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Thread: Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting

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    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting

    No doubt the gun control topic will get raised in the US... again...

    And no doubt, ignored again?
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    No doubt the gun control topic will get raised in the US... again...

    And no doubt, ignored again?
    Mmm ... the whiff of "rinse & repeat" is returning.

    Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome. Sure, I'm an outsider to the USA's gun culture, but even still, as an outsider looking in I'm stunned that they keep doing the same dance again and again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    Mmm ... the whiff of "rinse & repeat" is returning.

    Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome. Sure, I'm an outsider to the USA's gun culture, but even still, as an outsider looking in I'm stunned that they keep doing the same dance again and again.
    Indeed... Flood the population with guns, and then be surprised when the people you'd least want to have them... Have them...

    - - - Updated - - -

    So they had the owner of the store where the weapon(s) were bought from, and we had the classic, "It's the person, not the weapon at fault!"

    Yes, it IS the person who is to blame. BUT, give them access to tools specifically made to kill people as easily and efficiently as possible makes sense because?


    Question: If only single shot muskets were permitted to be sold, how would that have affected this event?
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Indeed... Flood the population with guns, and then be surprised when the people you'd least want to have them... Have them...

    - - - Updated - - -

    So they had the owner of the store where the weapon(s) were bought from, and we had the classic, "It's the person, not the weapon at fault!"

    Yes, it IS the person who is to blame. BUT, give them access to tools specifically made to kill people as easily and efficiently as possible makes sense because?


    Question: If only single shot muskets were permitted to be sold, how would that have affected this event?
    On the news last night there was an interesting point made - the mental health aspect is an issue, but it's also partly being used as a distraction from the gun debate. Every country has problems with citizens who have mental health issues, but America's obsessive love with guns is quite unusual and is reflected in the gun deaths as part of homicides. In America it's something like 64% gun-related, whereas here in the UK - where you can pretty much only get hunting rifles/shotguns with a very strict license (game hunting, wildlife population control) - it's 4.5%.

    Now, yes, you can find illegal guns in the UK or any other nation that has severely restricted/banned guns, but you can get illegal guns in America as well. But, the numbers of people being killed is also quite different and, naturally, far fewer people are getting killed here in the UK compared to America. Sure, there's the population difference, but even still.

    It also sounds like a lot of obvious warning signs were ignored, which in itself is incredible to hear considering how much experience the nation has with mass shootings. America's continuing problem with gun violence is just mind boggling, and it's incredibly sad that even if a majority of the public think the gun laws need looking at/changing, the gun lobby is so powerful that it can strike down any approach to the subject. I'm not saying America should ban guns - it's just not practical in that culture - but to do nothing? That's just perverse.

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    Dying beat_truck's Avatar
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    I live in the US, and in my opinion, they could put more and more restrictions on owning and buying guns or even possibly try to ban ownership together, and it would make very little difference at this point. There are just too many guns already owned, legal or not. The government would have to forcefully search and seize guns from literally every citizen, and that will never happen without causing a MAJOR war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beat_truck View Post
    I live in the US, and in my opinion, they could put more and more restrictions on owning and buying guns or even possibly try to ban ownership together, and it would make very little difference at this point. There are just too many guns already owned, legal or not. The government would have to forcefully search and seize guns from literally every citizen, and that will never happen without causing a MAJOR war.
    So in essence you're all held to ransom by your own arsenal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by beat_truck View Post
    I live in the US, and in my opinion, they could put more and more restrictions on owning and buying guns or even possibly try to ban ownership together, and it would make very little difference at this point. There are just too many guns already owned, legal or not. The government would have to forcefully search and seize guns from literally every citizen, and that will never happen without causing a MAJOR war.
    Agreed... Some serious checks before you can purchase a gun? An X week delay in being able to pick up the gun? And then some considered changes/reforms to gun ownership over the next 50 years?

    Or carry on and continue to give guns to anyone and everyone, and just accept a psycho will use them to mow down as many people as they can every X months?
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Agreed... Some serious checks before you can purchase a gun? An X week delay in being able to pick up the gun? And then some considered changes/reforms to gun ownership over the next 50 years?

    Or carry on and continue to give guns to anyone and everyone, and just accept a psycho will use them to mow down as many people as they can every X months?
    Didn't Trump remove a security check related aspect to gun purchasing that Obama had introduced? Something to do with mental health checks RE: gun ownership?

    Perhaps stricter requirements for securing a weapon within the home? Some of these shooters have had easy access to weapons within their own family home or homes of relatives? Then there's accidental shootings where kids have found unsecured weapons lying around and thought it was a toy, only to end up killing a family member!

    There could be better classification of what types of weapons are permitted for civilian use. Do civilians really need a military grade weapon to defend their home?

    What about some kind of spot-checking system, whereby a weapons inspector could do random visits to the homes of gun owners and see if what they own is according to the appropriate records on file (i.e. to see if anyone has unregistered weapons, or illegally modified weapons, or large amounts of ammunition).

