I mean, anything could happen to anyone, but Daryl is a very unknown quantity as a non-canonical character. It'd be crazy to see him as a zed. That'd be great if it happens eventually, too. Gotta be somewhat ruthless with the known quantities in the storytelling department, at some point.

Actually, maybe the farm lay off wasn't so bad, in season one (all six episodes) we met quite a few people/groups which didn't leave much time to get to know the main characters, most folks have probably decided on who they like and don't like so much now.

Oh, they better not kill Daryl, he is the fucking man! Brilliant character, I think I'd cry like a girl if they offed him. :D

AcesandEights

02-Dec-2011, 07:16 PM

Oh, they better not kill Daryl, he is the fucking man! Brilliant character, I think I'd cry like a girl if they offed him. :D

I think it's best if they run lean on the mercy and keep no sacred calves un-munched :p

bassman

02-Dec-2011, 07:16 PM

I love the fact that everyone roots for Daryl now. I remember when he first appeared everyone was complaining about how he was a cliched character and was thrown in for the ADD audiences. :lol:

AcesandEights

02-Dec-2011, 07:30 PM

I remember when he first appeared everyone was complaining about how he was a cliched character and was thrown in for the ADD audiences. :lol:

To be fair, the character is still written as a tad too cool for school, for my taste. Cool character, but when he ragdolled that zombie without sh*tt*ng himself I figured he must have done some time at the zombie hunter academy (passed advanced hand to hand, but failed safety 101). It'd be more believable if he came across as a bit more damaged, though seeing his bro this season is a move in the right direction, perhaps :)

kidgloves

02-Dec-2011, 07:39 PM

Im not that fussed about Daryl tbh.
Killing him off would be a great statement.
DO IT KIRKMAN DO IT.
Give us TWD we all know and love. :evil:

Cykotic

02-Dec-2011, 10:05 PM

since sophia was zombified and no character is safe, why not have maggie get bit, glenn grow a pair, hershel finally come to the realisation that his daughter is gonna die and come around to the group's way of thinking!

Since shane is becoming like the comic version, why not finally let rick do what needs to be done....

or maybe lori?

screw it, dale should cap him.

Tricky

02-Dec-2011, 10:18 PM

Thorn

02-Dec-2011, 11:51 PM

To be fair, the character is still written as a tad too cool for school, for my taste. Cool character, but when he ragdolled that zombie without sh*tt*ng himself I figured he must have done some time at the zombie hunter academy (passed advanced hand to hand, but failed safety 101). It'd be more believable if he came across as a bit more damaged, though seeing his bro this season is a move in the right direction, perhaps :)
I agree with this he was written in as a bad ass character people could identify with, or the anti hero type. Not like Shane who is being vilified by most and in my opinion rightfully so in many cases. Darryl is more the bad boy turns hero but does it in his own bad ass way. The hillbilly Punisher, or Gambit without the playing cards..

Trin

03-Dec-2011, 07:55 AM

I have been really so-so with this season. They've made so many of the characters unlikeable. The plotlines are just dragging on. The situations are not terribly interesting or believable. The choices they make are just ... bleck. The drama is way over-dramatized.

However, this last episode was good. The Sophia barn thing ... I was totally not expecting that. It caught me completely off guard. And I loved it. It was a great way to explain why they hadn't found her, and to kill the hope.

I also enjoyed the Shane explosion, although they've gone way too far making Shane the bad guy. I repeat what I said in season 1... they are just plain jerking us around with what they show of Shane. How we see Shane is 100% contrived based on how they want us to feel about him from scene to scene, episode to episode.

To the prevailing debate... I don't care what Kirkman says... it is implausible to think that Herschel (or others) did not know Sophia was in the barn. I don't see Otis putting her in there without help and without telling Herschel. I don't see Otis putting her in there without telling at least someone (especially the girl feeding them). And I don't think the girl feeding them wouldn't have noticed her.

I *do* see Herschel hiding the fact that she was in there from the group. He proved he would withhold information to protect his skewed view of the world. He proved he held little value for the lives of outsiders.

