So has France got it right banning the veil?

[Legion2213]

Covering your face makes you unreadable to other people, it seperates you from others, it hinders communication and trust. Let's be clear here, because some are trying to muddy the waters....jewish, hindu and sikh headgear does not cover the face, wearing a cross does not cover the face, wearing a full face vale does cover the face. Also of note, nowhere in the Koran does it instruct women to fully cover their entire face and body in a tent with eye slits...this is something that happened long after Mohammed died...usually enforced by fundamentalists lile the taleban and so called "religious police". Edit: I also note it seems to be our american friends standing up and saying this shouldn't be banned, which is understandable really, your immigrants seem to assimilate better than european immigrants.

[SRP76]

It's their country. They can do whatever the fuck they want. It's not their job to cater to some religion. If you want to wear a bag on your head, or eat your children, or tattoo sharks on your ass, or whatever in your home, that's your own business. Out on the street, fitting yourself into the rules isn't going to kill you. Don't drag your religion out there for everyone else, because they're not impressed anyway.

[JDFP]

Edit: I also note it seems to be our american friends standing up and saying this shouldn't be banned, which is understandable really, your immigrants seem to assimilate better than european immigrants. At least the legal ones, but that's a completely different argument all together I'm sure we'll eventually have in another thread. j.p.

[BillyRay]

Edit: I also note it seems to be our american friends standing up and saying this shouldn't be banned, which is understandable really, your immigrants seem to assimilate better than european immigrants. As long as they stay the hell away from Arizona...

[SRP76]

Edit: I also note it seems to be our american friends standing up and saying this shouldn't be banned, which is understandable really, your immigrants seem to assimilate better than european immigrants. I'm an American, and I say "ban away". The problem here is that "assilmilate" is being misused. Rather than the "we'll fit in" definition, some jokers want to use the "resistance is futile" definition. They want to march in, and, rather than adapt to what's already there, they want YOU do "adapt to service us". Sorry, but fuck off. That's the case here. You're in France. France does NOT "need to" do one fucking thing for you. They don't have to accept your way of life, they don't have to bend over to make things comfortable for you, they don't have to do jack shit. That's the whole point to being a country; it's your house, your rules. Put another way, just consider the fact that you have a home. You have a next-door neighbor. Alright, now what do you suppose will happen if your neighbor comes over, marches into your livingroom, and starts telling you "how it's gonna be"? That'll go over real well, won't it? Now, because we have common sense, we don't do things like that to our next-door neighbors. We know we'll probably get beat to a bloody pulp if we try that shit with somebody. But some minorities/religions/whatever don't seem to have that common sense. They actually think the world revolves around what they want. Nope, it doesn't. You adapt to where you go, where you go does not adapt to you.

[shootemindehead]

As a person who despises all organised religions, I have to say that I am in two minds about this one. However, I'm with SRP. If a person chooses to live in a particular country, then they should adapt by that Country's laws, even if this particular move is happening after the majority of muslims living in France have already been there for quite a while. But, in the end this is really small potatoes and it may just be France drawing a very visible line in the sand. The serious issue is when elements of other nation's laws, such as Sharia law are given equal or superior measure to regional national law, then that to my mind is when things become upped to a whole new level.

[Ghost Of War]

I'm an American, and I say "ban away". The problem here is that "assilmilate" is being misused. Rather than the "we'll fit in" definition, some jokers want to use the "resistance is futile" definition. They want to march in, and, rather than adapt to what's already there, they want YOU do "adapt to service us". Sorry, but fuck off. That's the case here. You're in France. France does NOT "need to" do one fucking thing for you. They don't have to accept your way of life, they don't have to bend over to make things comfortable for you, they don't have to do jack shit. That's the whole point to being a country; it's your house, your rules. Put another way, just consider the fact that you have a home. You have a next-door neighbor. Alright, now what do you suppose will happen if your neighbor comes over, marches into your livingroom, and starts telling you "how it's gonna be"? That'll go over real well, won't it? Now, because we have common sense, we don't do things like that to our next-door neighbors. We know we'll probably get beat to a bloody pulp if we try that shit with somebody. But some minorities/religions/whatever don't seem to have that common sense. They actually think the world revolves around what they want. Nope, it doesn't. You adapt to where you go, where you go does not adapt to you. Yes. This. 100%.

