TWD 3x01 "Seed" episode discussion **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Wyldwraith]

I agree, And while im willing to forgive much since zombies feel no pain and have no concern for shattering numerous teeth, going through blue-jeans denim like it's a paper hospital gown...and doing it so OBVIOUSLY because the Walker comes away with a neat bite-sized chunk which includes the denim....That scene IS important, because a significant character is dramatically impacted by said Walker's behavior. This is a bit more pivotal than our Season 1 debates on lurching-run-speed zombies. I got the exact same "trap sprung" vibe, like it was an automatic reaction that required no processing or coordination when it comes to that entire attack sequence. As others have said, there were a variety of easily-implemented and much more believable explanations they could have written in regarding Herschel. I just don't want to see it become a trend. I'm totally ok with Walkers being "stunned" for a few seconds before they begin to act again when headshot, but not sufficiently enough to terminate them, and I loved the tank-zombie hibernating scene too. The thing is, TWD is about caring about the human characters. So if you do something obvious enough it can draw the viewer's actual attention away from the consequences of the event being witnessed onscreen, it's officially gone from being a minor nitpick to bad direction IMO. After all, no one had a gun to said director's head. They could have just done a re-shoot of those few seconds of the sequence. I mean, take a Season 2 example. Carl messing with the mired-in zombie that subsequently tears itself free, almost gets Carl, and ends up being the Walker that takes out Dale. Would you care if the Walker struggles as Carl watched it looked deliberately ineffectual, and when it was time for it to "break free of the mud" the ground parted with the ease of perforated paper being torn? I think most people would. The attack on Herschel is no different, nor any less significant IMO. That, and I actually like Herschel-the-character these days.

[krisvds]

So, TWD is back with a healthy mix of good/bad. Some of the dialogue (what little there was in this episode) is still very stilted. And the lightning reflexes zombie biting Herschel was just lazy. I'm still concerned about Michone as well: all that samurai bullshit was annoying in the comics and with their new found focus on action that might become a bit of a problem here as well. Michone should be more than adolescent fan service. I guess we'll see in the next few episodes when things settle down and there's more room for drama. Apart from that; great set design on the prison. Very atmospheric. Some great gags and stellar F/X & make up work. Promising first episode.

[bassman]

Of course it's normal to have issues with any show or movie, but I find it hilarious how fans are picking TWD apart to it's absolute core. After all, we're talking about a ZOMBIE TV SHOW. This is something we craved and never thought would happen. Anyone else remember the nineties when there was no zombie movies or media at all? We're riding a high wave of zombie fandom and all we can muster up is complaints. The geeks have indeed inherited the Earth....

[krisvds]

Well, I like the show, a lot. Doesn't make me blind to some of it's shortcomings. That has little to do with nitpicking. Unless you count characterisation and dialogue as unimportant? Still, don't get me wrong, fantastic show.

[kidgloves]

Of course it's normal to have issues with any show or movie, but I find it hilarious how fans are picking TWD apart to it's absolute core. After all, we're talking about a ZOMBIE TV SHOW. This is something we craved and never thought would happen. Anyone else remember the nineties when there was no zombie movies or media at all? We're riding a high wave of zombie fandom and all we can muster up is complaints. The geeks have indeed inherited the Earth.... This. People also have to remember that the tv production process is much much faster than movies. Each episode is shot in 8 days so you have to let some things fly.

[rongravy]

Finding Michonne's double decapitation a bit silly, but the only real gripe I've had so far the whole series is the smell episode. I can overlook alot of things, but that was something that bothered me. Glad it hasn't been broken back out in full force again.

[MinionZombie]

