Good, but overrated

[MoonSylver]

I think a lot of people are confusing some things. There's respect and then there's brown nosing. I'll always respect Romero for what he's done in the past, but that's not to say I have to swallow my tongue when it comes to his new efforts. I'm not saying that. I HOPE no one else is either. Extremism is bad, to EITHER end of the spectrum. It's like your favorite musician or band. If they've had three GREAT albums and three poor albums, are you going to lie to their face and say you loved the latest three? Or just keep your mouth shut about them? No artist should expect his/her fans to lie or keep their mouths shut. No, but they should be able to critique the albums in an intelligent thoughtful manor, if they have any respect for the band themselves. Just making a so-called "review" that really just a bunch of ranty, spewing, bilious hate mail, like... "(Insert bands name here) last three albums were so bad they raped my mom, killed by wife, maimed my children, kicked my dog, invaded Poland, blah, blah!!!!111one!one!" ...doesn't seem like something one would post about someone they respect or admire. Now, if one wants to post like that, hey, it's a free country, knock yerself out. But I find it hard to take them seriously. And I'll hope they'll forgive me if I do take offense, because frankly, I find it offensive. I'll respect anyones opinion more if they can articulate it in an intelligent manor than just spew bilge. That being said, I don't agree with the "throne" thing being thrown around. Same here. I've made my feelings known already about comparisons. I don't think they're helpful at all in this case & feel like really all they're causing is divisiveness where there should be none. At the same time....Romero has failed to turn in anything good in recent years(imo). I would love nothing more than to see him make another great movie, but does that mean I should pretend to like his latest efforts in that hope? If he's an artist, he should be able to take the criticism into consideration. Or not, for that matter. But the point is that there is no reason we should lie and further fuel the fire of the mediocre albums. See above. Not singling you out presonally here Bass, not singling ANYONE out personally, just my genreal thoughts on a style of posting that I've seen on ocasions that I find distaseful. Sometimes it's a fine line. I know I've been ranty in the past on certain things. Usually it's to elicit a humerous response. (Like above, that's not TOO far from the lengths I might go to try & get a laugh.) But when the person is SERIOUS? That doesn't indicate respect of any kind to me. I know if & when I DO post in those kinds of terms it's generally for something I reserve a genuine hatred & have no respect for AT ALL. Now if that's what these folks are trying to express, hey that's your opinion too, but now we've genuinely come to a parting of ways. Because even though I may have been disapointed in "Survival", or found verying degrees of flaws in "Diary" or "Land", I've got nothing but respect for ol' George himself & his past accomplishments. & like Leo said, I'll be interested to see what he does next. If that makes me a brown noser, so be it &... Which actually brings me to another thing, maybe the issue is that folks that indulge in this kind of "hate mail" sometimes arn't the most articulate. Maybe they're having a hard time expressing their feelings for the FILMS vs their feelings for the FILMMAKER. Or maybe they can't tell the difference. Or maybe they're so overcome in their zeal to spread their ranty rant ranting goodness that they just can't pound out those colorful metaphors quick enough. I dunno. Besides, I figure we can have reasonable discourse with each other, & at the end of the day agree to disagree, as long as we remain civil with each other. Civility must be rewarded. What's that Doc? Reward is the key! They must be tricked into being 'good little girls and boys' the way WE were tricked into it, on promise of some reward... Well, yeah, it's true we don't really REWARD civility around here per se.... If civility isn't rewarded then there's no use for it. There's...just no use for it at all! I don't know that I agree...civility is its own reward IMO... Bastard! Be civilized! BE CIVIL-IIIIIZED!!! Ah, see?!? Even Dr. logan feels the need to rant occasionally I guess.

[MikePizzoff]

Reading through all of these new threads... Am I the only one getting ticked off by people speaking about TWD as if it's simply an original television show and not based off a running comic book?

[kidgloves]

Reading through all of these new threads... Am I the only one getting ticked off by people speaking about TWD as if it's simply an original television show and not based off a running comic book? Its a fine line though. The riding into Atlanta on a horse was a big image as part of the comic but if you cut that out and put him on a bike or in a truck it ceases to be the comic. There would be uproar so you have to let some things slide.

