From Romero's films...

[ProfessorChaos]

rhodes is a character that's hard to sympathize with. i'd never really tried to put myself in his boots (which is odd given my military background), but after 3M's (MagicMoonMonkey) post, i decided to sit back for a viewing and try to put myself into rhode's situation and consider the points made by 3M. rhodes was the new commanding officer of what remained of his military unit, which had seen significant casualties while gathering specimens for the scientist's research. usually when a new CO comes in, they will evaluate and inspect their troops, equipment and facilites, then shake things up so that things are more to their liking. rhodes was in charge of a handful of men who were getting fed up with their mission, becoming complacent, and most likely losing discipline and willingness to follow orders. rhodes also had began to feel that the mission was fucked, the scientists had been giving major cooper the run-around and not producing any results, and the results they were coming up with were quite different that what rhodes and the men expected. add a daily-increasing threat from the "enemy at the gates" and it's no wonder rhodes was a bit more than stessed and irritable about his situation. having said all this, rhodes is still a dick. instead of trying to talk sensibly with the sarah and the other scientists (who were probably also hip to the notion that frankenstein was having some issues) and helping mend the rift between soldiers and scientists, he seized upon his new authority to make things worse by ruining any remaining relations between the two groups with his dictator-like approach to leadership. while he may have began to see the scientists as sympathetic to the ghouls, he still could have at least listened to someone other than the crazy-looking guy who walked around in blood-spattered scrubs and spent all his time playing telephone with his pet dead guy. in addition to this, his men were out of shape, lazy, and had nothing to do but sit around and bitch, fight, and get fucked up when not out bringing in specimens. he could have tried to get his troops in order somewhat and gained their trust a bit more, instead of just pointing guns at them and being a bitter hard-ass. rhodes was a piss-poor leader who inherited a bad situation and made it worse. once the shit began to hit the fan and the cards were all on the table, he captialized upon his authority while it lasted and tried to get he and his men out of the base, so he was still looking out for his men, but most likely only because they were looking up to him. once miguel fucked the entire group over and opened the base to the zeds, rhodes's true colors showed when he screamed like a bitch and left his few loyal followers. 3M, you made a strong argument, and it certainly is a new perspective on the character and events...but rhodes is ultimately just a chump who had more rank than his cronies, who had been skating along stoned-to-the-max and probably didn't give a fuck anymore. logan certainly wasn't a villain, but i will agree that he was a large part of the problem. had the scientists been more unified and stood up to logan and not gone along with his crazy ideas about domestication, perhaps things could have turned out differently. but then we wouldn't have such a great film to discuss in such nerdy detail 20+ years after its release.

[EvilNed]

The villain is usually the guy who opposes the main character and likes to fuck things up. Logan didn't do this. But Rhodes did... An awful lot! Of course he's not a one-dimensional villain. I can see he was probably stressed out, but I can't think of a single scene where I sympathized with him. He never ever once did try to contribute to ANYTHING. Unlike Logan, who actually did believe he could make things better... Even though he was a nutcase! Put it this way: Logan made more positive progress towards a solution than Rhodes did.

[AcesandEights]

The villain is usually the guy who opposes the main character and likes to fuck things up. Logan didn't do this. But Rhodes did... An awful lot! Damned good point, Ned. I can see he was probably stressed out, but I can't think of a single scene where I sympathized with him. He never ever once did try to contribute to ANYTHING. Unlike Logan, who actually did believe he could make things better... Even though he was a nutcase! Another good point and one I agree with. Put it this way: Logan made more positive progress towards a solution than Rhodes did. That's a sad epitaph for Rhodes

[Trin]

