Philly and Trin's pointless timeline debate

[SRP76]

I In Day, the tone/atmosphere is desolate. We see 12 living beings the whole movie, thats it. They have actively looked for over 100 miles in each direction and found no one. They have even landed and called out to find survivors, they find none. It is implied that it is possible that these are the last humans on earth. Nicotero even says "maybe we are the only ones left". In Land, there are people all over the place. Wait. People in the one - the only - locked-down city left on the planet (for all we know) doesn't constitute "people all over the place". That's "people in one place". And some dude living in a cave thinking that maybe they're the only ones on Earth means nothing. Any fool that doesn't see anyone else can assume that; doesn't make it true. Don't know what the number of survivors in a location is supposed to mean, anyway. So what if there were more people in a locked down city than in some cave? Means nothing. Night doesn't come after Dawn, and there were more survivors holed up in that house than at the mall.

[Philly_SWAT]

Wait. OK, but only for a few seconds..... People in the one - the only - locked-down city left on the planet (for all we know) doesn't constitute "people all over the place". That's "people in one place". This is a matter of definition of one "place". People in one building could be considered only one "place". People in a small compound could be considered one "place". Several hundred, if not over one thousand people, inhabiting a major downtown area of a major US city could be considered one "place" I suppose....it all depends on one's defintion. And some dude living in a cave thinking that maybe they're the only ones on Earth means nothing. Any fool that doesn't see anyone else can assume that; doesn't make it true. Your statement in a vacuum is true. However, Nicotero was not living in a vacuum making up facts as he went along....he knew the others had searched for 100's of miles while finding no one. He knows (and even said) that more and more zeds were showing up every day. He knows that they can no longer raise anyone on the radio. He can see his superior officer talking about shooting all the specimins in the head and leaving the compound...he has specific reasons to make that statement, not just the single fact that he has seen no others for years. Now, even though he has reasons to think so, like you said, doesnt make it true, same way your not agreeing with it doesnt make it false. Don't know what the number of survivors in a location is supposed to mean, anyway. So what if there were more people in a locked down city than in some cave? Means nothing. Night doesn't come after Dawn, and there were more survivors holed up in that house than at the mall. Your Night vs Dawn analogy is looking at two specific buildings. My Land vs Day analogy is looking at the population of the world. Perfect example of apples to oranges. Stands to reason that there would be MORE people in the world earlier into a zombie outbreak, not later into one.

[SRP76]

People being all dead for 100 miles doesn't point to any kind of timeframe. That could have happened in a month (in a real-world setting, I'll bet it would only take a week). So I don't see how that could possibly be taken as more than 3 years passing (established in Land). Same deal with the radio. All they said was that they used to talk to Washington, now they don't. Well, Peter, Fran and Stephen used to watch tv; now, they don't. And they weren't in that mall anywhere near any 3 years. In fact, I'd bet that the relays they were using for the radio went down right about the same time the television reception went belly-up. Nowhere near in the Land timeframe. And Rhodes wanting to shoot the zombies and leave doesn't mean they were there for long either; I'd have wanted to gun-and-run on Day One, myself. John's island would have looked pretty damn good from the start. Wouldn't take years to come up with that particular plan. In all, I never saw anything in Day that points to it taking place any further into the outbreak than the end of Dawn, much less 3 years in. Yet, there's everything from there still being fuel for the helicopter and compound generators, to newspapers still intact despite being outside in the weather, to there still being the alcohol there for Billy, all pointing to not much time passing at all.

[sandrock74]

And Rhodes wanting to shoot the zombies and leave doesn't mean they were there for long either; I'd have wanted to gun-and-run on Day One, myself. John's island would have looked pretty damn good from the start. Wouldn't take years to come up with that particular plan. In all, I never saw anything in Day that points to it taking place any further into the outbreak than the end of Dawn, much less 3 years in. Yet, there's everything from there still being fuel for the helicopter and compound generators, to newspapers still intact despite being outside in the weather, to there still being the alcohol there for Billy, all pointing to not much time passing at all. I agree about the films taking place in order of release (with the sole exception of Diary, for obvious reasons) and these are valid reasons why. Sorry Philly, I like you dude, and I love your posts, but you'll never convince me that Day takes place after Land, especially by a number of years.

[EvilNed]

Land clearly states that it's set several years after the incident. Day clearly states that it isn't set that far after the incident. At least to me (and most others, I'd imagine) so I see little point to debate. If one doesn't accept this, then who are we to judge. View the films as you wish, but that's how Romero intended them.

