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Thread: TWD 2x07 "Pretty Much Dead Already" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

  1. #61
    Twitching Thorn's Avatar
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    I love Rick, it is funny to see how many people hate him. The funny thing is, in the books even more so than the show he hates himself more than anyone else ever could.

    I just do not see him as a bad leader, the lesson I learned from the comics over the years is a lot of the time there is just no right choice. Like they say in War Games the only way to win is not to play.

  2. #62
    Twitching
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    I can't believe I'm saying this but,...
    I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for Shane. In a 30-minute time period he got hammered by some screwed up s**t 3 times rapid-fire. First, Lori hits him with her intentions and position about the baby's paternity in a way that almost seemed DESIGNED to drive him up a wall. Even if you excuse the "even if the baby was yours it will still be Rick's" portion of her statement, the follow-up was pretty much daring him to do something. "And there's nothing you can do about it!" Lori says, grinding salt into Shane's wound. That last part there...well, it's like I said, Lori is all but daring him to do something, ANYTHING about that vindictive little statement.

    Next, Shane stomps away and into the RV. He immediately notices the guns and ammo are gone. I believe, based on what he did when he came back with the bag of guns that he was intending to get back at Rick and Lori both by killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Clearing the barn of Walkers, and at the same time crapping all over Rick's authority and decision-making concerning the handling of Herschel and Herschel's wishes. Having questioned Glenn, Shane quickly discovered who took the guns and how and why they left without being seen. I was glad to see Shane track Dale down, because this was 1 "Dale = Father Knows Best" course of action too far on Dale's part.

    Lastly, Shane is talking to the rest of the group fairly heatedly and, while he's handed out the guns despite Maggie declaring Herschel will kick them out for it, Shane had yet to really DO anything out-of-bounds. Until the final element of "Shane's Perfect Storm" is added to the mix that is. Rick appearing with Herschel and Walkers on catch-poles a) blindsides Shane and the rest of the group AGAIN, and b) demonstrates that far from clearing the barn or even setting about immediately reinforcing it structurally, Rick is on board with putting more Walkers into that rickety barn. It was too much, too fast for Shane IMHO. Does that mean he isn't responsible for what he did? Of course not. He's a grown man and until recently a cop. However, all these screwed-up declarations, decisions and unilateral action are certainly factors of mitigation one needs to look at to really get what was going on with Shane when he lost it.

    Personally, I loved how he double-tapped the female Walker on Herschel's catch-pole and then said "I just double-tapped her, center mass, you tellin me a sick person would be standing after that? Bang, Heart. Bang Lung, and it's still coming!"

    Andrew Lincoln deserves an award for how beautifully he verbally set the actor playing Shane up. When Rick yells "That's enough!" and Shane strides back over and point-blank headshots the Walker as he says "THAT is ENOUGH!" That was powerful and raw stuff. The kind of portrayal that really pulls the audience into the moment with the actors, through their characters.

    The breaching of the barn, and the subsequent Walker-extermination was a foregone conclusion from the moment Rick appeared with Herschel and the Walkers on catch-poles. The sight of an undead Sophia slowly advancing obviously takes center-stage in the scene's climax, but the range of rapidly cycling facial expressions and shifts in body language, PARTICULARLY from Shane the most and Rick a very close second, gave the scene's climax much of its power.

    So yea, Shane was pretty much taking a page from Herschel's, Dale's and (lately) Rick's books and taking action unilaterally, and was certainly acting totally on his own thoughts and feelings without regard to the emotional and/or psychological consequences to/for anyone else, but it certainly isn't so simple as Shane just going buck-wild black-hat for no reason, while everyone else is an innocent bystander. Shane was simply reacting (badly, in some ways) to the SERIOUSLY screwed-up things said and done immediately before he went all Thunderdome on the farm. I really hope we see the others taking responsibility for building the pyre and setting it alight under Shane, but fear he's gonna take the fall for this alone.

    Thoughts? Up until now I had perceived Shane as a man cut adrift whose dark side is overwhelming him. Now, and its unsettling in a way to feel like this, I'm starting to see Shane as a somewhat tragic figure whose messed up decisions/actions have a significant basis in the dysfunctional issues, actions, statements and decisions of other members of the group. Which doesn't even touch on the certain amount of validation for Shane's chosen course established by the discovery of Sophia's fate.