There are certainly some good and interesting points coming out of this discussion. I've always said that the real villain of Day was Dr. Logan. He's the one who was ultimately responsible for the friction between the soldiers and the scientists. Not only with his obvious feeding of soldiers to the zombies, but he was also the one hacking up specimens and causing the soldiers to further risk themselves. He's the one pursuing ridiculous alternatives rather than using his brainpower to help Sarah and the others. In a broader horror sense he's the one who showed us hope that the zombies could ignore humans, then we find out it's a lie - he's feeding them human body parts. The man is an absolute monster - it's horror genius. Rhodes on the other hand is a petty tyrant who is only a villain by virtue of situation and plot twist. I think MagicMoonMonkey has a ton of good arguments for why Rhodes is not the bad guy. I'll add a few thoughts. Rhodes was not a leader by choice or by training - he was simply next in line (and there were apparently 5 people in front of him). We can't expect him to step into the role with poise and leadership. I think Rhodes was pretty accomodating. During the meeting the scientists offered him NOTHING beyond excuses, and they admitted things were unlikely to get better, and still Rhodes gave them more time (albeit begrudgingly). His concerns were pretty rational. Given how many people had died (including his superior officer whose role he now has) I think he had every right to push the scientists to justify the risks to his men. And he was open to any progress or arguments that justified further risks. I believe the threats toward Sarah and others were stress induced reactions with a slight influence of newly acquired power gone to his head. However, my pure personal opinion is that Rhodes would not have done anything crazy if he'd not been pushed to it. If he felt there was progress being made and everyone was following his orders I think he would've been fine. I think the crucial counter-argument is what shootme said - Rhodes was not in command for any period of time, and so we don't know whether he would've taken rash actions in the absense of Logan's crimes. In any case, none of that in my mind rivals the villainy of Logan. I vote Logan.

[shootemindehead]

I dunno. I think Logan, as away with the faeries as he was, was actually on to a winner. Albeit, on a miniscule scale and probably far too late into the outbreak to have an overall effect. Logan had successfully diverted a zombie's attention from wanting to eat a live human being in favor of chowing down on heated up dead frozen flesh. Bub had been domesticated and he looked to be rewarded with his food of choice, much like a pet dog. As Sarah pointed out, it wasn't what Bub did...but what he didn't do that was important. Bub was completelt turned from living flesh. In the end Bub wasn't even interested in having a nibble on Rhodes. He just blew him away. Now, obviously, that method of control isn't going to be appealing to the vast majority. But the alternative (zombies eating you) is even less so. Even though his reward method was abhorent, Logan hadn't killed anyone. He simply nicked the dead soldiers and put them on ice. At least he was working towards a solution and I think one of the egg-heads in 'Dawn of the Dead' touches upon the same idea too. Given the timeline, that would certainly have been a better time to try that method of control. If carried out on a large enough scale, it might have been possible to "farm" the living dead as it were into ghettos and exterminate them at leisure... (Now there's a script!!!!!) I'll call it 'Holocaust of the Living Dead' Rhodes on the other hand, had no alternative but getting into the chopper ..."and leavin' you and your high falutin' friends to rot in this stinkin' sewer." Not exactly filling the room with a sense of co-operation or even the slightest hint of a helpful decision. As it turned out though, Rhodes actually had the right idea, if only because the alternatives were non-negotiable at the time though. Just like Cooper in 'Night of the Living Dead' with his ultimately sensible basement idea, getting in the chopper and flying away from the facility didn't turn out to be a bad move after all. Whether taking the civies was in his gameplan is another thing though.

[sandrock74]

One thing that I always wondered about the flying everyone out of the bunker plan...there were too many people (even just military personel) to go anywhere in one ride. I didn't really see everyone as willing to stand in line and wait their flight out.

[Yojimbo]

One thing that I always wondered about the flying everyone out of the bunker plan...there were too many people (even just military personel) to go anywhere in one ride. I didn't really see everyone as willing to stand in line and wait their flight out. Maybe a well disciplined group of soliders would have been willing to stand in line and wait to bug out - my guess is that if Rhodes was a good leader he would have insisted to be in the last group out. Likely, in most cirumstances the civilains would have been allowed to get out on the first run, but since you really could only fit three folks in the chopper (not including the pilot) and there would have been a well-placed bit of concern on the part of the soldiers about whether the civilian pilot would return, my thought is the fairest way to go would have been to mix the evac groups, each flight out having a balance of soldiers and civilans. (This then allows the civilians to be protected at the touchdown site while the rest of the group is shuttled out) The civilian group would have then had to choose amongst themselves who would go in what order, but my guess is Frankenstein would have elected to stay and refused to leave his research - crazy freaking guy that he was.