[Publius]

Can't see this... Again, let's see a religon try and get its followers to carry ceremonial weapons? You're suggesting society/government shouldn't have an opinion on such a matter? Have you forgotten you're talking to an American there? Most of us think the government has no business banning people from carrying around handguns, so why should we shiver in our boots at the thought of a little Sikh dagger? Combine a 2nd Amendment violation with a 1st Amendment violation and we're supposed to be happier about it?

[SymphonicX]

No one is forcing followers of Islam to live in France. If they are so unhappy with the laws in Europe they are free to return to the Middle East. You can solve all of the world's race relations with this approach! Just remind people how lucky they may have been to live there and pay taxes for 30 years or more! It's REALLY worked over in the UK, over the last few decades we've been very quick to play the "if you don't like it, get out" card - each time it backfires because of the very obvious and dare I say immature approach to people who have taken up citizenship in a democratic society, pay taxes, and expect to be able to "petition the government of grievances" or whatever it says. C'mon man - something of value for your next post? Not trying to be a dick here but it's comments like that which are distracting to the real issues here. You kinda gotta expect this one to not be said - what would you expect a french muslim, who's been living there for decades, to respond with? "oh OK then, I've never seen it like that, I'll just get Afghani passports sorted out for the family i have that was born here and we'll all just emigrate back to our native warzone" They would expect an equal say just like you would. ---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ---------- As for my stance on this issue - the only problem I have with religion is when it inspires people to oppress or kill others - this veil issue first has to be contextualised properly - we may see it as oppression but you'd find a lot of muslims, either converted or born into it, wouldn't agree with you. Jury's out on whether to believe it or not - but bottom line, I don't think it's the decision of any non-muslim.

[Eyebiter]

There is an attitude now days among recent immigrants that they should be allowed to emigrate into western nations without making any attempt to adapt to the prevailing culture at hand. On one hand they want all the freedoms associated with living in a western nation, including welfare, access to hospitals, free school for their kids, and other advantages. But they don't think the prevailing legal system in place should apply to them. That their status as immigrants should give them special status. They should not be required to take any steps to fit in. Compare that attitude to the earlier waves of immigration into the United States. People made it a point to learn the language, adopt the prevailing culture, to the point they stopped speaking their native tongue and changed their names to sound more Americanized. There is a reason the US was called the great American melting pot. The fact that people adapted to learn to live together. With the Muslims in France it's the exact opposite, they think their people should be allowed to enter the country and have the French bend to their will and values. That isn't immigration folks, that is an invasion. How far are you willing to go to accommodate these new arrivals? Should we be forced to change our laws to suit the whims and wishes of people wanting to live in the 7th Century? Forget that noise.

[Danny]

Quick question folks, what is the bad thing that's going to happen by allowing women of muslim beliefs to wear a veil? See this seems to stem mostly from "there terrorists, hiding there face" -isn't that counter productive to terrorism? If these people are secret bombers or something they arent helping there cause standing out are they? Veils arent exactly hidden in plain site. I'm gonna call it, for every 2 people who genuinely feel its a culture collision problem theres a hundred people who are being out and out racist and this is a fine excuse. A terrorist can hide in a tracksuit and trainers just as easily as in a turban and a robe or some other cliche' hollywood movie bollocks.