This. People also have to remember that the tv production process is much much faster than movies. Each episode is shot in 8 days so you have to let some things fly. ^^^ This too. I'm with Bassman and kidgloves. Yes, a nitpick can be pointed out in a "would be even better in future, if..." context, but the sheer nitpickiness sometimes does get a bit overcooked. In terms of the wider issue of having a zombie TV show, that's actually ruddy excellent to boot - as a zedhead, I'm absolutely overjoyed. It's my favourite show on the tellybox right now, and it's pretty much the only show that elicits total and utter, unadulterated excitement from me. There are very few shows out there that I've simply got to see right now, and TWD is right at the top of the pile in that regard. I love the writing on the show too. I'm trying to get into the screenwriting game myself at the moment, and I do marvel at the development of the show's scripts, tracking character motivations, how they create and build tension, and how they keep pushing their characters into increasingly "omg" territory. "Seed" was one of the most efficient TWD scripts there has been thus far - an impressive feat, keeping so much information flowing so quickly, but maintaining it all so that it made sense and had a damn-near constant sense of propulsion. The speed of the script matched the urgency of the characters in the show - we've got to find a place to stay, we've got to clear out that first area, we've got to clear out this part of the yard, we've got to clear out that cellblock, we've got to find food and medicine, and we've got to get the hell away from those corridors full of ruddy zombies!!! To maintain that sense of propulsion alone is fascinating and gets the big thumbs up from me. The further I get into screenwriting, the more I find in TWD (as it continues to grow) that impresses me to no end. Before someone says I'm a fanboy gusher or something, I still recognise the odd problem here and there, now and then, but they also need to be taken within the aforementioned context. To pull off a fantastic show that goes from strength-to-strength, while continually seeking to better it, is a feat in itself. To have a mere couple of quibbles (such as the reaction of a single zombie extra) within this entire production, should be seen in the greater context a little bit more ... what was that saying about trees and forrests?

[krisvds]

But, but, but, ... Again, I love this show. A lot. It's the best thing that has happened to this genre in a long long time (apart from The Dead). I haven't missed a single episode and really enjoy the suspense, the make up, the comic book antics, etcaetera. But seriously, some of the praise you guys are heaping onto this show is a little over the top. What about how some of these characters are written? Shane and Lori's motivations were all over the shop last season. That's not ambiguity in characterisation, that's sloppyness. The disregard for some of the rules in a zombie infested world are especially annoying. Remember the dead people in the car wrecks in the pilot of season 2? Nitpicking? Give me a break. It's not rocket science: if you die you come back. Some of the shit in this show has to be explained in a frickin' talkshow. By the way, the lightning reflexes zombie of this episode wasn't the first of it's kind either. Remember Dale? Every time a major character gets bitten it's cheapo jump scare time! NOTLD rules? Not quite. Now what this episode brought back that was long missing in this series is an overall sense of dread. Even the biggest fans of this show must surely admit that last season, things got really cosy at times.

[Wyldwraith]

I too love this show, When I criticize something, it falls into one of two categories. Nitpicking, which are generally things I mention once or twice in passing, and then things happening with/to major characters in such a way that the flaw in the process made me keenly AWARE that it IS a process, instead of being immersed in the story. This threshold is different for everyone. Again, no argument. However, I say again that if something happens in the show that immediately causes you to be thinking of a shot/scene in terms of being a shot or scene rather than narrative involving three dimensional people it IS a problem, because the difference between good and great survival horror is maintaining the viewer/reader's immersion in the storyline continually. For those of you more familiar with the technical side of things, regardless whether an episode is shot in 8 days, each scene is viewed by professionals who have been doing this for some time repeatedly. A viewer may only see a particular scene once, and if it jars us, it SHOULD jar those who are watching it piecemeal as a work-in-progress rather than sitting down to enjoy a piece of entertaining television programming. I will freely praise the season 3 premiere in that the characterization was much improved over last season, to the extent that much was readily apparent in just one episode. I also felt that much of the camerawork was better, in that it shifted to more interesting/eyecatching angles much more frequently than the show had so far. You must take the good with the bad in anything, but if we're going to discuss these episodes then points made should be considered on their individual merits instead of triggering a defensive reaction as if someone is insinuating TWD isnt a great show the vast majority enjoy a great deal. In that context, like everyone else I have my favorite characters...characters that I root for their survival and prosperity. That the show generates/elicits such feelings is a testament to its greatness, but one last time. If something is going to involve the death/near death/permanent maiming of a major character I want to be hit with an "Oh DAMN! I did NOT see that coming! Crap, what now?" reaction, instead of being suddenly pulled from deep plot immersion by a bad few seconds shooting all the more conspicuous for the high quality of the narrative/scene setup on either side of the Herschel Walker attack. That sort of jarring FOR ME caused me to be viewing the remainder of the premier as a series of actors acting out a script in a setting, rather than as a narrative I was invested in and "right there with" the characters from moment to moment. I just don't want that sort of jarring to become more commonplace, especially now that the bulk of the group is routinely going in hand-to-hand versus numerous Walkers and thereby raising the "no one is safe for a moment" risk to new highs. It's a pitfall that right now is for the most part a rare fluke, but one that COULD grow if quality standards arent rigorously maintained. That's all I meant.

[Ragnarr]

The way I would have handled the Herschel bite scene would be more of Herschel tripping over an already crawling zed in the dark hallway, and Herschel then trying to scramble away from the crawler until ultimately bitten. A little bit more of an "oh shit" moment for the viewers I'd think.

