TWD 2x07 "Pretty Much Dead Already" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Wyldwraith]

Oh come on now, What Shane did regarding Andrea was probably some of the most altruistic behavior we've seen out of him in ages. He didn't have to work with her 1-on-1 about her shooting, and when it became clear he'd crossed the line he apologized and offered Andrea exactly the sort of opportunity she wanted. Then, when her gun jams Shane caps the Walker that's too close to her, calmly tells her to clear the jam, and instead of treating her like a defenseless dependent, Shane made it clear verbally and physically that he was covering her and pushed her outside of her comfort zone by offering her the responsibility to defend herself on her own behalf. A CLASSIC example of the old saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime." Had Andrea proven unable to either clear the jammed round or subsequently take down the approaching Walker (which Shane had a bead on as well), Shane would've put the Walker down and finished clearing them a path to their vehicle/escape. As a result of Shane expecting Andrea to take care of business herself, Andrea discovered a previously unknown capacity to focus and react effectively under life-or-death pressure. The sex was a spontaneous result of the "rush" brought on by victory and achievement on Andrea's part. Not to mention that the sexual overture was 100% Andrea's doing, and something that took Shane completely by surprise as he was driving. Surely no one here believes that what went down after the shootout at the housing subdivision was some sort of Uber-Machiavellian master plan on Shane's part to score a piece from Andrea? Shane just isn't that smart and/or foresighted. I think it's going more than a bit too far to say Shane doesn't care in any manner for members of the group that aren't Lori and Carl. They're definitely his core focus, but I think there's more to Shane than just his focus on Lori and Carl.

[AcesandEights]

Shane wouldn't be as interesting a character as he's turned out to be if he was bereft of all humanity. No, the window dressing is still up and maybe some of the pictures haven't been packed up in boxes yet, but the furniture is already halfway out the door. Hop on the metaphor train!

[sandrock74]

With all hat said, does anyone think they might pull a self-redeeming death out for Shane at some point? I don't think thats out of the question. I can see Shane having some sort of last minute "realization" (maybe even feeling a need/desire to atone for Otis' death) and sacrifice himself so the others - specifically Lori and Carl - can live on. Remember, in life, no one thinks that they are the bad guy...even if they are. I'm reminded of a saying, in comicbooks, no group of villains would actually call themselves "The Masters of Evil" or "The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants". Shane could go down in a blaze of glory for all the wrong reasons, thinking himself being the hero. Would that make up for his past misdeeds? Should he then be thought of as having been a swell guy? I dunno. Human nature is weird!

[Sammich]

Didn't Shane say something to the effect that this is "his type of world" now and Rick's adherence to humanity (i.e. compassion and empathy) are useless and dangerous? Shane's acts of remorse are superficial and he quickly reverts back to rationalizations. Compare that to Rick blaming himself about Sophia's disappearance and insistance on continuing the search for her even though he knew deep down she was most likely dead. Dale being the oldest guy in the group, most likely has had his own dealings with psychopaths and sociopaths through the years and is how he can see right though Shane's facade. Just from personal experience, once one experiences first hand exactly how vicious, manipulative and superficial these types of people one will never forget it. I have a feeling that in a twist of irony Shane is going to die similar to the way Otis did, giving the group time to get out of a perilous situation, only it will be due to his own selfishness that gets him in the situation instead of a heroic act.

[acealive1]

people are calling shane crazy and whatever else......but how would you act if the world went to shit in a weeks time?

[Thorn]

people are calling shane crazy and whatever else......but how would you act if the world went to shit in a weeks time? No one knows. That said I like to think I would act more like Rick and less like Shane There is value in each man however.

[AcesandEights]

how would you act if the world went to shit in a weeks time? I would knock up my best friend's wife. Think about killing my best friend when he inconveniently turned out to be alive. Murder a well-meaning person I just met to save my own skin and then lie about it. Contemplate violent property seizure of someone who had opened their home to me. Maybe have a meltdown and suddenly force an issue with some impromptu violence to put people's lives at risk...you know...to save them. Then call it a week. I don't think many people could probably survive a long time in an end of the world situation (in which they are unable to be highly isolated) without accumulating a laundry list of deeds that qualify as things "no one should have to do", but Shane seems to be ahead of the curve at these sorts of things and seemingly excels at casually embracing violence & amoral means to reach his ends, because "that's not the way the world works anymore" (which really means he can now get away with it).