    Shane, responsible..certainly. Powerfully influenced by the bad decisions of others? Most definitely, IMHO.

    As always, conflicting assessments and the thoughts of others are more than welcome.

  3. #63
    Just Married AcesandEights's Avatar
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    Well said, Thorn. I can't fault Ricks humanity, as any commodity or characteristic of that sort that is surrendered too easily in bits and pieces will lead to a full loss of it in short order.

    I like how Rick often gets to where he's going reluctantly, as opposed to diving into the darkness at the first sign of trouble and just using "this is how the world works now" as an excuse. It might be so that the world works that way, but while the people who take to it too easily may have adaptive behaviors, can they really reconcile their easy acceptance of the new shift in their moral compass and still play nice with others without becoming a casualty? I always like to see how fiction approaches these questions.

    -- -------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    I can't believe I'm saying this but,...
    I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for Shane. In a 30-minute time period he got hammered by some screwed up s**t 3 times rapid-fire. First, Lori hits him with her intentions and position about the baby's paternity in a way that almost seemed DESIGNED to drive him up a wall. Even if you excuse the "even if the baby was yours it will still be Rick's" portion of her statement, the follow-up was pretty much daring him to do something. "And there's nothing you can do about it!" Lori says, grinding salt into Shane's wound. That last part there...well, it's like I said, Lori is all but daring him to do something, ANYTHING about that vindictive little statement.
    Yeah, Shane is dealing with way too much to keep everything hammered down as tight as he normally likes to. It'll be interesting to see where the latest events push him and it's nice to have this look at a character who I had erroneously written off so long ago.

    "Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true." --Lord Dunsany

  4. #64
    Twitching krisvds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn View Post
    I love Rick, it is funny to see how many people hate him. The funny thing is, in the books even more so than the show he hates himself more than anyone else ever could.
    I guess you read my 'on with the deconstruction of the sheriff' wrong. Rick's my favourite character. It's just that his totally morally justified decisions get the gang in trouble quite often in the books ... Those are my favourite moments, and make TWD truelly great zombie fiction. Since you read the comics you know what bleak territory he is heading for. I cant wait to see that on tv.

  5. #65
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    Holy shit Wyld. I think i remember you having some VERY VERY strong emotional reactions to Shane last year. Good to see you come around. Thing is, im starting to go the other way. He's right to a certain extent but he's going the wrong way about it. Rick is showing the right way. He's making mistakes but don't forget that he is still relatively new to the apocalypse.
    The body is the instrument on which imagination plays.

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  6. #66
    Being Attacked Mr_Shadow's Avatar
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    Maybe nobody knew Sophia was in the barn. She could of found the barn and tried to hide inside, then got bitten.

  7. #67
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Shadow View Post
    Maybe nobody knew Sophia was in the barn. She could of found the barn and tried to hide inside, then got bitten.
    Already discussed - http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/s...ge4#post275412

    It would have formed a beautiful flashback, showing how ironic her death was. But alas, she would have been heavily mutilated by the walkers in the barn, but she looked fairly untouched!
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

  8. #68
    Walking Dead kidgloves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Already discussed - http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/s...ge4#post275412

    It would have formed a beautiful flashback, showing how ironic her death was. But alas, she would have been heavily mutilated by the walkers in the barn, but she looked fairly untouched!
    © Neil HPOTD

    The body is the instrument on which imagination plays.

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  9. #69
    Twitching Thorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisvds View Post
    I guess you read my 'on with the deconstruction of the sheriff' wrong. Rick's my favourite character. It's just that his totally morally justified decisions get the gang in trouble quite often in the books ... Those are my favourite moments, and make TWD truelly great zombie fiction. Since you read the comics you know what bleak territory he is heading for. I cant wait to see that on tv.