[JDFP]

Have you forgotten you're talking to an American there? Most of us think the government has no business banning people from carrying around handguns, so why should we shiver in our boots at the thought of a little Sikh dagger? Combine a 2nd Amendment violation with a 1st Amendment violation and we're supposed to be happier about it? Right on. The government doesn't have any right banning Americans from carrying fire-arms as long as they are legally carrying fire-arms and responsible (say, not convicted felons). It is a Constitutional right. And Sikh's who want to carry ceremonial daggers -- absolutely. It's their right. Funny thing is, an irresponsible person can kill someone with a gun but they are protected by the Constitution. I can't recall the last time a burqa attacked anyone and religious ideology is protected by the Constitution too. It seems that someone committing a crime with a burqa on is far more terrible than say someone wearing a Halloween outfit doing it (or just a regular joe not wearing a veil/burqa doing it). Of course, that has nothing to do with the fact that people associate terrorism with Islam and they don't associate crime with wearing a Halloween costume or wearing jeans and a t-shirt. j.p.

[SymphonicX]

Quick question folks, what is the bad thing that's going to happen by allowing women of muslim beliefs to wear a veil? See this seems to stem mostly from "there terrorists, hiding there face" -isn't that counter productive to terrorism? If these people are secret bombers or something they arent helping there cause standing out are they? Veils arent exactly hidden in plain site. I'm gonna call it, for every 2 people who genuinely feel its a culture collision problem theres a hundred people who are being out and out racist and this is a fine excuse. A terrorist can hide in a tracksuit and trainers just as easily as in a turban and a robe or some other cliche' hollywood movie bollocks. agreed! ---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ---------- There is an attitude now days among recent immigrants that they should be allowed to emigrate into western nations without making any attempt to adapt to the prevailing culture at hand. On one hand they want all the freedoms associated with living in a western nation, including welfare, access to hospitals, free school for their kids, and other advantages. But they don't think the prevailing legal system in place should apply to them. That their status as immigrants should give them special status. They should not be required to take any steps to fit in. Compare that attitude to the earlier waves of immigration into the United States. People made it a point to learn the language, adopt the prevailing culture, to the point they stopped speaking their native tongue and changed their names to sound more Americanized. There is a reason the US was called the great American melting pot. The fact that people adapted to learn to live together. With the Muslims in France it's the exact opposite, they think their people should be allowed to enter the country and have the French bend to their will and values. That isn't immigration folks, that is an invasion. How far are you willing to go to accommodate these new arrivals? Should we be forced to change our laws to suit the whims and wishes of people wanting to live in the 7th Century? Forget that noise. jews can be orthodox in the US and you'd often see hacidic jews living in both the US and the UK No one's told him to take off their skull caps, or shave their sideburns....in fact they have the freedom to practise their religion in the US as they wish and wearing whatever they wish. You've just got a hard on for Islam and are looking to use it, it's a shame - it's also a shame you haven't really considered the similarities between all breadths of religion that exist in your own country, including Islam. You give yourself away with statements using words like "they" - "us and them" mentality. ------------------------ On a side note, and reiterating what Hellsing said - this is not an issue to do with terrorism, so any arguments or discussions based on terrorism should be in another thread - this is about France's action to ban the veil. Terrorism doesn't feature in the average muslim life and neither does world domination. That should not be a controversial thing to say.

[JDFP]

On a side note, and reiterating what Hellsing said - this is not an issue to do with terrorism, so any arguments or discussions based on terrorism should be in another thread - this is about France's action to ban the veil. Terrorism doesn't feature in the average muslim life and neither does world domination. That should not be a controversial thing to say. Thank you for stating this. It should go without stating at all but thank you for saying it all the same. j.p.

[Eyebiter]

You can't walk into a bank here in the US without taking off your hat and sunglasses for the cameras. It's an inconvenience we all put up with designed to thwart bank robbers. People who wear the veil don't think that law should apply to them. They have also tried on several occasions to get a state issued DRIVERS LICENSE or REGISTER TO VOTE with a veiled picture. Apparently this practice is common in the Middle East (in areas where they let women vote). With all respect to their religious beliefs, why should they expect to have more rights than the rest of us? Isn't the whole point of photo identification to have the ability to identify someone?