[Wyldwraith]

I don't think Shane is getting a fair shake here, Damn him for his misdeeds, but its a bridge too far to damn him for what he MIGHT have done. Does considering an evil act equal the commission of said act? Of course not. Though I can understand how it can give people pause and color their perceptions of Shane. It certainly colors MY view of the man. HOWEVER, TWD isn't nearly as simple as Rick = White Hat, Shane = Black Hat. If it was it wouldn't be nearly the show it's turned out to be. Though the point about villains not thinking of themselves as villains is well taken. I wouldn't be so quick to laud Rick for his insistence to continue a search that nearly killed both his son AND one of their group's most valuable members. It's easy to forget that Shane's actions are also demonstrative of Rick's bad call resulting in serious trouble for the group. IMHO, NEITHER Rick or Shane are exemplars of ideal leaders in a post-apocalyptic environment. I think people are too quick to give Rick a free pass on the fallout of his mistakes because they agree with his moral ethos. What would we be saying if Rick had never come back, Sophia had still gone missing when the Walker herd came through and say, Daryl or Dale had been the bulldogs advocating the continuation of the search indefinitely? You know, it's not like anyone is saying that Shane's meltdown during the finale is some sterling example of morality. Just that it's a viable, UNDERSTANDABLE, reaction to a series of external pressures. Finally, I don't believe it's a fair assessment of the man Shane is (flaws and all) to try and stretch his murderously prioritizing his own life and that of Carl into a contention that Shane would kill members of their group as he killed Otis. First, in the privacy of the bathroom the man was obviously being affected by the emotional fallout of what he'd done. Next, let's not forget that people OFTEN do things they wouldn't so much as DREAM of being capable of when hideous imminent death is bearing down on one. We can't know what was in Shane's mind when he did what he did to Otis. Maybe (and this isn't an attempt to excuse the murder he committed) Shane was thinking "because of this fat a-hole me and Carl are BOTH going to die." Or he could have been thinking any number of other things. What would you say if Shane truly, to the core of his being, believed his only available choices were a) He, Otis and Carl all die, and Rick/Lori are left utterly broken (we already know that Lori thinks about the bad feeling she had about letting Rick take Carl on the search for Sophia, and what happened to Carl as a result)...what effect would such thinking have had on Lori (and by extension Rick) had Carl perished? Or b) Shane does what he did to Otis and 2 out of 3 of the lives in physical jeopardy, plus the 2 lives in emotional and psychological jeopardy survive. Not talking about the objective reality of the situation Shane and Otis were in, just how Shane perceived that reality. If Shane was really the conduit of total darkness some believe him to be, why didn't he just do away with Dale while they were alone? They were in a swamp after all....plenty of ways to make his death look like something other than Murder-by-Shane. I see Shane as a man equally in both light and shadow...and the shadows seem to be intensifying.

[sandrock74]

If Shane was really the conduit of total darkness some believe him to be, why didn't he just do away with Dale while they were alone? They were in a swamp after all....plenty of ways to make his death look like something other than Murder-by-Shane. Because, Dale was holding a loaded rifle and Shane was unarmed. Dale wouldn't shoot Shane in cold-blooded murder, but I'm sure he would if Shane made a threatening move towards him. That's the difference between murder and self-defense! Even after Shane grabbed the sack of guns, Dale could have easily blown him away if Shane began to rummage thru it while muttering, "I'm gonna get you!"...so Shane had no real choice other than to grab the sack o' guns and split peacefully. I think him not killing Dale was just that. Of course, he may not have wanted to come up with some complex story of how the Predator showed up and took Dale away. (by the way, I love the "Murder-by-Shane" label!)