Forgetting all that... assuming Herschel genuinely did not know ... he (or any of his family) still should've considered the possibility that Sophia was in the barn and gone to check it out. The group was searching the area for a week looking for someone who disappeared within walking distance of their farm ... it never occurred to any of them she might be one of them that they brought in?

I've hated Herschel from about the second Carl started to improve. Now I think Herschel deserves to die.

Darryl is my favorite character by far. I wish he hadn't gone all ear-wearing nutso seeing his brother. He was the only one not cracking. I hope that's not foreshadowing. If Darryl goes the Shane route, I won't have much incentive to watch. :(

Wyldwraith

03-Dec-2011, 10:14 AM

@Trin:
Your position was very elegant in its articulation, and I agree with all the points you made about knowledge of "Zophia" in the barn, and the how of how she got there.

Our thinking has pretty well dovetailed on this. Herschel has wanted to know EVERYTHING his people are doing, at all times. This has been an extremely consistent personality trait. Given the emphasis and worked-up nature of the teen from Herschel's group running in to report to Herschel that "It" (zombies stuck in the bog) happened again, I don't see the capture of any zombie and putting it in the barn as something so routine as to go without mention.

Also, your point about Otis having done it, then having time to go deer hunting is a chronology they've fast-forwarded past. As portrayed, we're expected to believe Otis wrangled Zophia into the barn alone, and then went and got his rifle to go deer-hunting, and he didn't say anything about it to anyone else on the farm. Why would Otis's reaction to the capture and containment of a zombie, especially a young girl turned zombie, be so different from the teen's when he informed Herschel?

I'm with you in saying that Kirkman's statement is an illogical cop-out. Even so, we shared another point in our thinking, concerning the woman feeding the Walkers somehow failing to notice a new child-zombie in the barn. Especially when these newcomers are all up in arms 24/7 about a missing little girl. Implausible, to say the VERY least.

I agree that the midseason finale was a very satisfying, meaty and solidly crafted pause-point before the series picks up in February. I think they're going a bit far with black-hatting Shane as heavily as they have just because he doesn't play nicety-nice all the time. Shane's statements to Lori about how many times he's saved hers and Carl's lives hits on this point quite well IMO.

All in all, an excellent post Trin, and one I agree with wholeheartedly.

MinionZombie

03-Dec-2011, 10:48 AM

Holy shit that was a powerful mid season cliff hanger there, really well done scene & at that point it clicked why its been fairly slow burning in this series up until that point. What happened there is going to change every single character in that scene in one way or another for good...

Aye, they really go all-out with that sequence - I'll re-watch it on the Sky+ over lunch methinks. I personally watched the episode early as I sure as shit didn't want to stumble on any spoilers (fortunately not a single one dropped, but I'd rather be safe than sorry - and this mid-season-finale could have easily been spoiled completely).

I think killing of Daryl would be a terrible idea - he's such a kick ass character. Now, get him into some major scrapes? Sure - his time in the woods by that waterfall were great - but I'd absolutely hate to see that character go. Now I do wonder if someone like T-Dog will be up for the chopping block come the next six episodes - he's not done an awful lot thus far this season, so who knows?

I think there's an important dynamic with Glenn & Maggie - a new relationship born in this world specifically, and seeing how it develops compared to that of Rick & Lori, which was long established in the old world and was almost instantly challenged in numerous ways. So I think it's an interesting comparison.

Now that Sophia is no more, I wonder if we'll meet any new child characters in the coming episodes ... there's no doubt production issues relating to child actors (with the reduced hours they can legally work), so you can't afford to have too much of that carry on ... but having only one child in this apocalypse-surviving group? I think they need to find Carl a new girlfriend now. :D

shootemindehead

03-Dec-2011, 03:58 PM

To be fair, the character is still written as a tad too cool for school, for my taste.