    Yeah maybe a bit, it did seem as if you were looking forward to his coming unhinged. Forgive me if it was not the case, I rather enjoy his characters progression and decent into "madness" if you will. He is just so easy for me to identify with. Father, Wife (who is a whore... I KID I KID Laurie isn't really a whore... my ex is) and one young kid who is around 10. Also the value system, and superman good guy captain fix it approach to things which I am sure would get me in trouble in a ZA situation if I was not able to temper the need to fix things with the need to survive.

    Shane I just hated flat out before and had no use for him as a character, now I love the guy. Not for what he does, or his motivations but because it is a brilliant character that is so well acted. How can you not admire him? He is as was termed a force of nature, you can't control him and his destruction is motivated by many things and if you happen to get in the way of him, well you might just get Ottis'd.

    As to Wyld's post, I am not shocked you like him Wyld he seems like your kind of guy, the one you would put your money on, the guy you could identify with. I am shocked it took you this long to notice it...

    While i kid a bit it is true what you said, the episode was written brilliantly to give him as a character and an actor all the motivation he needed to come unglued. Just an amazing episode, one of the best so far in my opinion.

  10. #70
    Twitching
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    @Kidgloves & Thorn:
    You guys are right. Last season Shane seemed to me utterly repugnant. He'd lied to his best friend's wife about her husband being dead, hadn't hesitated or even demonstrated any awkwardness as he "stepped into Rick's shoes" with Lori and Carl, and then when against all odds Rick turns up alive, Shane came damned close to giving in to the temptation to murder his best friend and partner, a man who trust(ed) him implicitly not only with his (Rick's) own life but that of his wife and only child. The "case" against Shane only seemed to grow more damning last season, as he refused to step aside gracefully and kept pushing his unwanted advances on Lori until he finally attempted to sexually assault her.

    All of which is evidence of the behavior patterns and a moral code there's been no hint of any positive change in this season, and plenty of indications that his dark side is growing stronger. The portrait of a dangerous man, who is willing to cross lines I've shed blood and tears to defend.

    That said, Season 2 has been full to overflowing with both moral ambiguity, and self-justification of actions ranging from the dubious to the morally indefensible on the parts of MANY members of the group. Group members that were (seemingly, we know now) pure as fresh-fallen snow for the entirety of those events depicted in Season 1.

    When you get right down to it, and I've given this a great deal of thought as well as having been part of several very spirited debates about this....The part of Shane I relate/resonate with the most is his vulnerability to moral degradation SPECIFICALLY because of his exposure to decisions ranging from the morally questionable to the outright immoral on the parts of the other members of the group. That's the first half of it. The remaining half of my core empathy for and relating to the Shane character is the unhesitating pragmatism that, combined with his good intent to protect the group in general and Lori & Carl specifically, is paving Shane's personal Road to Hell.

    Dale's right in a way. Shane IS in a lot of ways very well-adapted for survival in the Zombie Apocalypse. What's tragic is that Shane's unique strengths are transmuted into debilitating failings by an environment and relationships over which he has no control. For instance, I believe that Shane would, despite even the burning pain of Lori's most recent rejection of him, lay down his life for Lori and/or Carl without hesitation. He loves them, but extraordinary circumstances have conspired to twist that love and open cracks in it that are being filled in with envy, jealousy and, most of all, bitterness.

    I empathize with anyone who's had the best and most profound experiences of their life turned into a torture of longing and impossible to realize desire. What might Shane have become if Rick had indeed died, and enough time passed for Lori to put her feelings for her late husband into the place of treasured memory, and then move on with life without Rick's ghost between her and Shane? Enough time for their relationship to have become public, and for his relationship as Lori's mate and Carl's father to mature into a bond of enduring strength.

    With all his happiness torn away, survival became more than survival. It became all he had left to define himself by positively. At every turn however, the rules keep changing and that poisonous bitterness has kept on growing as a result.

    Just what IS the threshold of pain, bitterness, and shattered dreams for even a strong man? When the world ends, and nearly all your anchors to honor and self-respect have been sheared away, what price comes due in exchange for the strength to retain your self-control and soldier on...not only for yourself, but for people you perceive as yours to protect even if they've turned away from you?

    I don't admire Shane. I don't put his operating ethos up on a pedestal...but I understand how the pain and bitterness of doing the right thing, yet having it all turn to shit on you could make one's inner beast seem like the only source of warmth left in a world grown cold and uncaring.