[MagicMoonMonkey]

5 people share my opinion. For a while I was beginning to wonder if there was something wrong with me as so many of you saw a different Rhodes from myself. I am going to try to find the time to sit down and view the movie from your perspectives to see what it is you see. Logan was still the villain though

[sandrock74]

Maybe a well disciplined group of soliders would have been willing to stand in line and wait to bug out - my guess is that if Rhodes was a good leader he would have insisted to be in the last group out. Likely, in most cirumstances the civilains would have been allowed to get out on the first run, but since you really could only fit three folks in the chopper (not including the pilot) and there would have been a well-placed bit of concern on the part of the soldiers about whether the civilian pilot would return, my thought is the fairest way to go would have been to mix the evac groups, each flight out having a balance of soldiers and civilans. (This then allows the civilians to be protected at the touchdown site while the rest of the group is shuttled out) The civilian group would have then had to choose amongst themselves who would go in what order, but my guess is Frankenstein would have elected to stay and refused to leave his research - crazy freaking guy that he was. Yeah, I always saw Frankenstein as refusing to leave too. He was too whacked out to know any better. Unfortunately, I don't see the rest of them being rational for figuring out who goes and when. Not to mention, where would they go?? When Frankenstein point blank asked Rhodes that very question, Rhodes didn't have an answer...none of them did. But that's a whole other can of worms.

[JDP]

Who did you think had the most gruesome death? I have always thought that Rickles' prolonged death was a bit brutal. Even as the scene faded out he was still screaming away as bits 'n' bobs were being bitten or torn off him. I would go so far as to say that his death would be the most realistic in the sense that no single zombie easily tore limbs from his body or removed his head and spine as witnessed in LotD. You could imagine Rickles still screaming away for several more minutes until he died. Rickles died quite unnecessarily, by the way. He is the only one of the soldiers who had the right idea after seeing the bunker get invaded by the mob of zombies: find another way out! The others either stupidly stayed around trying to hide behind boxes, pallets and such (Torres) or headed towards the headquarters part of the bunker (Rhodes & Steel). Rhodes pretty much had no choice because he had no weapons to try to fight his way out so he had to get some first, but Steel was already armed and could have gone with Rickles towards the corral area, which was the right idea, as you could try to fight your way out through those caves just like the civilians were doing. I always thought that this splitting up of Torres, Steel and Rickles was unrealistic, to say the least. One would think that they would have tried to stick together and try to make it out by joining forces, but instead they foolishly split up. Perfectly calculated to make it easier for the zombies to get them. Strangely enough, once Rickles gets to the corral area, instead of heading straight to the stairs and jumping down into the caves from there, stupidly starts to go around in circles and allows the slowly approaching zombies to trap him. So he is intelligent enough to head to the right area to try to escape the bunker, but once he gets there he turns into a total idiot and neglects the obvious choice of climbing up those clear-of-any-zombies stairs right behind him. Even more difficult to digest than all this is the fact that both Rhodes and Torres somehow manage to miss the very important fact that when John escaped through the caves he left the corral gate open! It is simply impossible that they could not have noticed this, since both of them are pissed off that John managed to overpower them and to add insult to injury also stole their guns. They must obviously have seen where he exited the bunker, but mysteriously neglect to close the corral gate. How convenient for even more zombies to make it into the bunker!