+1

blah blah blah...(added cos the original message was ahem "Too Short")

Legion2213

03-Dec-2011, 04:37 PM

@ MZ, that would suck badly for Carl when he gets older, he'll have to settle for MILFs and Cougers. :D

Gemini

03-Dec-2011, 05:30 PM

The premeire and the finale were the real highlights of the season so far. The rest of the episodes were effective in building character but the plot was too static and soap opera for my tastes. Also it kept bothering me that they seemed so safe at the farm, I mean the horse wandering back onto the property after Daryl having lost it proved that the farm is wide open to the outside world. So why so safe? Also, again the menace could be intensified. The neighborhood scene should have been more tense and a closer call, it was a little too casual and "Hollywood" the way Andrea casually wasted a horde of zombies before they hit the road. The comic book version of that scene was much better. Also, why are the zombies growling like animals instead of moaning the way they should? Two raids into town and only one zombie encountered? And it seems they have started using cgi for head shots and zombie kills, that's no good.

In a nut shell the season redeemed its overly slow pace with some nice moments here and there, but the action needs to pick up and it needs to be made much more convincing that the zombies could have and did overwhelm the world.

MinionZombie

03-Dec-2011, 05:55 PM

@ MZ, that would suck badly for Carl when he gets older, he'll have to settle for MILFs and Cougers. :D

:lol::lol::lol:

He'll have to find someone new entirely. Maggie & Glenn are an item, Andrea has a line of suitors waiting in the wings, and Daryl & Carol have some sort of chaste, unspoken 'thing' going on so it seems (kind of sweet really).

Just watched the end of 2x07 yet again on Sky+ and it's a stonker alright. Chilling, truly.

However, is it just me, or does Sophia (Madeline Lintz) seem quite tall now - did she have a growth spurt, and could that have had something to do with her becoming 'Zophia'? It's a great plot point, a departure from the comics, but it also solves a potential production problem. Perhaps I'm wrong - it'd have to be compared to season 1.

To anyone worried about the next six episodes becoming another hunt - I wouldn't be so sure - theory below:
Looking at that 2x08 preview again, it seems as if Herschel is found in a bar by Rick - indeed I saw a picture which seemed to suggest that on AMC's website - and you see Herschel pull a hip flask out of a drawer ... so I'd reckon he turns back to booze and they'll find him in a bar in 2x08.

Legion2213

03-Dec-2011, 05:55 PM

Gemini, I was under the impression that all headshots were CGI anyway, maybe some just look a bit better than others.

The lack of zombies actually breaching the farm is a bit disappointing. Have you seen the "coming next episode" part at the end of episode 7?

it shows the farm being invaded...I think it's the walkers who were stired up on the housing estate personaly, which would make sense IMO

Edit: Nice spot on the T-shirt, MZ :thumbsup:

As for growth spurts, didn't they have to totally re-write Lost when that young lad sprouted to about 6ft in a few months? :D

MinionZombie

03-Dec-2011, 06:06 PM

Edit: Nice spot on the T-shirt, MZ :thumbsup:

As for growth spurts, didn't they have to totally re-write Lost when that young lad sprouted to about 6ft in a few months? :D

Actually I think I saw the picture wrong - I looked closer and it seemed to still be the same t-shirt design, it was just an odd angle and with the dirt it seemed to be a different design, so I think I misread that picture - hence why I removed it, but you saw it before I removed it, so now my dimwittedness has been revealed! :p

And aye - Walt in Lost was written out because the boy did indeed have a ma-hoo-sive growth spurt. Now - Chandler Riggs seems quite young-looking for his age, so that'll help the production, but you can't help but wonder what will happen? Will they have some sort of '12 months later' moment in season 3 to account for it? I don't think they've ever actually stated his age in the show - or at least I can't remember them doing so.

Saw The Talking Dead for this episode and it was a bit of an "awww" moment when Nicotero said that he'd heard on the grapevine that Lintz had said to her Mum that she didn't want to leave the show as she was enjoying it so much.

kidgloves

03-Dec-2011, 06:19 PM

but the action needs to pick up and it needs to be made much more convincing that the zombies could have and did overwhelm the world.

