GAR Intelligent Zombies - Bub vs. Big Daddy

[Philly_SWAT]

Wasn't Bub in the military? I'd have to watch it again, but I know he at least had a military background when he saluted old Pruneface. I remember them mentioning it. I still think Bub's the coolest. He looked like shit in the movie but who knows what he looked like beforehand? He might've been quite the handsome intellectual devil. Ok, maybe that's pushing it... There is no evidence one way or the other if Bub was in the military. Logan says that he must have been in the military when he salutes, but that is just conjecture. I think most of us know the military guys salute each other, and if we were drunk enough, we might salute a military guy if we saw one in uniform, since our brains wouldnt be operating at peak effectiveness. Well, who knows how Bub's brain was operating, so he could have saluting not because he was ex-military, but only because it is common human knowledge about salutes. And I think that Bub had a Junior Mint dropped in his stomach during an operation before the outbreak....

[deadpunk]

And I think that Bub had a Junior Mint dropped in his stomach during an operation before the outbreak.... I was going to shoot for witty remark about this explaining why no one seems offended by the way Bub must smell, but that led me to thinking; No one ever complains of the stench. Ever. Not that I can recall, anyway. Can you imagine what it must have smelled like going into Uniontown? Or in the zombie holding pens in Day? Or the crowded apartment buildings in Dawn? How come no one is ever just standing in the corner, puking their guts out from the reek?

[Philly_SWAT]

I was going to shoot for witty remark about this explaining why no one seems offended by the way Bub must smell, but that led me to thinking; No one ever complains of the stench. Ever. Not that I can recall, anyway. Can you imagine what it must have smelled like going into Uniontown? Or in the zombie holding pens in Day? Or the crowded apartment buildings in Dawn? How come no one is ever just standing in the corner, puking their guts out from the reek? I never thought about it in that way, but you are absolutely correct. I have been around a homeless person, a LIVING homeless person, and I could see how some people would have puked over their stench. So you're right, it must have been HORRIBLE, yet we never even see someone with noseplugs or something.

[Trin]

There is no evidence one way or the other if Bub was in the military. Logan says that he must have been in the military when he salutes, but that is just conjecture. I think most of us know the military guys salute each other, and if we were drunk enough, we might salute a military guy if we saw one in uniform, since our brains wouldnt be operating at peak effectiveness. Well, who knows how Bub's brain was operating, so he could have saluting not because he was ex-military, but only because it is common human knowledge about salutes..... I know that to convince you Philly you'd need to see his military service record along with two forms of military id, preferably one with a picture of him post-zombie, just to be sure. And even then you'd dream up some scenario that could cast doubt. But really, "no evidence one way or the other?" Come on man, the evidence was strong enough to be reasonably sure he was military. He didn't just half-ass salute. He did a full on military stand up straight salute. And he did it without prompting upon seeing a man in uniform. And he did it to the leader, not to any of the subordinates. And he held it until it was returned by Logan. He didn't shave, read the book, or use the phone with nearly that much precision. This was a very strong remembered behavior. I don't buy that him being a zombie and not operating at peak efficiency made him more likely to salute. The common theme of GAR zombies is that they only exhibit behaviors they did in life. Things that are familiar. They don't act like drunk people who have their inhibitions removed. None of that says he wasn't a mechanic though. I was going to shoot for witty remark about this explaining why no one seems offended by the way Bub must smell, but that led me to thinking; No one ever complains of the stench. Ever. Not that I can recall, anyway. Can you imagine what it must have smelled like going into Uniontown? Or in the zombie holding pens in Day? Or the crowded apartment buildings in Dawn? How come no one is ever just standing in the corner, puking their guts out from the reek? Dr. Logan reminds me of a coroner. He has gotten used to the smell, to the point he can pretty much ignore it. The others all seem to spend as little time actually around the dead as they can. And there are a couple moments when Sarah looks like her stomach is turning. It's hard to say that was due to the smell though. Peter and Roger both had some "turning green" moments in the apartments. But that may have been due to seeing the carnage, not the smell. In Land they called them "stenches" which is pretty pointed that there was a recognized smell about them. But there are a couple points that would suggest the zombies don't smell that bad. In Dawn, when they went to clean out the mall it was after they destroyed the zombies and Peter says it's going to start to smell. Like it didn't already smell? There were zombies roaming the mall for a couple weeks prior to their arrival. Apparently they really didn't smell that bad until after they were put down. And you never ever see a character react to smells as indication that zombies are nearby. A good example would be the airport when Peter goes into the building and there are two zombies in there with him. You'd think a couple dead bodies would stink enough you'd know they were around. Or in the apartments when they bust open that door and seem to have no indication there is a wall of zombies on the other side. You'd think the smell would give them a clue.