[Philly_SWAT]

View the films as you wish, but that's how Romero intended them. ?!?!!?! THIS QUOTE from the "art is personal" guy? ---------- Post added at 07:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ---------- I agree about the films taking place in order of release (with the sole exception of Diary, for obvious reasons) So, one GAR dead movie is OBVIOUSLY not following a sequential order, yet it is impossible for some to even consider that another might be LESS OBVIOUSLY not following a sequential order?

[krakenslayer]

I think the films take place in order of release. An inconsistencies are easily explained away. They went 100 miles each way from their location and there's no one using radio equipment within a couple hundred miles, that doesn't mean anything: they were doing their searching from the bell-end of Florida - a peninsula in the Gulf of Mexico for goodness sake - so it's not surprising that they are isolated and far out of range of any settlements in the North where survivors may have been more successful in defending themselves. Personally I think it goes: Night: Day 2/3 (because scattered reports of violence are mentioned from the previous day) Diary: Day 2/3 Dawn: Weeks 3-8 (or thereabouts) Day: Year 1-2 Land: Year 3-10

[Philly_SWAT]

In all, I never saw anything in Day that points to it taking place any further into the outbreak than the end of Dawn, much less 3 years in. Yet, there's everything from there still being fuel for the helicopter and compound generators, to newspapers still intact despite being outside in the weather, to there still being the alcohol there for Billy, all pointing to not much time passing at all. Funny how people interpret things sometimes.....fuel for ONE helicopter...fuel for ONE generator...presumably they werent joyriding in the chopper, only missions, and the generator wouldnt be needed much at all during winter seeing as they were in South Florida, and underground means cooler, means no A/C. And alcohol for ONE guy, Billy....somehow these factors point to Land being a short time after the outbreak. But fuel for a heavy vehicle Dead Reckoning, and all the support vehicles for it.....whose purpose was not the occasional recon for survivors but constant recon for supplies.....and alcohol for MANY MANY people to drink in clubs, while looking for hookers....while engaging in casual conversation in their luxury condo....these facts point to it being THREE YEARS after the outbreak? Even if it were a fact that Land was 3 years in and Day was only a few months, this line of supporting argument does not seem to make any logical sense. Do you know what they had in that underground bunker? They have the books and the records for the top 500 companies, they have the defense department budget down there, they have the negatives for all your favorite movies, they got microfilm with tax returns and newspaper stories, they got immigration records and census reports, they got official reports for all the wars and plane crashes and volcano eruptions and earthquakes and fires and floods and all the other disasters that interrupted the flow of things in the good ole US of A. You have seen with your own eyes how massively big the complex is. They use a golf cart to get around a lot of the time. You dont think they would have some spare room for extra fuel and extra liquor? And take advantage of some of the extra room for that very purpose? ---------- Post added at 08:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 AM ---------- I think the films take place in order of release. 1968 - Night: Day 2/3 (because scattered reports of violence are mentioned from the previous day) 2007 - Diary: Day 2/3 1979 - Dawn: Weeks 3-8 (or thereabouts) 1985 - Day: Year 1-2 2005 - Land: Year 3-10 It doesnt appear that you think the films take place in order of release....

[krakenslayer]

Funny how people interpret things sometimes.....fuel for ONE helicopter...fuel for ONE generator...presumably they werent joyriding in the chopper, only missions, and the generator wouldnt be needed much at all during winter seeing as they were in South Florida, and underground means cooler, means no A/C. And alcohol for ONE guy, Billy....somehow these factors point to Land being a short time after the outbreak. But fuel for a heavy vehicle Dead Reckoning, and all the support vehicles for it.....whose purpose was not the occasional recon for survivors but constant recon for supplies.....and alcohol for MANY MANY people to drink in clubs, while looking for hookers....while engaging in casual conversation in their luxury condo....these facts point to it being THREE YEARS after the outbreak? Even if it were a fact that Land was 3 years in and Day was only a few months, this line of supporting argument does not seem to make any logical sense. Simple. The Green had Dead Reckoning and teams of hardened survivors-turned-mercenaries who had gravitated and converged on the Golden Triangle over the years. These teams are able to go out and scavenge in the nearby towns and return with an almost inexhaustable supply of non-perishable luxury goods and meds for the Green. The bunker had one helicopter with limited capacity, not enough to carry large scavenging teams and certainly not enough for hauling high volumes of goods. They were also severely undermanned and, presumably, far from any pre- or post-apocalypse settlements. Do you know what they had in that underground bunker? They have the books and the records for the top 500 companies, they have the defense department budget down there, they have the negatives for all your favorite movies, they got microfilm with tax returns and newspaper stories, they got immigration records and census reports, they got official reports for all the wars and plane crashes and volcano eruptions and earthquakes and fires and floods and all the other disasters that interrupted the flow of things in the good ole US of A. You have seen with your own eyes how massively big the complex is. They use a golf cart to get around a lot of the time. You dont think they would have some spare room for extra fuel and extra liquor? And take advantage of some of the extra room for that very purpose? I just think that's stretching the argument a little thin. Would the government want to sponsor its employees' drinking habits to the extent of MacDermott's? I think the bunker only had a minimal supply of alcohol and the powers that be in the latter days (Cooper and then Rhodes) don't want to waste time and men collecting booze on their trips out. There really wasn't a lot to suggest that the base was running out of fuel either. The chopper itself was "down to fumes" at the start, but that's because they'd just travelled "100 miles each way" (a 400-mile round trip, almost precisely the fully-laden range of a Bell Jetranger). Moreover, there's nothing to suggest that the government expected them to be down there more than a few months. Probably the expectation was that if they hadn't cracked it within a year, it's not worth worrying about the continued survival of the workers because the USA would have broken down already. Now, that time has past, stocks are running low because they were never intended to last that long. The records etc. are down there to serve the purpose of a time capsule, so that future post-apoc civilisations will know about what came before in this very eventuality. That's my take on it, your mileage may differ, I'm just trying to illustrate that these films were almost made for allowing different interpretations - and that the issues that you guys keep throwing up are not the logical brick-walls you're making them out to be, but, with a little imagination, actually add flavour to the scenario. It doesnt appear that you think the films take place in order of release.... I was referring to the original trilogy initially, then threw in Diary afterwards.