Its funny you should post that because I've just watched this again and the end scene with Carol running towards "Zophia" really struck me as a great example of how many many people would get killed should this happen. Her emotion completely overtook her and even though she has seen zombies killed in front of her and has pickaxed her abusing husbands corpse, she just wouldn't accept that her little girl was the undead.
It was also really interesting on The Talking dead when Nicotero talked about how director Michelle MacLaren shot a version of the ending with "Zophia" wearing very little makeup to give the viewer a character perspective on how they also couldn't accept that she had turned. People tend to leave things like this out, along with the political handwringing we see in Dawn, when thinking about the zompocalypse happening. Its not all just about the "threat".

I really feel that the page has turned with this episode. The look on Ricks face as he first acknowledged he would have to do it, then pressing the switch and turning into "cold" mode. Great bit of acting. Ive heard Lincoln talk a lot about his character in this and he really grasps the spiral down that people would go into in this world.

Legion2213

03-Dec-2011, 06:26 PM

The end scene sort of justified all points of view in way.

The practical folk realising that they are just mindless machines and need to be destroyed.

The people who directly lose loved ones still being unable to grasp the evidence of their own eyes becuase of the sheer loss.

As myself and others have said, that last few minutes of E7 has damaged eveybody who was there. This series is probably the grimmest zombie media I've seen, being a series we can see long term effects that simply can't be shown in movies.

Wyldwraith

03-Dec-2011, 08:21 PM

I agree the barn scene was emotionally damaging to all witnesses,
But necessary. Shane really did them a favor, by breaching the barn and turning it into a kill-or-be-eaten situation, Shane took a lot of the emotional quandary out of gunning the approaching zombies down. It's one thing (and a harder thing) to consider popping a rifle round into the head of a turned loved one from a completely safe vantage such as the barn's loft (especially when you believe them to be "secured" in said barn), and QUITE ANOTHER THING to gun down undead staggering at their best speed straight towards you. The first situation forces the leisure of the emotional ramifications on you, while the second is a matter of action/reaction.

Maggie nearly DIED because she (at least partially) bought into her father's delusion about the Walkers being sick people. Not because of where she was...she would have been in the pharmacy anyways whatever she thought about Walkers, but because being so suddenly/immediately confronted by a so-called "sick person" who has a hold of you and is trying to EAT YOU pushed her into a panic-mode Rick and Co. have moved beyond due to their experience.

Maggie, Herschel and the rest of their people needed to see what their lost loved ones undead bodies would do given the opportunity. Was the firing line of survivors just massacring the zombies with a barrage of gunfire brutally horrific? ABSOLUTELY. It highlighted the horrible reality of the world they all live in now, and it showed the "innocents" on the farm that the danger of Walkers wasn't something being trumped up by these violent outsiders. Herschel just collapsing to his knees, and Maggie clutching his shoulder with one hand while the other covered her mouth were both perfect exemplars of that deluded innocence being SHATTERED. A necessary step if Maggie is going to join up and move on with Rick and Co.

The point about people dying, or getting infected by the bite of a turned loved one they refuse to recognize has become a mortal threat until it's too late is well-taken. Mothers, especially close siblings (twins come to mind), grandmothers etc etc, are all the sorts you could anticipate falling prey to this "deadly delusion." That said, I can't see this delusion extending to a zombified former loved one you've had locked away for months and months. At SOME POINT the reality of the situation grows so blatantly obvious that 1 of 2 things happens. Either the survivor's mind snaps and they fall into a truly delusional, disconnected from reality state of mind...or the survivor comes to a quiet, deeply painful realization that becomes a turned corner for said survivor.

It's one thing to let what you want to be so override your perceptions when you're talking about a recently-undead individual who was infected and/or died of one or more wounds that aren't readily apparent...and quite another to continue seeing the same undead individual the same way after 2-3 months of putrefying in a sweltering Georgie summer. The stench alone would hammer the point home. Especially if you had multiple turned loved ones confined in one area, like Herschel's barn...or the apartment in Diary, or the various blocked-off rooms in the apartment building at the beginning of the original Dawn.