[Neil]

Rickles died quite unnecessarily, by the way. He is the only one of the soldiers who had the right idea after seeing the bunker get invaded by the mob of zombies: find another way out! The others either stupidly stayed around trying to hide behind boxes, pallets and such (Torres) or headed towards the headquarters part of the bunker (Rhodes & Steel). Rhodes pretty much had no choice because he had no weapons to try to fight his way out so he had to get some first, but Steel was already armed and could have gone with Rickles towards the corral area, which was the right idea, as you could try to fight your way out through those caves just like the civilians were doing. I always thought that this splitting up of Torres, Steel and Rickles was unrealistic, to say the least. One would think that they would have tried to stick together and try to make it out by joining forces, but instead they foolishly split up. Perfectly calculated to make it easier for the zombies to get them. Strangely enough, once Rickles gets to the corral area, instead of heading straight to the stairs and jumping down into the caves from there, stupidly starts to go around in circles and allows the slowly approaching zombies to trap him. So he is intelligent enough to head to the right area to try to escape the bunker, but once he gets there he turns into a total idiot and neglects the obvious choice of climbing up those clear-of-any-zombies stairs right behind him. Even more difficult to digest than all this is the fact that both Rhodes and Torres somehow manage to miss the very important fact that when John escaped through the caves he left the corral gate open! It is simply impossible that they could not have noticed this, since both of them are pissed off that John managed to overpower them and to add insult to injury also stole their guns. They must obviously have seen where he exited the bunker, but mysteriously neglect to close the corral gate. How convenient for even more zombies to make it into the bunker! I never did quite understand how the zombies seemed to get ahead/around them in the caverns? I guess the explanation is there was an exit say at the other end of the "lift room" which had a short route back to the caverns. In effect our humans had to take a longer route there?!

[JDP]

I never did quite understand how the zombies seemed to get ahead/around them in the caverns? I guess the explanation is there was an exit say at the other end of the "lift room" which had a short route back to the caverns. In effect our humans had to take a longer route there?! I also did not understand this in the case of Rhodes, Steel and Torrez. In the case of Rickles the obvious explanation is that the zombies he encountered ahead of him are the ones that entered from the caves via the open corral gate. The most puzzling one was Torrez. What the hell was he doing that all those zombies got ahead of him??? All the other soldiers left the zombie mob behind them, but he somehow managed to be in the thick of it.

[EvilNed]

I never did quite understand how the zombies seemed to get ahead/around them in the caverns? I guess the explanation is there was an exit say at the other end of the "lift room" which had a short route back to the caverns. In effect our humans had to take a longer route there?! McDermott grabs the wooden stop when he's locked out of the corrall with Sarah to knock around zombies with. Shortly after this, Steele and Rickles run off to the lift that Miguel's activated - leaving John to knock Rhodes down. Nobody fixes the stop in the corral and zombies get in that way. The zombies that seem to "out run" the soldiers have actually just come in from the corrall.

[JDP]

McDermott grabs the wooden stop when he's locked out of the corrall with Sarah to knock around zombies with. Shortly after this, Steele and Rickles run off to the lift that Miguel's activated - leaving John to knock Rhodes down. Nobody fixes the stop in the corral and zombies get in that way. The gate does not need any wooden stop. It has its own metal bolt. The wooden board is for extra-security. Also, there is yet another gate that drops down and prevents the zombies from entering. Later on one of the zombies in fact accidentally closes this corral gate. All it would have taken is for either Torrez or Rhodes to lower that gate, or close the other gate with the bolt, or both. No zombies could have gotten in that way. It is inconceivable that neither one of them did so and very casually left them wide open. Everyone in that bunker knew very well that there were zombies roaming those caves so the corral gates always had to be closed down when not in use to trap zombies. The zombies that seem to "out run" the soldiers have actually just come in from the corrall. I thought about that possibility, but from the fact that Rickles is able to get to the corral area without being intercepted by any zombies until he is right there, it seems a bit unlikely that the other zombies we see getting ahead of the other soldiers are the ones that came in through the corral.

[EvilNed]

Well, that's how I see it anyway. Makes the most sense to me. Bolt or no bolt - they forgot about shutting that gate.