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Thread: TWD 2x07 "Pretty Much Dead Already" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

  1. #76
    Feeding shootemindehead's Avatar
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    Shane is a dangerous fecker. If I was Dale, I'd have blown him away.

    No good for the party in general, just like Merle.
    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

  2. #77
    Walking Dead Legion2213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Don't see him as black and white as that. If you think back to his trip to get those medical supplies, that was in no way for his benefit or self-preservation... Quite the opposite.

    I think he simply sees the world for what it has become, rather than what it might be. He therefore is far more black and white and pragmatic in his choices...
    If it had been Sophia needing those supplies, he would have made every excuse under the sun not to go. Saving Carl equaled saving a chance with Lori who he wants...this was all about "gain for Shane" IMO.

    -- -------- Post added at 01:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    Shane is a dangerous fecker. If I was Dale, I'd have blown him away.

    No good for the party in general, just like Merle.
    Absolutely. You would not turn your back on him if he was part of your group...even his best friend Rick has been gazed at through iron sights...
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

  3. #78
    Just Married AcesandEights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammich View Post
    The problem with Shane is that he is a sociopath. Everything he does is only for his benefit or self-preservation and if anyone in the group follows him they will eventually
    end up being expendable like Otis. He would only fit in with something like motorcycle gang from Dawn and it wouldn't surprise me if he was a crooked cop before everything
    happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Legion2213 View Post
    If it had been Sophia needing those supplies, he would have made every excuse under the sun not to go. Saving Carl equaled saving a chance with Lori who he wants...this was all about "gain for Shane" IMO.

    I completely agree with your points, gents. Shane might externally rationalize everything he does to try and sell the rest of the group on going along, but all too often there's very little earnest motivation in his actions when the going gets tough.

    "Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true." --Lord Dunsany

  4. #79
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    Shane's NOT a sociopath,
    A sociopath wouldn't have a flashback to his "evil act" in kneecapping and savagely beating Otis as he gazed in the mirror. A sociopath wouldn't have had a genuine emotional reaction of any kind about what happened, and a sociopath CERTAINLY WOULDN'T have hesitated and been uncomfortable with speaking at Otis's funeral and describing Otis's last moments when asked. By definition, a sociopath is one who FEELS no difference between "good" and "evil" acts. Shane was obviously hesitant to speak of Otis, and when he did he placed Otis's memory above his own achievements. Some might say that's just him camouflaging what he did to Otis, but if that was the case there were plenty of ways he could've painted Otis as other than a hero and still not be seemingly responsible for Otis's death. The most obvious that comes to mind is simply saying Otis couldn't keep up and stay ahead of the Walker horde during a long-distance pursuit. Even Rick saw Otis huffing, puffing, sweating like a waterfall and strawberry red on the run to Herschel's house when Rick was carrying Carl. When Otis dropping back began to slow his run down, Rick interrogated Otis for directions to the farm house and ran on ahead. So there would've been no reason to suspect Shane if he'd said Otis just couldn't keep up the relentless pace required to reach the truck ahead of the Walkers while both men were injured. To a sociopath, either account would have served his self-centered purpose of dodging culpability for Otis's death, but Shane chose to paint Otis as a hero. Why? He recognized Otis's wife needed to believe her husband's death had meaning, and he outright said "If any death ever had meaning, it was his (Otis's). He saved me and Carl both (paraphrasing that last part)." A sociopath wouldn't have intuitively recognized what Otis's wife needed to believe. Yes, a sociopath might have said something somewhat comforting to "maintain his cover" but the emotional nuances of what Otis's widow was going through wouldn't be something a sociopath could or would have recognized, and those emotional nuances wouldn't choke up a sociopath (even if it was all about him).

    Shane has serious problems, but a sociopath he is not. Homicidal under the right circumstances? Absolutely. Prioritizing himself before individuals he has little to no connection or emotional investment in? Definitely.