[bassman]

If that makes me a brown noser, so be it &... I wasn't calling you or anyone else here a brown noser. I just keep seeing the word "respect" thrown around as if people are straight hating on Romero and everything he's ever done. Nobody has gone to that extreme. It's not disrespect to say there are some things you haven't enjoyed in Movie A or Movie B. And that's all that's really been said, yet some people are claiming its a lack of respect. That's whats strange to me. I've seen nothing really disrespectful to Romero yet some people seem to think others want to burn him at the stake and piss on his ashes....

[Thorn]

Really good points, Moon. I think a lot of what we see here is the "GAR camp" versus the "WD" camp. People who love GAR are passionate, and I count myself as one of that group. We have lived and died emotionally with his films. They are a major part of our lives. Look at us. I have been chatting on this site and in these forums since like 98 or so? I am guessing, I forget when I actually found a community of people as obsessed with zombies as me. I learned about GAR, and the other directors and writers out there who brought zombie stories to life. There is a certain amount of "GAR is the man" posturing and people who are viewing this as a threat to him or an attack on him. There are also those in a hurry to dethrone him and delight in his "perceived slippage" Some have gone so far as to make it seem that way, that those who like TWD are attacking GAR, or trying to crown a new king of zombies. So people fracture into two camps, and we debate and rage and get our fan boy knickers in a knot. I am going to go out on a limb here and say it is OKAY to like both offerings, and the creators of the Walking Dead pay homage to GAR they respect him, cite him as an influence and inspiration. The creators are showing GAR the respect he has earned, we should too. That said, it is OKAY to not like his latest offerings. It is okay to like one better than the other EVEN IF you do not *gasp* pick GAR. What you should not do is come here and start posts designed to create a divide and fan the flames. We need to respect both creators, and we need to respect each other as well. We all have opinions, and I say again it should not be about who is better. We should just appreciate the fact that our beloved zombies are being given the chance to be featured in a major tv series with a large budget. It is more zombies, and more zombies done right. Could we look at Rick's choices and go "God that is so dumb" sure you can, you could do that in any horror film. "Don't go upstairs" "Going off in the woods for a quickie is a one way trip to hatchet lane" "DON'T HIDE UNDER THE BED" If these characters did the smart thing, the show would be boring. You need to create drama and tension, you need to move the story along. 10 episodes of 8 people locked in a fortified bunker where no one dies, no one gets in, and they have plenty of food and water isn't a zombie story even if zombies are outside. It is the real world with some background moaning and even less drama. Who the hell wants to watch that?

[shootemindehead]

I love, love, love the Day score! Another one here. I think it really works well.

[Rancid Carcass]

I think a lot of what we see here is the "GAR camp" versus the "WD" camp. "Where does it say we should keep those dumbfucks next door to where we sleep? Where does it say we should do any one thing but shoot the mothers in the head?!"

[kev]

I watched it, and thought it was better then I expected it to be and will be making sure to watch the rest of it.

[darth los]

Another one here. I think it really works well. Day score. A very "tropical score". And about the GAr thing if we're gonna call people out then name names and examples. This whole vast anti gar conspiracy is a bit much. I've been here a while myself and can't think of a single person who enjoys "ripping him down". Now I do know of those who are much more lenient when it comes to his shortcomings. They will say things like, " well atleast he's still making films or atleast it's better than most of the stuff out there. Now that's all true but it's their opinion. I don't see it as brown nosing at all. Conversely, you have those who are more harsh in their criticisms because let's face it, the last 3 films wer sub par. I haven't come across virtually anything said that was unfounded. And again it's their opinion. I don't see it as bashing at all. Review my posts for example. I have criticized GAr many a time but almost never on the original triloggy. Also, look at the recent TWD threads I've posted in. There's plenty of criticism of the pilot from me there as well. So, and I'll speak for myself here, it's not an anti anything. It's a this doesn't make a whole lot of sense thing. No matter who produces it.