[deadpunk]

I know that to convince you Philly you'd need to see his military service record along with two forms of military id, preferably one with a picture of him post-zombie, just to be sure. And even then you'd dream up some scenario that could cast doubt. But really, "no evidence one way or the other?" Come on man, the evidence was strong enough to be reasonably sure he was military. He didn't just half-ass salute. He did a full on military stand up straight salute. And he did it without prompting upon seeing a man in uniform. And he did it to the leader, not to any of the subordinates. And he held it until it was returned by Logan. He didn't shave, read the book, or use the phone with nearly that much precision. This was a very strong remembered behavior. I don't buy that him being a zombie and not operating at peak efficiency made him more likely to salute. The common theme of GAR zombies is that they only exhibit behaviors they did in life. Things that are familiar. They don't act like drunk people who have their inhibitions removed. None of that says he wasn't a mechanic though. In looking at BUb, and the time era we are deaing with... Possible solution (highly probable, actually): In order to avoid being drafted for the next clusterfuck that followed Vietnam, Bub took a voluntary 2 year draft following High School. No new wars broke out, and he went back home to live in the trailer park with his mom and her 19 cats. Dr. Logan reminds me of a coroner. He has gotten used to the smell, to the point he can pretty much ignore it. The others all seem to spend as little time actually around the dead as they can. And there are a couple moments when Sarah looks like her stomach is turning. It's hard to say that was due to the smell though. Peter and Roger both had some "turning green" moments in the apartments. But that may have been due to seeing the carnage, not the smell. In Land they called them "stenches" which is pretty pointed that there was a recognized smell about them. But there are a couple points that would suggest the zombies don't smell that bad. In Dawn, when they went to clean out the mall it was after they destroyed the zombies and Peter says it's going to start to smell. Like it didn't already smell? There were zombies roaming the mall for a couple weeks prior to their arrival. Apparently they really didn't smell that bad until after they were put down. And you never ever see a character react to smells as indication that zombies are nearby. A good example would be the airport when Peter goes into the building and there are two zombies in there with him. You'd think a couple dead bodies would stink enough you'd know they were around. Or in the apartments when they bust open that door and seem to have no indication there is a wall of zombies on the other side. You'd think the smell would give them a clue. You could explain away the smell in both the mall and the compound in Day with circulated air systems. But, yeah...the idea of a zombie being able to sneak up on you? Pretty unlikely.

[rongravy]

But, yeah...the idea of a zombie being able to sneak up on you? Pretty unlikely. Not unless you are a heavy smoker. I quit on New Year's and I can smell a mouse fart a block away already...

[krakenslayer]

I don't think zombies smell that bad, at least not initially. They seem to rot at a much reduced rate, which suggests that their bodies will release the noxious fumes at a much lesser rate than a genuinely dead corpse. If you think about it - we see zombies breathe and we see still-red oxygenated blood squirt from their wounds, which suggests that their circulatory and respiratory systems will continue to operate for as long as they are undamaged (i.e. no bullets through the chest or whatever). The heart, for example, is just a muscle, and we know that the zombies have the use of their other muscles only partly impeded by their zombietude. I reckon this reduced metabolism is enough to stop them rotting fully away with a month or two. They don't NEED their heart and lungs intact to survive (as Logan showed us), but in theory they would rot faster without them. This also explains why some zombies by the time of Land looked much worse than others that presumably died around the same time. The "fresher" ones just looked leathery and a little dried out, while some others looked like near-skeletons. So a relatively-intact specimen would not necessarily stink just as badly as a festering corpse, although the more badly wounded ones might. That said, by the time of Land, even the freshies were probably getting a little ripe, hence: "stenches".

[wayzim]

Went through all the posts so not to be redundant, but did anyone not consider Stephen in Dawn to be intelligent? It's not just that he had a rough memory of the hidden stairwell, but that he deliberately motioned to the other zombies to follow him. He waved them on, remember? As to some of the rather elitist comments about Big Daddy, who says that someone who fixes cars for a living is less smart than Bud the soldier? That's something called False Logic, like the Victorian mindset about Class Value or the latter Eugenic Principles of overeducated nutters who'd argue Intelligence in regards to pure race/ethnic lines. I worked on this warehouse job once where the smartest guy in the whole place ran the forklift, go figure. While the progression of evolution in the Romero films is sorta haphazard, at least he gives us something more to chew on than your average Zombie Pic. Like other posters, this is a good topic, let's run it into the ground. Wayne Z

[Philly_SWAT]

As to some of the rather elitist comments about Big Daddy, who says that someone who fixes cars for a living is less smart than Bud the soldier? That's something called False Logic, like the Victorian mindset about Class Value or the latter Eugenic Principles of overeducated nutters who'd argue Intelligence in regards to pure race/ethnic lines. I have mentioned in the past this very point. For all we know, prior to becoming a zed, Big Daddy could have been one of the smartest men on earth, who for any number of reasons just happened to work at a garage. Went through all the posts so not to be redundant, but did anyone not consider Stephen in Dawn to be intelligent? It's not just that he had a rough memory of the hidden stairwell, but that he deliberately motioned to the other zombies to follow him. He waved them on, remember? I hadnt really thought of this before, but you are absolutely correct. This is an excellent point. It is only a few months into the outbreak at this point, and Flyboy is only dead and arisen for an hour at the most. Yet he is motioning to other zombies, and they are following his lead. So to all the people who say that Land HAS to be taking place after the events in Day BECAUSE of the way Big Daddy has "evolved" and is leading other zombies.....obviously not, as the Flyboy zombie was exhibiting similar characteristics before the events of either movie.

