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Thread: TWD 5x16 "Conquer" (Season 5 Finale) episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

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    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
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    TWD 5x16 "Conquer" (Season 5 Finale) episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

    Please keep all talk of episode 5x16 "Conquer" specifically inside this thread.

    If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

    Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

    Enjoy!


    Episode 5.16: Conquer - Daryl finds trouble while on a run; Rick and the group feel like outsiders in Alexandria, where trouble approaches the gates.
    Directed by: Greg Nicotero
    Written by: Scott M. Gimple


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    Walking Dead Moon Knight's Avatar
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    It all comes down to this.

    “‘I give you a mausoleum of all hope and desire which will fit your individual needs, no better than it did mine and my father before me. I give it to you not that you may remember time, but that you may forget it. For a moment, now and then, and not spend all of your breath trying to conquer it.’”

    -Dale 1x4 "Vatos"
    Last edited by Moon Knight; 28-Mar-2015 at 08:36 PM. Reason: Words
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

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    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Can't believe we're already at the end of the series
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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    Walking Dead Moon Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Can't believe we're already at the end of the series
    Season not series! Don't scare me, Neil!
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

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    Dead facestabber's Avatar
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    I couldn't help it. I read complete storyline narrative. I feel so dirty.

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    Twitching
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    Enjoyed it,
    But to call a shovel a shovel (Must be PC) that plotline was contrived to hell and gone. Don't get me wrong, it was WELL contrived, but c'mon. Gabriel couldn't have picked a better day, a better MOMENT to go all nihlist leave-the-gate-open if he and Rick had gotten together and hammered out a conspiracy to make Rick look good.

    Though, I'm absolutely compelled to say this as well: What lucky star was Rick born under? Pete chooses the absolutely gut-check make-or-break moment to blunder in and sort of semi-accidentally slash open Tobin's throat, thereby making Deanna an instant convert to the Wyldwraith School of Savage Atavistic Justice (tm). Between Gabriel and Pete, Rick doesn't need allies. His enemies spend all their time polishing his halo and redeeming his tactical errors.

    Still and all, contrived though it was, the ending went FAR better than I had reason to hope. I maintain and stand by my earlier position however, since one can't rely on the catastrophic blunders of one's enemies to keep you and yours safe.

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    Just been bitten Staredge's Avatar
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    Yeah, but.......MORGAN!!!!!!!!! lol


    Curious if Sasha will do the hug-the-walker thing. Was kind of hoping Fr. Gabriel would.

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    Walking Dead Moon Knight's Avatar
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    Morgan is incredible.

    Very satisfied with this episode. One of our heroes didn't die!

    RIP Reg. He seemed like a really nice guy.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

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    I don't know if Carol could get any cooler. I love the transformation. I love the character.

    Daryl is a noble human being. Honor. Integrity. He has it all. Fan favorite aside I liked Reedus performance. One last smoke before he potentially sacrifices himself. Reminded me of Merle.

    Everyone catch the nod to Savini/Romero? Nice homage
    Morgan!!! Finally. Nice to see he seems cleared.
    Eugene has grown on me. Great exchange with Abe.

    Now just wait 6 damn months.

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    Twitching
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    Come to think about it, we didn't see Big Daddy, the butcher or Cheerleader this season.

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    Walking Dead Moon Knight's Avatar
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    Glad they didn't kill Carol. Not even Rick frightened Pete as much as Carol did. I notice the Dawn of the Dead reference right away!
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

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    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
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    *PHEW!*

    I had so much fan tension going into this episode, and I'm relieved - I guess after having had a run of major deaths it was nice to have a finale where it didn't have to go down that route. Sure, people died, but I was fine with their offing ... it was getting pretty sketchy there for Glenn though, crikey! I suppose Gimple and co would know that us fans would be expecting some sort of "OMFG!" death, so allowed us to be teased, but went against our expectations - I'm glad they're able to duck and weave with audience expectations.

    MORGAN!!!!! Damn am I glad my theory from last week didn't come true! When I turned up to save Daryl and Aaron I was so pleased to see him in 'present time' - and I loved that little bit between Morgan and Daryl and the map with "Rick Grimes" written on it. So glad to have Morgan on board now - and the dude's kicking ass ... now it was interesting that when he honked the horn (after leaving the two guys tied up in the back seat), Lennie James confirmed that Morgan was doing it to make sure there weren't walkers in the vicinity, not the opposite, so it's that whole 'precious life' thing.

    Good to see some resolution begin to form regarding Sasha and Gabriel (that big, gate-opening dope!) ... and while that whole element did make for a very tidily written plot, it did achieve what needed to happen - to show the Alexandrians that they need to buck up their ideas quick.

    Lots of restraint on Glenn's part - what would you have done in that same position and why? I would want to shoot the bastard, but I can see the value in self-restraint, particularly with things being sketchy between Team Rick and the Alexandrians at that point. Indeed there was an interesting theme of forgiveness in the episode - contrasted heavily by Rick enacting Deanna's grief-stricken order ... I'd imagine Rick's permanently cock-blocked himself with Jessie now.