[babomb]

because "that's not the way the world works anymore" (which really means he can now get away with it). I don't think that's quite what he meant actually. That would imply that before the end he would've liked to be able to do these things but was unable to. I don't think he's quite that despicable of a human being. -- -------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 AM ---------- Because, Dale was holding a loaded rifle and Shane was unarmed. Dale wouldn't shoot Shane in cold-blooded murder, but I'm sure he would if Shane made a threatening move towards him. That's the difference between murder and self-defense! Even after Shane grabbed the sack of guns, Dale could have easily blown him away if Shane began to rummage thru it while muttering, "I'm gonna get you!"...so Shane had no real choice other than to grab the sack o' guns and split peacefully. I think him not killing Dale was just that. Of course, he may not have wanted to come up with some complex story of how the Predator showed up and took Dale away. (by the way, I love the "Murder-by-Shane" label!) Dale wasn't about to do anything. Shane could've killed the old guy with his bare hands and nobody would've known a thing for certain. Dale has a hunting rifle with a bolt action. He had the ability to get 1 shot off. Once Shane got face to face with him Dale no longer had the upper hand(not that he actually ever had the upper hand to begin with). Shane could've easily avoided that single shot and taken Dale out. So IMO, that's not why Shane made the decision not to do anything to Dale.

[toxic]

Otis finding the girl doesn't really work too well, though I suppose it is possible. The thing is that the last episode made it sound like they only wrangled zombies that had wandered onto their property. It's unlikely Sophia would have been zombified and then made a beeline to the farm, at least in the short time between her getting lost and and when they found Otis. More likely Herschel or one of his people found her, but because they knew Rick and Shane would want to kill her, they kept her secret because they thought they were saving her life. Most likely they didn't especially plan on having her in the barn but then decided it would be a really cool mid-season twist and realized that they might as well put her in the barn.

[AcesandEights]

I don't think Shane is getting a fair shake here To me it's about prevalence and ease of falling into the behavior we've seen. Someone doing one of those things in a short time in the given circumstances can more easily fall back on the hey it's crazy days out there in the wild defense, but Shane has been written to be this character who falls ass backwards into morally questionable or amoral decisions.

[Thorn]

I would knock up my best friend's wife. Think about killing my best friend when he inconveniently turned out to be alive. Murder a well-meaning person I just met to save my own skin and then lie about it. Contemplate violent property seizure of someone who had opened their home to me. Maybe have a meltdown and suddenly force an issue with some impromptu violence to put people's lives at risk...you know...to save them. Then call it a week. I don't think many people could probably survive a long time in an end of the world situation (in which they are unable to be highly isolated) without accumulating a laundry list of deeds that qualify as things "no one should have to do", but Shane seems to be ahead of the curve at these sorts of things and seemingly excels at casually embracing violence & amoral means to justify his ends, because "that's not the way the world works anymore" (which really means he can now get away with it). Dear god this was hysterical. -- -------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 AM ---------- Otis finding the girl doesn't really work too well, though I suppose it is possible. The thing is that the last episode made it sound like they only wrangled zombies that had wandered onto their property. It's unlikely Sophia would have been zombified and then made a beeline to the farm, at least in the short time between her getting lost and and when they found Otis. More likely Herschel or one of his people found her, but because they knew Rick and Shane would want to kill her, they kept her secret because they thought they were saving her life. Most likely they didn't especially plan on having her in the barn but then decided it would be a really cool mid-season twist and realized that they might as well put her in the barn. For the third time it has been confirmed by Kirkman Otis found the girl, and no one else had knowledge of it. She could have been bit and ran as fast as she could and that led her along the stream towards the farm where she got stuck in the mud. Works fine for me.

[Neil]

Yeeeah, now that's what's up! Loved that ending and Shane going off like that was just awesome. I'm gonna assume Hershel knew about the little girl and didn't want to say anything. Imagine if Hershel or someone else on the farm was somehow involved in her death?

[krisvds]

Imagine if Hershel or someone else on the farm was somehow involved in her death? Hmmm. Would make for a cool twist. But didn't she have bitemarks? i would assume she got bitten out in the woods by one of the undead we saw in earlier episodes, shambled into the bog, got found by Otis.