    There are, surely, a whole raft of improvements that could be made to gun ownership - as well as the culture of gun ownership - that would help while not 'taking all muh guns away!'

    I've seen some reactions on social media (from outside the USA) which are just calling for an outright ban. Needless to say, that's wishful thinking on their part, and a bit ignorant of the culture of gun ownership in America (not to mention the 2nd Ammendment being an enshrined law and right of the people). To sit and do nothing would be utter madness, but at the same time the culture is so embedded that drastic changes aren't realistic. Australia and the United Kingdom might have made sweeping changes in the wake of massacres, but the long tradition of gun ownership wasn't there. There was no national obsession with guns, no NRA types of bodies lobbying with immense power, so the change was relatively easy to make.

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    How many years has this topic been discussed? How many years have these sorts of mass shorting been high profile? And here we have the AR-15 rifle which:-

    They are very easy to buy — and for a 19-year-old like Nikolas Cruz, the shooting suspect, far easier to obtain than a handgun.

    Florida has a three-day waiting period for handgun purchases. But anyone without a felony record, domestic abuse conviction, or a handful of other exceptions — such as a commitment to a mental institution — can walk into a gun store, wait a few minutes to clear a background check, and walk out with an AR-15 -style rifle, magazines and ammunition.
    ^^ How does that make any LOGICAL SENSE at all? I'm bemused US folks what's the logic behind this is TBH!

    How can you be allowed to buy a device aimed at killing effectively and easily.... and before you're even trusted to buy beer? I repeat, US folks what's the logic behind this is TBH!



    Let me guess - Give teachers training and weapons so they can then take part in fire fights when required. Yep... That'll address the core issue!
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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    I worded my response poorly, it seems.

    I never said new regulations wouldn't be a good idea. They definitely are and hopefully some more effective ones will be introduced. By the way, I do have some guns in the house that belonged to my late father, but I am the furthest thing from some kind of gun nut. I'm just making observations as someone who lives here.

    My point was how effective (or not) the regulations would be, overall. No matter how many new regulations are put into effect, the nut jobs that really want to hurt people WILL find a way to do it, unfortunately. Also, I think a lot of the people who shouldn't have guns, already do.

    I don't think people that live in countries where guns are severely restricted have any clue just how many are already in circulation in this country, especially in more rural areas, and how easy they are to get a hold of. I wouldn't be very surprised if there were 100 guns in the 1 mile between my house and the intersection with the next major road. But, I live in the country. Obviously, ownership in cities wouldn't be that extreme, though.

    More regulations on sales of guns by retailers are a good idea and would be fairly easy to enforce. But, the problem is, it's going to be extremely difficult to enforce rules on gun sales by private owners. I know hand guns technically do, but I don't think rifles and shot guns even require any sort of registration. If they do, nobody I know does it. So, it's not like most guns can be tracked. For example, who's to say I couldn't just hand my neighbor some cash and bring a rifle home? I could. It's that easy.

    As for some kind of random searches of people's homes? Just, NO. Not going to happen. That's the kind of thing the people that founded this country DIDN'T want to happen, and there are laws in existence preventing it from happening. It would cause a MAJOR uproar of the population here, possibly even resulting in a civil war.

    It really is horrible that people selfishly do things like this, and I don't know what the ultimate solution is, or if there even is an effective one. I hate to say it, but considering the size of this country, the number of people in it, and just how utterly SHITTY many of them treat each other, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.
    Last edited by beat_truck; 18-Feb-2018 at 07:39 AM. Reason: typo

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    The fact that it seems to be so easy to get hold of a weapon - and the lack of registration for certain weapons (or people simply ignoring the rules without any punishment) - is a big part of the problem, surely?

    Every country has its nutjobs, but America makes it so easy for their nutjobs to slaughter dozens whenever they feel like it. It's mind boggling.

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    Oh, I agree.

    The law makers should do SOMETHING besides sit on their asses ignoring the problem.

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    Let's suggest two things?

    1) You have to wait a month to obtain any gun you've purchased. And this therefore gives more times to more details checks. eg: You pop up in any list, it's checked.
    2) 30 round legal clips for assault rifles? Why not 6-8?

    Surely those are too much of a hassle to save lives?
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by beat_truck View Post
    Oh, I agree.

    The law makers should do SOMETHING besides sit on their asses ignoring the problem.
    As an American gun owner, what sort of things might you suggest as reasonble improvements, having seen how things work from the inside, as-it-were?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    As an American gun owner, what sort of things might you suggest as reasonble improvements, having seen how things work from the inside, as-it-were?
    I think you are giving me a little more credit than I deserve here. Having a few old guns sitting in the corner collecting dust and catching bits of the news here and there, doesn't make me any kind of expert.

    I can't really come up with much that might actually be useful. Neil's suggestions would be a good place to start. I agree that assault weapons that hold a massive amount of ammo really aren't necessary. The mental health aspect should be explored more. Although, there is a lot of grey area there. Many folks with mental disorders aren't and will likely never be violent, but on the other hand "normal" folks aren't always that either.



    EDIT: And a major US gun retailer has shown some common sense - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43223279

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