    I also agree that what Shane did concerning the Walkers in the barn and the pair on the catch-poles was an inevitable result of Rick's failure to meaningfully address the ongoing danger posed by that old barn. There was that great scene before all the handing out of guns, breaching of the barn and shooting went down. Shane got up close and personal with the barn. Seeing what he could see of the number and size of the Walkers in the barn through a gap in its slats, and comprehensively testing the barn's security measures in a hands-on manner. Shane was genuinely seeking information about the barn's condition, and therefore how serious or potentially imminent the dangers posed by the Walkers inside really is. If you watch closely, Shane's ENTIRE DEMEANOR changes when the barn doors bulge outward several inches with only a portion of the Walkers he (Shane) could see through that gap in the slats pushing against the barn doors from the inside.

    Can anyone here honestly say they wouldn't be up in arms about having to sleep less than a hundred yards from that EXTREMELY weathered barn? After having gone through the terrifying attack at their previous camp?

    Shane's reactions were understandable, if nothing else. First, he waits to see what Rick is going to do about Glenn's announcement concerning the Walkers in the barn. When Rick says he's going to go talk to Herschel about the issue, Shane waits for Rick's return passively. When Rick returns, Shane (very understandably) wants to know the result of Rick's conversation with Herschel. Despite receiving a very ambiguous answer from Rick, Shane still demonstrates his willingness to follow Rick's lead as he then asks Rick "So, what now?" Rick's intentions were good, but he basically left Shane hanging there without much of an answer. Then Rick goes off with Herschel, without saying anything to anyone in the group concerning where he's going or what he's doing.

    It's after all this that Lori and Shane have that ugly and seriously f**k'd up conversation about the paternity of her baby on the way. Only in the wake of that mess does Shane finally decide to act independently of Rick. Which is when he discovers the hyper-control-freak move Dale has pulled with the guns and ammo. Again I say, after retrieving said guns, Shane does nothing more than arm the group and talk about the ongoing danger of the Walkers in the barn "a stone's throw from where they sleep."

    It's only after witnessing Rick taking actions that UNEQUIVOCALLY declare where Rick stands on the danger of the Walkers in the barn that Shane forces the issue. Obviously the majority of the group didn't think his little anatomical show and tell on the nature of the Undead via firearm was unacceptable. Nor did we hear anyone but Rick and maybe Lori or Herschel's people vocalize an objection to his actions in breaching the barn. As many others have pointed out, but for Shane forcing the issue here, more injuries and/or fatalities could've been caused by the continuation of the doomed search for Sophia.

    Was what Shane did tactless and undiplomatic? Sure. Was it wrong and/or "crazy" that he did so? I don't believe so. If a person believes a potentially imminent threat to their life and the lives of others exist, and every alternative save taking action directly has been blocked, what's immoral about taking a definitively final course of action to neutralize that threat? It wouldn't have even been unreasonable position to believe the Walkers in the barn might very well have been released in an uncontrolled manner by the obviously imminent attempt to add more Walkers to said barn.

    So, what exactly was unstable or dysfunctional about Shane's reactions under those circumstances? Keeping in mind I'm NOT saying his chosen course was the IDEAL response, just not crazy and/or irrational.

    As always, differing opinions and points-of-view are more than welcome.

  5. #80
    Walking Dead Legion2213's Avatar
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    Wyld there is a simple difference between Shane and the others in the group especially Rick.

    None of the others would murder me for their own gain, Shane would and he'd do it without hesitation, he might feel a wee bit sorry about it afterwards, but it wouldn't help me lying six feet under or being gutted by walkers with a sneaky bullet in my kneecap while he makes off, for Gods sake man, he was about to murder his best friend in cold blood until Dale came along. Shane cares about Shane and about what Shane wants. If he isn't a sociopath he is hairs breadth away from one.

    He simply cannot be trusted.
    Last edited by Legion2213; 30-Nov-2011 at 03:26 PM. Reason: .
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

  6. #81
    Twitching krisvds's Avatar
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    The fact that Shane isn't a stereotypical 'bad' guy is another big plus for this series. Ethically ambiguous, he seems to be on a path leading to insanity. The whole zombiegeddon is bringing out the worst in him and he can't keep the animal under control. He's definitely dangerous. And he is an opportunist, choosing what is obviously 'ethically wrong' to please his own needs with little to no regard for principle. This will only get worse in the second half of this season i suppose. If I were Dale I would watch my back.

  7. #82
    Walking Dead kidgloves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion2213 View Post
    Wyld there is a simple difference between Shane and the others in the group especially Rick.

