Ahh, religion and ignorance at its modern day best!

[LoSTBoY]

Bit back on topic, considering God and it's morals. Where is the evidence he is a forgiving god? I'm agnostic myself, always open to theory. However from all the gods in this crappy little world, it is one fictional God that I agree with. Robert E. Howards Cimmerian god Crom. This is a god who has created you, given you life, and expects you to use it. If you ask him for help, he will consider it an insult and curse you for it. Quite simply: "You have been born, consider those who have not, you are the lucky ones so make the fucking most of it!!!"

[EvilNed]

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna". Sounds to me like your "source" is just aware of what catalyst set him in motion to being a homosexual, rather than him making any active choice. Also, I think part of the problem here is that you view this as an "opinion". Sure, you can call it that. But you won't (and aren't) getting very far with that argument. I find it difficult to respect your "opinion" on the matter, Mr. Heterosexual-religious-man. As for the belittling, consider this: Your "opinions" are considered quite offensive. I'd put them on equal footing with racism, and I fucking will have none of that shit. It's old-school dogma based on nothing but preconcieved bullshit. If you feel I'm belittling you, then I'm sorry for hurting your feelings but shit... Imagine yourself in a heated argument with a stupid biggot and then imagine how I feel.

[Danny]

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna". Honestly that sounds like a guy whos been in self denial for a long time. i mean 'suddenly' coming out of the closet as his marriage falls apart? suddenly deciding on a whim AFTER that that he is gay? honestly im not getting into this argument but that certainly sounds like the guys giving an easy to brush off answer rather than go into what could have been a long and troubling situation. -that and one guy certainly is not a good sample of evidence for billions.

[Neil]

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna". There is actually some research comparing identical and non-identical twins. The identical twins were far more likely to show the same sexual orientation in adulthood... I guess not conclusive, but certainly seems to suggest that how you're initially wired has a strong effect on the outcome... Also, as regards looking at the sexuality of a 2yr old, that's somewhat daft, as it's typically not until puberty that true sexual orientation may become clear? And if we consider this, and those suggesting homosexuality is simpy a choice, consider the hell many teenagers go through trying to do what they desperately want to do, fit in and conform, when their wiring is unfortunately telling them the opposite... Doesn't seem logical to suggest this is simply a life style choice or something as trivial as that!?

[Kaos]

I have to agree with you, Neil. Saying that it is a choice to be gay is a platitude that is too simplistic to model reality. If it were true then it would mean that blind2d and JDFP could become homosexuals merely by choosing to be so. By merely saying so in their mind they would become randy over Brad Pitt. Sound ludicrous? It is. What makes one a heterosexual or homosexual is not the act of having sex. It starts in the brain with desire. If you desire sex with the someone of the same sex as yourself you are a homosexual, if you desire sex with the opposite sex then you are heterosexual, if the sex of the participant is irrelevant to your desire you are Mike70, Neil, or bisexual. I am outa here before Mike or Neil zaps me.

[JDFP]

I have to agree with you, Neil. Saying that it is a choice to be gay is a platitude that is too simplistic to model reality. If it were true then it would mean that blind2d and JDFP could become homosexuals merely by choosing to be so. By merely saying so in their mind they would become randy over Brad Pitt. Sound ludicrous? It is. What makes one a heterosexual or homosexual is not the act of having sex. It starts in the brain with desire. If you desire sex with the someone of the same sex as yourself you are a homosexual, if you desire sex with the opposite sex then you are heterosexual, if the sex of the participant is irrelevant to your desire you are Mike70, Neil, or bisexual. I am outa here before Mike or Neil zaps me. It's a good post, Kaos. I know I'm certainly prone to sometimes oversimplification (although more often I'm more prone to complexicating simple things). I do believe that internal chromosomes certainly do have a major impact on how an individual will become. However, I think we're more than our inherent chromosomes. We are our actions and the choices we make as well. Perhaps it's a bit of an oversimplification to say that it's just a matter of choosing or not (and ignoring the internal chromosomes that help shape someone) -- but I think it's equally an oversimplification to say that we're only what our internal nature makes us without taking into consideration our actions/choices in life. Just because someone may have homosexual thoughts doesn't make that person a homosexual. Being homosexual is more than just chromosomes and/or hormones. Our nature as individuals is our actions as well. The internal has a tremendous bearing on our lives -- but it is not the end all be all. This is where 'choice' comes into play. There are some people with some highly sociopathic thoughts out there (including some I know very well, unfortunately) as well and they are predisposed due to many elements (chromosomes, etc.) but that doesn't make the person a sociopath by merely having the thoughts -- it must be acted upon as well. I think both the thought and the action both have to go hand-in-hand. I am really pleased that we've all managed to have this really interesting conversation without anyone flame-baiting or any attacks on others. It says a great deal about our great community here that we have in knowing we're able to have conversations like this without anyone going to any extremes or personal attacks. We're all better than that here -- as we've shown. It's part of the reason I dig this place so much (that plus all you people are sick fuckers like I am too who like messed-up horror flicks). Just my thoughts on it, of course. j.p.