[Thorn]

?!?!!?! THIS QUOTE from the "art is personal" guy? ---------- Post added at 07:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ---------- So, one GAR dead movie is OBVIOUSLY not following a sequential order, yet it is impossible for some to even consider that another might be LESS OBVIOUSLY not following a sequential order? Diary is not part of the "series" that started with Night and Thus far ended with Land. Your point is moot and you know that I think Philly We have discussed this before, and while I respect your opinion and the passion with which you discuss it I am on record as saying you are wrong and in my opinion you have nothing to base this on other than your own opinion. You can point to things in the movies that YOU feel makes you think as you do. That is still your interpertation and mine leads me elsewhere. Let's face it Land kind of does it's own thing, it is a long way removed from Day and there are inconsistances. But The state of decay of the towns, and the dead themselves clearly show a passing of time beyond day. At the end of the day you can not prove out this theory, it is your pet theory that you hammer on over and over again. If you want clarification ask Gar.

[AcesandEights]

At the end of the day you can not prove out this theory, it is your pet theory that you hammer on over and over again. If you want clarification ask Gar. To be fair, I rather think GAR--after some discussion with Philly--would be as likely to appreciate his different take on the matter, as he might be to dismiss it. Let's not fool ourselves and think GAR attends to his films overarching timelines and internal consistency to the degree that many of his fans will.

[EvilNed]

?!?!!?! THIS QUOTE from the "art is personal" guy? ---------- Post added at 07:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ---------- Yes? Are you surprised that I told you to view them as you wish? That's sort off what "art is personal" is all about.

[Trin]