    None of the others would murder me for their own gain, Shane would and he'd do it without hesitation, he might feel a wee bit sorry about it afterwards, but it wouldn't help me lying six feet under or being gutted by walkers with a sneaky bullet in my kneecap while he makes off, for Gods sake man, he was about to murder his best friend in cold blood until Dale came along. Shane cares about Shane and about what Shane wants. If he isn't a sociopath he is hairs breadth away from one.

    He simply cannot be trusted.
    Shane wasn't about to murder Rick. Rick walked into his sights, Shane hesitated then dropped his aim and turned to see Dale. Thats completely different Legion.

    He definately wouldn't risk himself for the others though. In season 1 Lori argues with him about putting signs on the highway and he's resistant to that. He also didn't want to even entertain the idea of trying to rescue the group when they were trapped in the building in episode 2. Its all about Shane when it boils down to it
    The body is the instrument on which imagination plays.

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  8. #83
    Walking Dead Legion2213's Avatar
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    Kid, he tracks him for around 16 seconds and gets a murderous look on his face then drops his gun barrell (yes, I did just check to be sure).

    Sorry mate, the intent and the thought was there...he seriously considered murdering his best friend and partner.

    This Shane isn't the Shane who tried to carry his buddy out of the hospital back at the begining of the apocalypse...he is changed and he is dangerous. If you aren't Lori or Carl you are simply an obsticle to be disposed of, everybody is expendable now, even his best friend.
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

  9. #84
    Just Married AcesandEights's Avatar
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    With all hat said, does anyone think they might pull a self-redeeming death out for Shane at some point?

    "Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true." --Lord Dunsany

  10. #85
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    Maybe. I kinda hope so, but I still don't like Shane at all. Maybe I'm too judgmental.

    PS: I'm not on here a lot because of other things... My girlfriend, school, grimdark ponies...

  11. #86
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    No; Short of growing fangs and sprouting claws I think Shane will turn into a diabolical madman. They will have to put him down like a mad dog.

  12. #87
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    He definately wouldn't risk himself for the others though. In season 1 Lori argues with him about putting signs on the highway and he's resistant to that. He also didn't want to even entertain the idea of trying to rescue the group when they were trapped in the building in episode 2. Its all about Shane when it boils down to it
    He risked himself searching that housing complex with Andrea, they were looking for Sophia too. It wasn't until after they returned that Shane decided the search was too costly. If he felt it was merely too costly for his own liking as it pertained specifically to him, then he could've simply refused to take part in future searches. But instead he speaks to the safety of the group as a whole in relation to the search(that almost killed Daryl) for a girl that is most likely already dead. And he was right about that. He also takes part in the planning for the searches on more than 1 occasion. I don't think it's as B/W as others seem to think.

  13. #88
    Walking Dead kidgloves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babomb View Post
    He risked himself searching that housing complex with Andrea, they were looking for Sophia too. It wasn't until after they returned that Shane decided the search was too costly. If he felt it was merely too costly for his own liking as it pertained specifically to him, then he could've simply refused to take part in future searches. But instead he speaks to the safety of the group as a whole in relation to the search(that almost killed Daryl) for a girl that is most likely already dead. And he was right about that. He also takes part in the planning for the searches on more than 1 occasion. I don't think it's as B/W as others seem to think.
    The housing complex wasn't really about "Zophia" İMZ. It was about Andrea and didn't Shane get some tail as a result of it?
    The body is the instrument on which imagination plays.

    MY HOME CINEMA

  14. #89
    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidgloves View Post
    The housing complex wasn't really about "Zophia" İMZ.


    Quote Originally Posted by kidgloves View Post
    It was about Andrea and didn't Shane get some tail as a result of it?
    I'd say he was reluctant to search that housing estate, and I too saw it as more important thematically for other reasons - mainly bringing about 'The Andrea-nator' with her gun skills, and showing the push/pull between Andrea and Shane in regards to pragmatism and how far it should really go in this world ... and yes, he certainly did get lucky. I'd wager I'm not the only one who did a double-take when Andrea grabbed his semi-on.

    This is all rather delicious character stuff - I think with all this, we've got an excellent 6 episodes ahead of us come February!

  15. #90
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    I think it's fair to say that most men thought "damn, I wish she was molesting me" at that crotch-grabbing moment.

    Role on Febuary!
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

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