  11. #71
    Being Attacked
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    Loved this episode and cant wait til Feb, grrrrrrrr!

    What makes the comics great and what the people in charge do a wonderful job of presenting to us on screen is that they are almost always well written about the people and how this horrible world changes and breaks them down. In real life and in good fiction, no one is ever all good or all bad, books and movies that portray people that way are usually lousy dreck easily seen through and then forgotten. But TWD is showing us people, good people in impossible circumstances, making choices the best way they can and having things still go horribly wrong. As was mentioned above in the comics Rick hates himself for what the wolrd has made him become and I think we can see the beginnings of that here.

    -- -------- Post added at 12:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 AM ----------

    As for Shane? This was such a well acted episode for his character! Watching him get slammed by circumstances right and left, just building steam more and more and more, having to fight it to deal with Carl for a bit but then still going on only to get slammed again. And then just finally, gloriously losing his shit completely! I thought it just rang totally true and was exactly the way I thought he would have reacted, just LOVED his bit with the poled walkers "You think she's a living breathing person? BLAMM "Why is she still up then? BLAMM "Heart" BLAMM "lungs!" I was honestly on the edge of my seat loving it!

    And poor Zofia! How tragic was that and how wonderful were all the reactions of the actors? I honestly dont think anything about showing Herschel he could kill their own people entered into Rick's mind, I think he just felt that it was his fault she was undead and therefore his responsibility to put her down. Of course he had to do what he did but he has still felt responsible for her fate the whole time, even tho he was the only one who went after her and saved her initially,

    Bring on February!

  12. #72
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    I don't understand what was so bad about what Shane did?!
    IMHO, that's what needed to happen. It was the only thing that actually made sense about the whole situation. I don't really see it as though he lost his shit. He was just tired of dealing with such a clusterfuck situation. They weren't allowed to carry their weapons, then he finds out the barn is full of walkers and Rick is helping Hershel put more walkers in it. He was right on all counts. The farm was totally unsafe at that point, and the right thing to do was to leave, really. It was a crazy situation. Rick doesn't want to leave because Lori is pregnant, but he has no problem with her sleeping 100 yards from a rickety old barn that's full of walkers? He's even willing to put more walkers in that same old barn for his pregnant wife to sleep near, in nothing but a tent? And they can't have their weapons on them while all this is happening?!
    Seems like Shane was the only one thinking clearly about the situation.
    Last edited by babomb; 30-Nov-2011 at 06:29 AM. Reason: crash

  13. #73
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    The problem with Shane is that he is a sociopath. Everything he does is only for his benefit or self-preservation and if anyone in the group follows him they will eventually
    end up being expendable like Otis. He would only fit in with something like motorcycle gang from Dawn and it wouldn't surprise me if he was a crooked cop before everything
    happened.

  14. #74
    Walking Dead Legion2213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammich View Post
    The problem with Shane is that he is a sociopath. Everything he does is only for his benefit or self-preservation and if anyone in the group follows him they will eventually
    end up being expendable like Otis. He would only fit in with something like motorcycle gang from Dawn and it wouldn't surprise me if he was a crooked cop before everything
    happened.
    Nail on the head.

    Brilliant character, brilliantly acted by Jon Bernthal...but totally untrustworthy and dodgy as Hell if he was part of your own group in real life.

    Bernthal and the writers have done a great job making him far more than just a cookie cutter, mustache twirling bad guy, but he is still bad news as far as I am concerned.
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

  15. #75
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammich View Post
    The problem with Shane is that he is a sociopath. Everything he does is only for his benefit or self-preservation and if anyone in the group follows him they will eventually
    end up being expendable like Otis. He would only fit in with something like motorcycle gang from Dawn and it wouldn't surprise me if he was a crooked cop before everything
    happened.
    Don't see him as black and white as that. If you think back to his trip to get those medical supplies, that was in no way for his benefit or self-preservation... Quite the opposite.

    I think he simply sees the world for what it has become, rather than what it might be. He therefore is far more black and white and pragmatic in his choices...
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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