[Thorn]

"Where does it say we should keep those dumbfucks next door to where we sleep? Where does it say we should do any one thing but shoot the mothers in the head?!" Ahh yes, and art imitates life once again... much as the undead imitate the living. *nods sagely*

[MoonSylver]

I think a lot of what we see here is the "GAR camp" versus the "WD" Yeah, & like I've been saying, it doesn't HAVE to be that way. And I hate to see it happening. Some have gone so far as to make it seem that way, that those who like TWD are attacking GAR, or trying to crown a new king of zombies.? Like I said, extremisim either way, not good. I am going to go out on a limb here and say it is OKAY to like both offerings, and the creators of the Walking Dead pay homage to GAR they respect him, cite him as an influence and inspiration. The creators are showing GAR the respect he has earned, we should too. That said, it is OKAY to not like his latest offerings. It is okay to like one better than the other EVEN IF you do not *gasp* pick GAR. What you should not do is come here and start posts designed to create a divide and fan the flames. We need to respect both creators, and we need to respect each other as well. We all have opinions, and I say again it should not be about who is better. We should just appreciate the fact that our beloved zombies are being given the chance to be featured in a major tv series with a large budget. It is more zombies, and more zombies done right. Agreed on all the above. Could we look at Rick's choices and go "God that is so dumb" sure you can, you could do that in any horror film. "Don't go upstairs" "Going off in the woods for a quickie is a one way trip to hatchet lane" "DON'T HIDE UNDER THE BED" If these characters did the smart thing, the show would be boring. You need to create drama and tension, you need to move the story along. 10 episodes of 8 people locked in a fortified bunker where no one dies, no one gets in, and they have plenty of food and water isn't a zombie story even if zombies are outside. It is the real world with some background moaning and even less drama. Who the hell wants to watch that? Agreed. And about the GAr thing if we're gonna call people out then name names and examples. Yeah, because that always ends well... This whole vast anti gar conspiracy is a bit much." Who said there was one? I've been here a while myself and can't think of a single person who enjoys "ripping him down".: Let's just say then that there have been folks in the past who have been "gleefully passionate" about seeing how "colorfully" they can "review" some of this films. Many of these "colorful" "reviews" have some "less than complimentary" things to say about GAR, Fair enough? For me personally, I said what I felt like I had to say. That's it. That's all I have to say on the subject. Anything more & I have to call this guy :

[Wyldwraith]

Here's the thing for me, Survival is LITERALLY among the 3 worst movies I have EVER SEEN, of ANY SORT. Why? I'll go point by point. Characterization: Consists of two-dimensional, inconsistent-in-stated-motivation(s) caricatures. Bad accents and even worse depictions of personality conflicts amongst the characters do not a watchable film make. Plot: Again, the inconsistency and meandering of the supposed plot is nonsensical, irritating and amateurish, AT BEST. Example: The O'Flynn "Want to put the zombies down" ideology Versus The Muldoon "Want to keep the zombies chained up and with us"...is supposedly the basis of conflict. Yet just as soon as the O'Flynn's are left without a leader, we see Muldoon putting bullets in the heads of any zombies that even mildly annoy him. Muldoon's behavior, the INCREDIBLY MELODRAMATIC whining of O'Flynn's daughter, and the ridiculous Offense-to-all-that-is-Irish O'Flynn character makes this mash-mash into unwatchable garbage. Pacing: The plot-speed is as jerky and inconsistent as the gait of a zombie lurching downhill. SFX: Campy beyond belief, and so ridiculously bad that the viewer is aghast that someone who's been making zombie films for nearly 50 years signed off on these craptastic effects. Zombie Kills/Zombie Behavior: Romero reduces the zombies in Survival to tools to create attempts at cheap "Jump scares." Every time a character doesn't seem to be paying attention, a zombie approaches silently from the perfect angle to remain unseen by its intended target until the last, supposedly/attemptedly dramatic moment. Then, the characters off the zombie in increasingly cheesy ways. C'mon, shooting the zombie with a flare, and then lighting a cigarette off its flaming head? Juvenile. Stabbing zombie in head with a barbecue fork with old rotten hot-dog still attached...::sighs:: There is NOTHING REDEEMING about Survival of the Dead, but THAT ISN'T NEARLY THE WORST OF IT. No, the true horror is that SOMEHOW Romero believes that this unrelentingly shitty production, along with the nearly-as-bad Diary Are (direct quote here) "My best two Dead films to date." You can argue about what you think of that, but you can't make the words go away. Romero has said, and more than once, that he wholeheartedly believes that Diary & Survival are his best Dead-related work to date. What can you call that, if not delusional? How can words like these FROM ROMERO *NOT* kill your respect for the man as he is today and his current prospects of making anything remotely watchable? How?