If a putrescent housecat decaying in the crawlspace under an office building can render the business all but uninhabitable due to the stench, and bodies bricked or mortared into walls have been discovered by new tenants due to the smell even through the various intervening layers, how much more obvious would the stench of decaying undead in the heat and a relatively open area be? Remembering that hot air rises (say, into the barn's loft) and with it said stench.

AcesandEights

03-Dec-2011, 10:49 PM

kidgloves

03-Dec-2011, 11:01 PM

Does anyone else remember someone referring to Day of the Dead and a specific sequence in season 2? I've just rewatched the 1st episode and the highway segment must be what they're talking about. Its more the sound design than anything else. Theres this gradual build up of moans as the herd approaches with some 80's keyboard sounds like the city waking up at the beginning of Day.

Andy

04-Dec-2011, 01:18 AM

Great episode and great mid season finale, i cant wait until February now.

Agree with alot of the comments here except i find myself defending Shane again, i really don't think he's the bad guy and i don't know exactly why alot of you seem to think he is? To me, Shane is the most down to earth person out of the entire group, when they left atlanta at the end of season 1..

i was quite pissed off that they had kept shane and not run into tyreese, who i guess would be shanes replacement in the group in the comics..

..but ive really come to like him as season 2 has progressed and im with him all the way now, like i said, he is the most realistic and down to earth character out of the entire group, also id really like to see dale get it. He just really comes across as an arrogant prick who has on several occassions endangered the group just to fulfill his own selfish ends. I hope they write him out seeing as nobody is safe and id be satisfied to see shane do it.

sandrock74

04-Dec-2011, 06:14 AM

Wyld, I couldn't agree more that the effects of the stench of decay is all too often way overlooked in zombie media. The psychological and physical reactions should be, in the right circumstances, debilitating.

Unfortunately, it's an area so neglected in the genre and already overlooked multiple times in this show (see previous discussion about highway scenes), that I don't see the show paying it more than occasional attention, probably only as the plot requires.

Yes, other than Peter's comment in Dawn about them having to clean up the bodies before the mall becomes rank, or the zombies being called "stenches" in Land, or occassional references to bad smells in the Resident Evil games, no real reference has been made to a zombies perma-decay smell. I've always believed that youd SMELL a horde of zombies long before you saw, or even heard them coming!

Movies/tv shows tend to ignore smell and comic books tend to ignore sound. Movie/tv example = zombies don't smell bad, comic book example = no one recognizes a masked character due to the sound of their voice. Its just a limitation that is quietly overlooked by each medium.

MinionZombie

04-Dec-2011, 10:38 AM

Regarding the smell of the walker barn ... I don't know - farms always stink of shit, so what'd be new? :D:sneaky::lol:

But still, they're not awfully near it, the barn is an enclosed space, and they're out in the open - plus most of the group are probably pretty ripe by now with all that running around day-in-day-out in the same clothes without washing (seemingly).

Regarding Sophia - or rather Madeline Lintz's height possibly being a production factor in making her 'Zophia' - here's some screenshots for comparison:

The first one is from 1x05, and the second two are from 2x01 - it seems that she's shot up like six inches. It must be a constant issue for child actors around that age, and quite the disappointment if you're working on a show you love working on.

krisvds

07-Dec-2011, 02:37 PM

On the Dale bashing
Come on guys, give the old man a break. He took away Andrea's choice to kill herself?
Perhaps, and this is an interesting example of TWD's character driven drama at it's best: ethical dilemma's. Is it 'wrong' to force someone to choose life when that person wants to commit suicide?
That's a tough question right there. Dale clearly cares for Andrea. he clearly uses emotional blackmail to force her out of that decision, true. It worked. Did the ends justify the means? Does Andrea suffer intolerably now that she is still alive? These last couple of episodes have shown the character getting her act together and embracing life (amongst other things). This is in a timespan of a couple of weeks at the most. Perhaps Dale was right getting her out of that building? She wasn't thinking straight at that moment. Had not given it enough thought? Could be that she ends up showing gratitude to the old man.
Dale is still trying to follow some moral code in this world gone to hell. His acts might not always be the smartest to some but at least he tries to be a 'good' guy, for better or worse.
Much like Rick in a way.