[MinionZombie]

Another way of doing it could have been thusly: Hershel hears a noise, stops and listens - he just so happens to be standing right beside that stoic walker (as already is the case) - the walker grabs onto him, he reacts and pulls away, twisting around at the same time - he falls down with a big old thud in a way that would be very painful and confuse you momentarily ... in the course of this, his trousers have torn away around his lower leg, and the walker has held onto him and kind of been pulled along a bit - it bites his exposed leg. Now - that would require more shots, and perhaps they were fighting time, who knows ... but just another possibility. Nothing major though. I had more of a struggle with the fence climbing walkers in season one.

[bungi43]

Finding Michonne's double decapitation a bit silly, but the only real gripe I've had so far the whole series is the smell episode. I can overlook alot of things, but that was something that bothered me. Glad it hasn't been broken back out in full force again. The smell thing didn't bother me so much. I just don't think it should've been the primary focus, but I think the idea of rotting flesh and that's how walkers get SOME of their discernment to the living...yeah.

[kidgloves]

I too love this show, When I criticize something, it falls into one of two categories. Nitpicking, which are generally things I mention once or twice in passing, and then things happening with/to major characters in such a way that the flaw in the process made me keenly AWARE that it IS a process, instead of being immersed in the story. This threshold is different for everyone. Again, no argument. However, I say again that if something happens in the show that immediately causes you to be thinking of a shot/scene in terms of being a shot or scene rather than narrative involving three dimensional people it IS a problem, because the difference between good and great survival horror is maintaining the viewer/reader's immersion in the storyline continually. For those of you more familiar with the technical side of things, regardless whether an episode is shot in 8 days, each scene is viewed by professionals who have been doing this for some time repeatedly. A viewer may only see a particular scene once, and if it jars us, it SHOULD jar those who are watching it piecemeal as a work-in-progress rather than sitting down to enjoy a piece of entertaining television programming. I will freely praise the season 3 premiere in that the characterization was much improved over last season, to the extent that much was readily apparent in just one episode. I also felt that much of the camerawork was better, in that it shifted to more interesting/eyecatching angles much more frequently than the show had so far. You must take the good with the bad in anything, but if we're going to discuss these episodes then points made should be considered on their individual merits instead of triggering a defensive reaction as if someone is insinuating TWD isnt a great show the vast majority enjoy a great deal. In that context, like everyone else I have my favorite characters...characters that I root for their survival and prosperity. That the show generates/elicits such feelings is a testament to its greatness, but one last time. If something is going to involve the death/near death/permanent maiming of a major character I want to be hit with an "Oh DAMN! I did NOT see that coming! Crap, what now?" reaction, instead of being suddenly pulled from deep plot immersion by a bad few seconds shooting all the more conspicuous for the high quality of the narrative/scene setup on either side of the Herschel Walker attack. That sort of jarring FOR ME caused me to be viewing the remainder of the premier as a series of actors acting out a script in a setting, rather than as a narrative I was invested in and "right there with" the characters from moment to moment. I just don't want that sort of jarring to become more commonplace, especially now that the bulk of the group is routinely going in hand-to-hand versus numerous Walkers and thereby raising the "no one is safe for a moment" risk to new highs. It's a pitfall that right now is for the most part a rare fluke, but one that COULD grow if quality standards arent rigorously maintained. That's all I meant. Great to see you back onboard Wyld. I really enjoy reading your posts about TWD. We did tell you that you should hang on for season 3 and that it would be more to your liking once the Rictatorship was in full swing.

[AcesandEights]

Great to see you back onboard Wyld. I really enjoy reading your posts about TWD. We did tell you that you should hang on for season 3 and that it would be more to your liking once the Rictatorship was in full swing. But be forewarned: I am still going to blame everything on Shane! - - - Updated - - - The smell thing didn't bother me so much. I just don't think it should've been the primary focus, but I think the idea of rotting flesh and that's how walkers get SOME of their discernment to the living...yeah. Pretty much on target with how I felt about it. Didn't bother me too much and I liked the way it was implemented for Michonne's 'pets', as opposed to season 1 where they lathered up in the dude's entrails.

[rongravy]

Pretty much on target with how I felt about it. Didn't bother me too much and I liked the way it was implemented for Michonne's 'pets', as opposed to season 1 where they lathered up in the dude's entrails. Ehhhh, I would think their own stench would mask the smell of any living person. I mean, they are walking blood and gut pinatas... What, zombies can't smell their own funk?!?