[Mike70]

Eh...there are some folks who do blur the line mightily...the verbiage they employ, or the amount of hysteria, histrionics & hyperbole (say THAT five times fast! ) that they use in their posts I usually find pretty offensive to be honest, & if it were ME they were taking about I would damn sure take offense. It comes across as little more than a personal attack IMO, wrapped in a "review"...but hey, it's "da interwebz". What else should I expect? yeah, point taken but that was not what i was speaking of. i was talking about the criticism leveled at dawn. the whole "romero needs to retire" thing is a bit much. my comments were about the folks who believe that some of romero's earlier movies haven't aged well. i will be damned, however, if we come to a point on this board where people cannot openly voice critical opinions on things we are all fans of, because a few folks think they know everything and that their opinions count more than others.

[darth los]

Who said there was one? Leo, DB. Here's the thing for me, Survival is LITERALLY among the 3 worst movies I have EVER SEEN, of ANY SORT. Why? I'll go point by point. Characterization: Consists of two-dimensional, inconsistent-in-stated-motivation(s) caricatures. Bad accents and even worse depictions of personality conflicts amongst the characters do not a watchable film make. Plot: Again, the inconsistency and meandering of the supposed plot is nonsensical, irritating and amateurish, AT BEST. Example: The O'Flynn "Want to put the zombies down" ideology Versus The Muldoon "Want to keep the zombies chained up and with us"...is supposedly the basis of conflict. Yet just as soon as the O'Flynn's are left without a leader, we see Muldoon putting bullets in the heads of any zombies that even mildly annoy him. Muldoon's behavior, the INCREDIBLY MELODRAMATIC whining of O'Flynn's daughter, and the ridiculous Offense-to-all-that-is-Irish O'Flynn character makes this mash-mash into unwatchable garbage. Pacing: The plot-speed is as jerky and inconsistent as the gait of a zombie lurching downhill. SFX: Campy beyond belief, and so ridiculously bad that the viewer is aghast that someone who's been making zombie films for nearly 50 years signed off on these craptastic effects. Zombie Kills/Zombie Behavior: Romero reduces the zombies in Survival to tools to create attempts at cheap "Jump scares." Every time a character doesn't seem to be paying attention, a zombie approaches silently from the perfect angle to remain unseen by its intended target until the last, supposedly/attemptedly dramatic moment. Then, the characters off the zombie in increasingly cheesy ways. C'mon, shooting the zombie with a flare, and then lighting a cigarette off its flaming head? Juvenile. Stabbing zombie in head with a barbecue fork with old rotten hot-dog still attached...::sighs:: There is NOTHING REDEEMING about Survival of the Dead, but THAT ISN'T NEARLY THE WORST OF IT. No, the true horror is that SOMEHOW Romero believes that this unrelentingly shitty production, along with the nearly-as-bad Diary Are (direct quote here) "My best two Dead films to date." You can argue about what you think of that, but you can't make the words go away. Romero has said, and more than once, that he wholeheartedly believes that Diary & Survival are his best Dead-related work to date. What can you call that, if not delusional? How can words like these FROM ROMERO *NOT* kill your respect for the man as he is today and his current prospects of making anything remotely watchable? How? Blasphemy I say! How dare you point out the obvious!?! Bow down before GAr. Kneel before ZOD! See, now you're a GAr basher. I agree with virtually everything you said there so I guess that makes me one too. yeah, point taken but that was not what i was speaking of. i was talking about the criticism leveled at dawn. the whole "romero needs to retire" thing is a bit much. my comments were about the folks who believe that some of romero's earlier movies haven't aged well. i will be damned, however, if we come to a point on this board where people cannot openly voice critical opinions on things we are all fans of, because a few folks think they know everything and that their opinions count more than others. Dawn is like one of the 5 all time films that I can watch ad nauseum ad not get tired of it. Where do i send that money order for the BAn fund again?

[MoonSylver]

i will be damned, however, if we come to a point on this board where people cannot openly voice critical opinions on things we are all fans of, because a few folks think they know everything and that their opinions count more than others. And that's fair enough. Maybe it's justa sore point with me, but since the whole thing came up, I've aired my views on it. It's already out there now. No need for me to keep reiterating. Here's the point where I'm gonna bow out, as I don't see the situation improving. Quite the contrary... "Forget it Jake. It's Chinatown."