Thorn

07-Dec-2011, 02:47 PM

babomb

07-Dec-2011, 11:43 PM

Suicide intervention is a real thing, I am not a fan of letting people I care about give up. It is the easy way out, it is for quitters and hate me for it but I will get i nthe way of it at every turn. So No I do not believe it is wrong to fight for the life of a friend who is making a decision that might not be the best for them. That's basically assuming that you know better than they do, and denying that person freewill. Reasoning with them and removing the tools with which they'd terminate their life is 1 thing. But it sounds like you're saying that you would use any means necessary to prevent them from making their own choice. You might justify it by saying that you're saving their life but what you might be doing is forcing them to suffer needlessly and denying them the ability to do anything about it.
I don't support enforcing your own moral code on others. I'm a believer in freewill. People make choices and deal with them. If I came across someone trying to end their life I'd definitely try to make a case against it using logic and reason. But I wouldn't attempt to make them responsible for my death in an effort to prevent them from ending their life, and I sure wouldn't imprison them to prevent it. That's denying them the right to exercise their own freewill. Which is against MY moral code. That to me is forcing others to adhere to an arbitrary sense of morality. As if to say that your own sense of morality trumps theirs. Which is not possible IMO, and definitely not justifiable. That doesn't mean that if a loved one were about to put a gun in their mouth I wouldn't try to talk them out of it or take the gun away. It means that I wouldn't put my own mouth on the gun with theirs or handcuff them to the toilet to prevent it.
Which is why I have a problem with what Dale did with Andrea at the CDC to start with. But at the same time, Dale choosing to stay would've been him exercising his own freewill. And wouldn't have been Andreas responsibility. She wasn't forcing him to stay or attempting to influence him to stay. If it was me in Andreas place and I had made up my mind to die, Dale's efforts would've been in vain.
I decide what is within my own moral code. And as long as I afford others that same right to decide then my conscience is clear.

Look at it this way...

Killing herself was not her choice either she did not think long and hard and say 'I choose death" that whole situation was thrust upon her, and she went with it, her grief could have contributed, and she was placed in a situation where other were doing it so giving up was easy for her. After the fact she seems like she is fighting for life pretty hard.
I guess that's what I don't get right there. Not directing it at you specifically, alot of people think the same way(many in my own family), and it's exactly how Dale thinks. That a person is not fit to make their own choice because the choice they made is one that you're opposed to personally. It really seemed like she thought about it well, she wasn't hysterical or otherwise acting in an incoherent manner.
But Dale had an emotional response to her choice, and as a result justified his choice to deny her the right to choose by saying that she must not be thinking clearly. But IMO it was Dales thought process that was clouded by his feelings for Andrea. His intentions were good, but good intentions don't trump everything else.
You notice too that Dale didn't exactly force Jackie to make the right decision on that one. So what's the difference between Andrea and Jackie? Dale doesn't have a crush on Jackie, he doesn't care enough about her to make her choose life. He watches Andrea like a hawk, and tries to influence everything she does. That's not his place to do that. And he doesn't do these things only in times of extreme stress and desperation. He plots this shit out and puts alot of thought into how he can influence people. He didn't allow Andrea to have her weapon back until he found out that the decision to deny her that almost resulted in the very thing he was trying so desperately to prevent. He doesn't exert this same influence over anyone else in the group specifically. Dale's only contribution to the group is his RV. Other than that he's a hinderance and a liability. He's an annoying ninny that's always up in other peoples business. He needs to learn his place and stay in it.

About suicide, I don't condone or support suicide obviously. But if someone had a terminal illness and wanted to end it, I'd support their right to make that decision for themselves. And a case could be made that living in a world like they do in the show is very similar to that.