We are close enough here, we agree. Woohoo!! OK, I had a very long, very brilliant reply here before it was lost, I cant attempt to duplicate it. Let me just say this...why do you and I and everyone else think that a $100 bill has more value than a $1 bill? They are both made of the same material, same size, etc. Only some ink difference. The reason is that WE ALL CHOOSE TO ACCEPT that it has more value. Kaufman would have nothing of any 'value' to anyone to 'back' money with. No one would choose to accept that paper money had value because "Kaufman says so". "Because Kaufman says so," must have some weight in the Green because everyone does everything he says. Which digs into the larger topic, "Where does Kaufman's power derive?" And the answer to that is the really upsetting thing. I think Romero expects us to believe that everyone would still be using money after the fall of society and still defer to the person with the most as having the power. Yes, it may have been " as good as if he were" but he wasnt. A minor point here, but Slack was not forced to do anything, che could have left the city. I'm not sure on that one. We really don't know what Kaufman would've done had Mulligan (as an example) organized 20 or so people with baseball bats and tried to venture out to make their own base. That begs the question then...where were the zombies, or all the dead bodies, if they were so far into the outbreak as you suggest? No. This is YOUR question to answer. In a long timeframe they have plenty of time and options to dispose of bodies, especially with two rivers at their feet, trucks, manpower, etc. In Day, the tone/atmosphere is desolate. We see 12 living beings the whole movie, thats it. They have actively looked for over 100 miles in each direction and found no one. They have even landed and called out to find survivors, they find none. It is implied that it is possible that these are the last humans on earth. Nicotero even says "maybe we are the only ones left". In Land, there are people all over the place. The tone/atmosphere is far less dark. People are looking for fun entertainment. People want money to buy things. They think that money will do them good to leave with. Just the look/tone/atmosphere of the films themselves make it seem as if Day happens later in the outbreak. As far as the money goes, think about this...do you think that any of the characters in Day, even John, would want a shitload of money to venture out on their own with? No. They all realize that money would be worthless, except maybe to wipe their asses with. I say that it is highly unrealistic to say that the world went from the way it was in Day to the way in was in Land. I realize that took place in different locales, but there is no reason to think that life would be so much better in one area of the United States vs another. I disagree with "people all over the place." In Day we see one survivor base. In Land we see one survivor base. Both areas were places where people made a stand and succeeded. Both movies implied that they were the last survivors. If I were to assess which group of people had a better chance of knowing for sure they were the last survivors I would say Land. They had far greater resources for communication or to mount a search effort. The very scavenging forays they did into the wild were far more exhaustive searches than anything Day did in the chopper. The chopper could've flown within 15 miles of a Fiddler's Green and not realized it. They could've flown right over a dozen bunkers like their own and not known. The scavengers, on the other hand, would've seen evidence of survivors. Which doesn't prove anything of course. We don't even know if the scavengers would care if they found other survivors. The people in Land wanted entertainment. I cannot fathom why you think that implies a shorter timeframe. With your whole world recently turned upside down and death all around you I'd think the last thing you'd do is decide to try to find a bar so you could bet on zombie fights or go get your picture taken at the zombie photo stand. The whole society in Land is one indicative of a long time spent living in the situation. You say that Cholo and Peter cannot be compared because Cholo has lots of people around him and Peter was living in isolation. Then you go on to say that the people in Day were obviously further along the timeframe because they had a darker mood. Well which is it? By your own arguments the people living underground in the bunker had reason to be much more depressed and despondent than the people in Land, regardless of timeframe. We know that prior to the events in Day they'd lost 6 people, which is roughly a third of their initial complement. So the darkness of the mood doesn't prove anything. And let's not forget that the people in Day wanted entertainment too. John and Bill decorated an RV where they relaxed and read through the records stored there because they were bored and wanted something to do. They were more like the people in Land in attitude than like the scientists or military. They'd moved past trying to save the old world. They were looking at how to make the best of the new one. And they were converting Sarah to that attitude. I think Day was the transition in attitudes between Dawn and Land. The dying of any effort to save the old world and the beginning of acceptance of the new. Let's look at this another way. What happens to the people in Day once they're living on the island? Let's assume they've moved past trying to find a cure, they have a relatively safe haven, and they have resources to live out their lives in relative comfort. They're "enjoying the time they have left." Do they begin to relax and become comfortable? Or do they sink into a deeper depression? To support your timeline arguments they can only get worse because people only decline post-outbreak. But I think it's inevitable that eventually people learn to live with the situation and rebound. And I think that's exactly what we see in Land. I think the tone/atmosphere is the exact reason why Land is further along.

[sandrock74]

Just because Sarah and the boys didn't see anyone within a hundred miles in each direction from their bunker doesn't mean that there wasn't any survivors. Let's take a look at the beginning of Day for a moment. They land the chopper, and Miguel and Sarah get out. Miguel starts yelling into a megaphone, stirring every zombie in earshot. The streets are soon flooded with zombies, going directly towards the racket of the megaphone and chopper. Query: If you were a survivor in the vicinity, would YOU have gone running out into the street, ducking and weaving through the zombie horde to get to the man and woman standing by a chopper (already with two people in it) that only has four seats in it? I sure as hell wouldn't! I would've been pissed at them for riling up all the dormant zombies in the area. All those aggitated zombies wouldn't just disappear once the chopper flew away. Who knows how long it would take for them to "disappear" once again? A day? A week?? A month??? The zombies outside the mall in Dawn were there for months (judging by Frans belly), so there is no reason to think the Florida zombies would just go away once they got all riled up en masse. Also, Trin raised a good point. There's no telling how many survivor settlements like their own they may have flown over and never realized was there. Or people who are hidden away in fortified buildings. Or people who were 110 miles away. Why did they assume that if there were no survivors advertising themselves in a 100 mile radius, that there were NO survivors anywhere? That's just retarded thinking. If they were serious about finding other survivors, they would have had a search pattern in place and done more than land and start yelling through a megaphone. It almost seemed to me that they were just going out and looking at random, just for something to do. Also, what was their plan? If they found a survivor, shuttle them back to the bunker with Sarah sitting on their lap? Of all the movies, Day is the one that I would least want to be in! Everyone worked against one another and there wasn't really any plan.

[darth los]

Of all the movies, Day is the one that I would least want to be in! Everyone worked against one another and there wasn't really any plan. Which was the true horror of the situation. And which is why GAr is a genius.