[deadpunk]

As to some of the rather elitist comments about Big Daddy, who says that someone who fixes cars for a living is less smart than Bud the soldier? That's something called False Logic, like the Victorian mindset about Class Value or the latter Eugenic Principles of overeducated nutters who'd argue Intelligence in regards to pure race/ethnic lines. I worked on this warehouse job once where the smartest guy in the whole place ran the forklift, go figure. My comments weren't mean to be elitist... I mean, Jesus wept. I was trying to illustrate that a manual laborer would be more apt to recall the simplicities of a hammer over say, a lawyer.

[wayzim]

I hadnt really thought of this before, but you are absolutely correct. This is an excellent point. It is only a few months into the outbreak at this point, and Flyboy is only dead and arisen for an hour at the most. Yet he is motioning to other zombies, and they are following his lead. So to all the people who say that Land HAS to be taking place after the events in Day BECAUSE of the way Big Daddy has "evolved" and is leading other zombies.....obviously not, as the Flyboy zombie was exhibiting similar characteristics before the events of either movie. Just to throw a wrench into this, I was rewatching DOTD and early on where Flyboy tries to find Roger and Peter, he comes out of the stairwell only to be attacked! Peter says "Don't go in that stairwell, you'll lead them right up with you. " So, it could be simple recall after all ... Wayne Z

[Philly_SWAT]

Just to throw a wrench into this, I was rewatching DOTD and early on where Flyboy tries to find Roger and Peter, he comes out of the stairwell only to be attacked! Peter says "Don't go in that stairwell, you'll lead them right up with you. " So, it could be simple recall after all ... Wayne Z I took it that since living Flyboy was right there in front of the door, and zeds were right there attacking Flyboy, that if they SAW him enter they would follow him. Just like right after that scene they make some noise and the zeds come downstairs so there are less of them upstairs, so they can get in the stairwell unseen.

[Trin]

I don't believe flyboy ever motions to the other zombies. I think his arm flails around. When he gets upstairs he closes the door. Did he decide to motion all his zombie buddies upstairs only to close the door on them? No. He remembered at an instinctive level where the safe place was and he knew how to get there. The other zombies followed him out of the same behavior we've seen time and again - one zombie shows interest in something and the others follow along blindly. And I agree with Deadpunk. It's not about a laborer being more or less intelligent. It's about them having more remembered behaviors of physical repetitive manual tasks. Those skills translate better to being a zombie than programming a computer or managing human resources.

[krakenslayer]

I don't believe flyboy ever motions to the other zombies. I think his arm flails around. When he gets upstairs he closes the door. Did he decide to motion all his zombie buddies upstairs only to close the door on them? No. He actually does point quite distinctively with his index finger. And closing the door doesn't seem to be deliberate, he stumbles a little and tries to lean on it using his arm to support himself, while turning to face Fran and Peter. There is no motivation for a stupid zombie to close the door, in any case. If he did close the door on the other zombies, presumably to allow himself to get first dibs on on the survivors, then that's a sign of planning in itself.

[Trin]

He actually does point quite distinctively with his index finger. And closing the door doesn't seem to be deliberate, he stumbles a little and tries to lean on it using his arm to support himself, while turning to face Fran and Peter. I'm going to have to watch that again. I thought he distinctly closed the door on purpose. So to all the people who say that Land HAS to be taking place after the events in Day BECAUSE of the way Big Daddy has "evolved" and is leading other zombies.....obviously not, as the Flyboy zombie was exhibiting similar characteristics before the events of either movie. Ah, my favorite argument. Feels like an old friend showed up to dinner... and groped my wife while farting on the buffet table. As I stated above, my personal opinion is that Flyboy wasn't that special. But if you really want to go down this path you might consider Cholo in the same light. I know there's some debate over exactly at what point he became a zombie, but if you subscribe to the theory he was a zombie fairly soon after his shot/bite episode, then you have to admit he somehow managed to get from outside the Green all the way into Kaufman's garage without anyone capping him. That's pretty remarkable. Timeline is very difficult where Big Daddy's evolution is concerned. He didn't really evolve per se. He had an epiphany of sorts. One minute he's a gas station attendant who has seemingly been standing around the gas station since the outbreak. The next he's organizing a zombie army. The obvious catalyst for the change was the arrival of the scavengers. But there's no way to tell whether he manned the gas pump for 5 weeks or 5 years. One similarity between Bub and Big Daddy that hasn't really been explored is this. They both had a "wake-up" call from humans displaying cruelty.