Thorn

08-Dec-2011, 01:26 AM

That's basically assuming that you know better than they do, and denying that person freewill. Reasoning with them and removing the tools with which they'd terminate their life is 1 thing. But it sounds like you're saying that you would use any means necessary to prevent them from making their own choice. You might justify it by saying that you're saving their life but what you might be doing is forcing them to suffer needlessly and denying them the ability to do anything about it.
I don't support enforcing your own moral code on others. I'm a believer in freewill. People make choices and deal with them. If I came across someone trying to end their life I'd definitely try to make a case against it using logic and reason. But I wouldn't attempt to make them responsible for my death in an effort to prevent them from ending their life, and I sure wouldn't imprison them to prevent it. That's denying them the right to exercise their own freewill. Which is against MY moral code. That to me is forcing others to adhere to an arbitrary sense of morality. As if to say that your own sense of morality trumps theirs. Which is not possible IMO, and definitely not justifiable. That doesn't mean that if a loved one were about to put a gun in their mouth I wouldn't try to talk them out of it or take the gun away. It means that I wouldn't put my own mouth on the gun with theirs or handcuff them to the toilet to prevent it.
Which is why I have a problem with what Dale did with Andrea at the CDC to start with. But at the same time, Dale choosing to stay would've been him exercising his own freewill. And wouldn't have been Andreas responsibility. She wasn't forcing him to stay or attempting to influence him to stay. If it was me in Andreas place and I had made up my mind to die, Dale's efforts would've been in vain.
I decide what is within my own moral code. And as long as I afford others that same right to decide then my conscience is clear.

I guess that's what I don't get right there. Not directing it at you specifically, alot of people think the same way(many in my own family), and it's exactly how Dale thinks. That a person is not fit to make their own choice because the choice they made is one that you're opposed to personally. It really seemed like she thought about it well, she wasn't hysterical or otherwise acting in an incoherent manner.
But Dale had an emotional response to her choice, and as a result justified his choice to deny her the right to choose by saying that she must not be thinking clearly. But IMO it was Dales thought process that was clouded by his feelings for Andrea. His intentions were good, but good intentions don't trump everything else.
You notice too that Dale didn't exactly force Jackie to make the right decision on that one. So what's the difference between Andrea and Jackie? Dale doesn't have a crush on Jackie, he doesn't care enough about her to make her choose life. He watches Andrea like a hawk, and tries to influence everything she does. That's not his place to do that. And he doesn't do these things only in times of extreme stress and desperation. He plots this shit out and puts alot of thought into how he can influence people. He didn't allow Andrea to have her weapon back until he found out that the decision to deny her that almost resulted in the very thing he was trying so desperately to prevent. He doesn't exert this same influence over anyone else in the group specifically. Dale's only contribution to the group is his RV. Other than that he's a hinderance and a liability. He's an annoying ninny that's always up in other peoples business. He needs to learn his place and stay in it.

About suicide, I don't condone or support suicide obviously. But if someone had a terminal illness and wanted to end it, I'd support their right to make that decision for themselves. And a case could be made that living in a world like they do in the show is very similar to that.

No understandable, allow me to clarify.

In real life zombie crap aside if my friend is trying to kill themselves because they are depressed, their girl left them, they lost their job, or because they are being emo... I am going to intervene and if I didn't I couldn't live with myself. DO I know better than them? No. In that moment though I might be thinking more clearly, and more rationally than they are. This from someone mind you who wrestles with clinical depression every day of his life.

If that same person is dying of cancer, and they can't deal with the pain, and they have thought it out long and hard and it is what they want I would not get in the way... as much. I would still try to talk them out of it, would encourage them to fight but if they told me that it was what they wanted I would back off. Why suffer? Why let them suffer?

In Andrea's case, and maybe I did not explain this well... her sister just died and that was all she had really, all she clung to of her old life. She felt powerless, without purpose, and hopeless. Loss does that to you. Then the countdown started, and it was "we are all going to die it is easier this way" and she bought in as did others. She did not think about it, the computer made the decision for her, and she was just not going to leave, take the easy way. She had others encouraging her to do so as well not by their words, but by their willingness to end it through lack of action. See she did not have to opt in, surviving meant taking action and fighting for her life. That mad rush again to try and live, but she had been fighting for so long and it was just easier to sit there and let the count down happen. It made it seem more acceptable, easier.