    The Wolves are coming ... oooooooh ... and it seems Aaron dropped his bag inside the compound (with pictures of Alexandria inside!) ... well I can't imagine that's going to be a helpful mistake!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Still and all, contrived though it was, the ending went FAR better than I had reason to hope. I maintain and stand by my earlier position however, since one can't rely on the catastrophic blunders of one's enemies to keep you and yours safe.
    BTW it was Reg who Pete accidentally slashed with Michonne's sword (Tobin's the construction crew guy who said Abraham should take over his job). That was another moment straight out of the comics, albeit slightly tweaked.

    And I stick by my position too. If we HPOTD'ers ever end up in the zombie apocalypse together, I'll be keeping a close eye on you, Wyld!

    Quote Originally Posted by facestabber View Post
    I don't know if Carol could get any cooler. I love the transformation. I love the character.

    Daryl is a noble human being. Honor. Integrity. He has it all. Fan favorite aside I liked Reedus performance. One last smoke before he potentially sacrifices himself. Reminded me of Merle.

    Everyone catch the nod to Savini/Romero? Nice homage
    Morgan!!! Finally. Nice to see he seems cleared.
    Eugene has grown on me. Great exchange with Abe.

    Now just wait 6 damn months.
    Loved the machete zombie reference to Dawn, but walker kill of the week (for me) goes to Rick shoving his gun up through the walker's gooey throat and blowing its brains out from the inside!

    "Integrity" is a good way of describing Daryl ... that car scene got a little hairy for a minute there.

    Also loved it when Carol called Rick "sunshine".

    TWD 5x16 Memes:
    http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2015/...dead-5x16.html
     











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    Dead facestabber's Avatar
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    Obviously the dynamic between Rick and Morgan will have everyone's attention. Morgan showed up at the exact wrong moment. Clearly Morgan's, life is precious, is his driving force. But Morgan is still carrying an M4. So he has to still have the ability to use deadly force right? I love Morgan. Glad he's on board but allowing two men to live after they tried to kill him is just plain dumb. I expect Wylde to jump on that and rightfully so.

    And what the hell. It sure seemed the "red" theme would be tied together to make sense. Did I just miss it or they waiting for season 6?

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    Twitching
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    @Minion:
    For the record, the trait most commonly used as a descriptive of me by those who are close friends and family are words like Loyal, Devoted, Protective (sometime Over-Protective). The way I grew up taught me life is Us Vs Them, and taking too long to decide who's "Us" and who's "Them" gets people hurt, the wrong people. Made that mistake twice, not going for the hat trick. And that's in the real civilized world. So my biases are out in the open.

    Concerning Morgan: His "Life is Precious" position is unworkable in a post-apocalyptic world. The "Wolf" with the unloaded gun told him as much IN DETAIL. Ie: "Nope, taking everything you have of any value isn't enough. I insist on taking your life too." Because of that evil little bit of conversation I consider Morgan as factually guilty of the murder of the man in the red hoodie (And every other person those 2 "Wolves" kill from this point onward) as if he'd joined up with them and committed the murders with his own hands. Very rarely does the villain tell you face-to-face, in expressive detail and citing pseudo-historical precedent as justification for his unrepentant, pure unadulterated EVIL. Morgan had not just EVERY, but ALL POSSIBLE REASONS to know that those two would if allowed to live go right on killing.

    It's like Rick said to Gareth when Gareth was pleading for mercy, saying "We can just leave, and we'll never cross your paths again." And Rick replied "But you'll cross someone's path, won't you? You'd do this to ANYONE!" *MOST* of the time in practice sins of omission are less evil than sins of commission. Failing to help someone you come across severely injured and bleeding in a ditch is less evil than being the person who savagely beat and stabbed the victim before rolling them into said ditch.

    In this case however, Morgan's complete factual understanding of the fundamental nature of the "Wolves", coupled with his complete control over their fates adds up to Morgan being JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for every evil act of that pair of Wolves from now on. Someone once said "All that is necessary for Evil to triumph is for Good men to do nothing." That couldn't be more true, or practically applicable to Morgan's actions as if the saying had been coined by someone who witnessed Morgan's actions.

    Yes, there are times when morality must be dispensed with, in extreme life-or-death situations where it's not simply a matter of one's personal survival but also the survival of those you love and those who are looking to you for protection. There are ALSO times when, all things being equal, acts that the majority of human beings would consider "wrong" or "Evil" are perpetrated not from a sense of necessity but for the sheer wicked joy of reveling in the pain and death of another sentient being...these are acts of "Pure Evil" as far as I'm concerned. Individuals who perpetrate such acts with clear minds (Ie: Without the mitigation of severe mental illness, for example) must be exterminated like vermin.

    Subjective Morality may be a slippery slope, but when you find someone whose swan-dived from said slope into the abyss of Absolute Depravity of their own free will, you either kill them, die trying, or assume co-equal responsibility for their actions.

  15. #15
    Twitching sandrock74's Avatar
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    No one is responsible for the actions of others. It's really that simple.

    Should Morgan have killed the two "wolves"? Probably, yes. Is he responsible for anything they may do afterwards? Nope; THEY would be responsible for their actions.

    That said...I wonder when Morgan took lessons from Donatello?

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