[Kaos]

We will have to agree to disagree. I am not into thought crimes so I am not saying that just because someone wants to kill someone makes one a murderer. The act pretty much defines what murder is and therefore who a murderer is. But I am not talking about the crime of murder. I am talking about the definition of a homosexual. I would define a priest who never had sex with anyone a homosexual if he desired to have sex with a man. I would consider an unlucky teenager who never had sex with anyone a heterosexual if he desired to have sex with someone of the opposite sex. I think those definitions would stand in any reasonable circle of open minded folk. That being said, according to your definition of heterosexual, you weren't one until you had sex with a female. Seconds before that event, it was a toss up as to which side of that coin would land facing up. Just kidding of course. You look all man to me JD.

[shootemindehead]

With this "they didn't get to choose" arguement, you open all kinds of doors and it doesn't just stop at what type of gender. It carries on to age, race, ect. Child molestors were born attracted to 8 month old baby girls? They can't help it because they didn't get the choice in the manner of who they are attracted to and want to have sex with. No one said being gay was bad. Only that they have the freedom to choose to be gay or straight. Fuckin hell! That's some weird "logic" there. First of all, NOBODY wakes up one morning and "chooses" to be a chld molester. Those people are formed over a very long period, often beginning in childhood formative years, where the natural sexual imperative gets gradually twisted from the basic imprinted sexual reproduction to the power complex that's at the heart of paedophilia. People who harbour such sexual desire do not do so out of choice in any way shape or form and are often crucified mentally over the position they find themselves in. Additionally, nobody is born a paedophile and often these people have had certian "trigger" events occur in their lives that lead them on a path to their condition. One could say too that homosexuaity is also a mental aberation of the natural sexual imperative. Whereby the person who is affected by such sexual desire is not at liberity to actively choose who they are attracted to. It's certainly somethng that the person cannot help. However, the homosexual person is born with this "twist", the paedophile is made. So called "straight" people have a multitude of sexual aberations too within their sexual makeup, where it be a pre-disposition to redheads, to having gratification achieved by experiencing pain. These are usually built up over many years. Some lie dormant until experienced. Sex and sexual desire is a minefield and one that's formed generally over a long period in one's sexual lifetime. However, the natural sexual imperative, ie that basic animal desire to reproduce, is there within us all from birth. Also, people are confusing "choice" here. Sure, homosexuals "choose" which partners they wish to sleep with, just as hetrosexuals do. But, they DO NOT choose to be homosexual in the first place and that is a huge, huge difference.

[Publius]

the argument that religion is a personal choice only partially holds up. what about the millions upon millions of children that are being brought up by parents who are actively indoctrinating them into a given religion, whether that be islam, christianity, hinduism, or the worship of the holy juju bead on the mountain. do they have a choice? no, i think not. Sure they do. Millions decide to stay with the religion they were brought up in. Millions of others decide to convert to another religion, or drift away into agnosticism or atheism. If religion is not a choice, how do you explain the appearance and spread of new religions? However, the natural sexual imperative, ie that basic animal desire to reproduce, is there within us all from birth. .... (snip) .... Sure, homosexuals "choose" which partners they wish to sleep with, just as hetrosexuals do. But, they DO NOT choose to be homosexual in the first place and that is a huge, huge difference. These don't seem to match up. I know you must know how reproduction works, right?

[shootemindehead]

What do you mean, they don't match up? The sexual imperative is within us all, however, in a homosexual person that basic imperative is mis-aligned somewhere. The is an aberation of that instinct. It makes perfect sense.

[strayrider]

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna". Clean, Although you are correct in your assessment that "zero" evidence exists to "prove" either theory, enough scientific research on the topic has been conducted to at least come up with a workable hypothesis as to the causal factors of homosexuality. As such, the following web page may be of some interest (keeping in mind that homosexuality is defined as a person's self-schema (how they view themselves based on past experiences, present knowledge of self, and future expectations of self) and not necessarily in their observable behavior). http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx Further, your boss' experience is limited to the parameters of a single "case study". In order to convince others that your argument is correct, you'll need to provide data other than "he told me so". -stray- ps-- Khardis, is that you? Is this me?