She did not have time to think it through fully, to me it seemed as if it was more accepting this as an option, she was in pain and wanted it to end. The loss of her sister was too fresh in her mind, they had been through too much. At that point I do not think Andrea as a person was at her full mental capacity to make decisions for herself. Again I don't know better than anyone but in that case I would think "She is making the wrong choice based on the wrong set of criteria" and I would fight for her life. If in 2 months she still wanted to end it, who am I to stop her. You know what though? A couple weeks later and as I said she is still here and could have ended it a dozen ways and now she has a purpose, and a focus, and with it a renewed will to live. She would not have found that if not for friends intervening on her behalf.

krisvds

08-Dec-2011, 07:11 AM

I guess that's what I don't get right there. Not directing it at you specifically, alot of people think the same way(many in my own family), and it's exactly how Dale thinks. That a person is not fit to make their own choice because the choice they made is one that you're opposed to personally. It really seemed like she thought about it well, she wasn't hysterical or otherwise acting in an incoherent manner.
But Dale had an emotional response to her choice, and as a result justified his choice to deny her the right to choose by saying that she must not be thinking clearly. But IMO it was Dales thought process that was clouded by his feelings for Andrea. His intentions were good, but good intentions don't trump everything else.
You notice too that Dale didn't exactly force Jackie to make the right decision on that one. So what's the difference between Andrea and Jackie? Dale doesn't have a crush on Jackie, he doesn't care enough about her to make her choose life. He watches Andrea like a hawk, and tries to influence everything she does. That's not his place to do that. And he doesn't do these things only in times of extreme stress and desperation. He plots this shit out and puts alot of thought into how he can influence people. He didn't allow Andrea to have her weapon back until he found out that the decision to deny her that almost resulted in the very thing he was trying so desperately to prevent. He doesn't exert this same influence over anyone else in the group specifically. Dale's only contribution to the group is his RV. Other than that he's a hinderance and a liability. He's an annoying ninny that's always up in other peoples business. He needs to learn his place and stay in it.

About suicide, I don't condone or support suicide obviously. But if someone had a terminal illness and wanted to end it, I'd support their right to make that decision for themselves. And a case could be made that living in a world like they do in the show is very similar to that.

On Dale; His only contribution is the RV? Come on, he sits watch on top of that thing like a real pro! He can be a bit of an annoying father figure but I put a lot of that down to the rather flat characterisation of the figure. It's one of the main problems of the series. As enjoyable as it is, the writing could be better. If you're going to pull the character driven drama card they are going to have to write better dialogue and make sure the characters are fleshed out more. Most of these characters at the moment don't have much depth to them. Andrea suffers from this as well; the transition from depressed and suicidal to gung ho sharpshooter in the span of a couple weeks is in itself plausible but only if the writing lets you suspend your disbelief.

On suicide: there is a difference between euthanasia and suicide. A patient suffering from a terminal disease who can't stand the pain no longer and decides he or she does not wish to prolong this situation is a whole different story to Andrea's dilemma.
Euthanasia is a decision only a patient can make. No one else. You have to respect that. Whose life is it anyway?

Both have to do with free will. (If such a thing exist. And I'm not talking about religious 'fate' here but genetic predetermination. We are all programmed by our genes. But perhaps dragging the whole 'nature - nurture' debate into this is a bit too much ...)
However if a loved one recognises your suffering and knows you well enough to see that there might be chance that there is a way out, well, screw your free will at that time. If you are not thinking straight, are not calm, stable and rational about it I see no wrong in a loved one trying to stop you. It has little to do with 'free will' if your judgement is that clouded that you can no longer see there might be solutions to your 'problems' other than a terminal one. Now does this apply to the Dale - Andrea situation? Perhaps not entirely; Dale didn't know the girl that well. But if you see the way she has overcome her troubles, dealt with her loss, and so on... Well, the old geezer was probably right in 'saving' her, be it for totally selfish reasons. she might end up thanking him for it before long.