TWD 2x12 "Better Angels" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Thorn]

well wouldnt u do the same thing to someone like randall? -- -------- Post added at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ---------- so who's responsible for him going crazy and being killed? himself or lori? No one is to blame for his insanity, he went crazy that is all there is to it. Bad things are done to people all the time time, people don't always go crazy and start hurting others... Shane went down a road he went down for whatever reasons but blaming someone else for his "insanity" to me seems wrong. A lot of it was situational, and a lot of it was internal, and a lot of it was human involvement. There is no one thing.

[shootemindehead]

Where does the title of the episode come from? Probably the "Better Angels of our nature" quote from Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address. "I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

[acealive1]

No one is to blame for his insanity, he went crazy that is all there is to it. Bad things are done to people all the time time, people don't always go crazy and start hurting others... Shane went down a road he went down for whatever reasons but blaming someone else for his "insanity" to me seems wrong. A lot of it was situational, and a lot of it was internal, and a lot of it was human involvement. There is no one thing. so lets say him and lori never got it done.....i seriously doubt he ever goes crazy, kills otis and gets killed by rick.

[AcesandEights]

[Thorn]

Probably the "Better Angels of our nature" quote from Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address. "I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature." Agreed and this is an amazing quote and loved it in the title of the show. As to Shane going crazy maybe you are right that doesn't make it anyone's fault, just like Lori elected to have sex with Shane he elected to have sex with her. She can not be blamed for his failings or illnesses, weaknesses, or afflictions.

[rightwing401]

Lori may not have been ultimately responsible for Shane's loss of sanity, but you have to admit that she played one hell of a hand in finally pushing him over the edge. Keep in mind, he already ranted to her about how Rick wasn't really supposed to come back and how she and him were destined to be together... And this episode she decides that the best thing to tell him when confronting him about the issue of their repeated romps in the hay and her not knowing who's the little bun in the oven's daddy is to essentially say that what she and Shane had while they were together and Rick wasn't there was a real thing? Just what the hell did she think he was going to take away from that little confession? Gee, did it cross her mind that Shane just might interpret that as they would still be a 'loving family' if Rick had stayed out of the picture, instead of not only loosing all of that but having everything you lost being waved right under your nose on a daily basis? And that maybe, just maybe, in his now really warped mind, if Rick 'goes', then he could get all that back instead of braving this horrible new world all alone.

[Neil]

...I'm sure it's already been covered in the thread, but of course now the group knows that anyone who dies, comes back...

[Thorn]

Lori may not have been ultimately responsible for Shane's loss of sanity, but you have to admit that she played one hell of a hand in finally pushing him over the edge. Keep in mind, he already ranted to her about how Rick wasn't really supposed to come back and how she and him were destined to be together... And this episode she decides that the best thing to tell him when confronting him about the issue of their repeated romps in the hay and her not knowing who's the little bun in the oven's daddy is to essentially say that what she and Shane had while they were together and Rick wasn't there was a real thing? Just what the hell did she think he was going to take away from that little confession? Gee, did it cross her mind that Shane just might interpret that as they would still be a 'loving family' if Rick had stayed out of the picture, instead of not only loosing all of that but having everything you lost being waved right under your nose on a daily basis? And that maybe, just maybe, in his now really warped mind, if Rick 'goes', then he could get all that back instead of braving this horrible new world all alone. I admit that would bother me as a person, it would not push me over any edge, again we have what we have in us. The fact that people are saying Lori and Carl and the potential baby are what drove Shane insane further proves my point he would be a horrible leader. We all have our issues, but when the chips are down is when I think the most clearly, I actually delight in a crisis situation because I click into another gear. If your mind is so fragile you can't handle being spurned by a lover you are the one who in fact has no business in the "zombie infested world" not someone like Dale. -- -------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 AM ---------- Saw this on facebook and laughed my arse off!!!

[paranoid101]

Well that was hell of an episode, way too much to take in lol. You know I'm going to miss Shane, at the start of the episode I was saying to my lass that maybe Shane might be in the series for a while, guess not lol. They seemed very close to the house for Shane to murder Rick I wonder If Carl saw them going at it from that window he was looking through with the binoculars and If that's so why didn't he tell anyone else instead of running over there. Pfft TV shows and their screwed up logic. Great episode not sure if I can wait till next Friday for the last one lol

[EvilNed]

Glad they killed off Shane. I'd had enough with his whining and bitching for an entire season, straight. Also, other characters reactions to him were ludicrous at best. People were ignoring the fact they had a psycho sleeping under the same roofs as themselves by just putting their fingers in their ears and going "La-la-la". Made everyone look like idiots, Rick included. Everyone save for Dale that is. But he dead now!

[MinionZombie]

FANTASTIC EPISODE! I was up until 2am last night because I couldn't stop thinking about the episode, replaying it in my head. Anyway... 1) Opening montage was great. The memorial for Dale really felt genuine, no doubt because the actors themselves were sorry to see Jeff DeMunn leaving the show, and combining it with the group taking out their hate on some nearby zombies was awesome. Andrea with a pitchfork? Yes please. She's well versed in weapons these days isn't she? Guns, a scythe, now a pitchfork - good to see T-Dog actually getting something to do too, and the spade-hit to the one zombie's head with it's re-dying moments written across it's face was great. KNB knock it out of the park yet again. 2) The scene in the shed with Shane and Randall - the unravelling of Shane's mind - it was good to see that he was wrestling with either turning over a new leaf (as Rick said to Hershel) or finally taking on the darkness within him, and indeed he found it as an opportunity to take down Rick ... the sick bastard. Jon Bernthal did an excellent job in this episode. 3) Daryl the super ninja zombie hunter teamed up with Glenn? MORE PLEASE. Good to see Daryl becoming more a part of the group - him taking the gun from Rick and doing what was necessary with Dale has made him a key member of the group once more in his own eyes, I think, and even though he's still somewhat 'out there', he's coming back into the fold which is nice. His tracking skills are excellent too. 4) The two teams split up in the woods - excellent use of tension - the makers of this show seem to have an incredible ability to craft genuine tension. When zombie Randal attacked Glenn and Daryl, I was afraid one of them was going to get a bite, so when they took the zed down and we cut to the advert break I breathed quite the sigh of relief. The creeping sense of dread on their faces as Daryl realises that Randall died of a broken neck only was really good. 5) Winding back a bit, Randall's showed himself to be a very tricksy and untrustworthy guy. He was naive to believe Shane was leaving the camp, and the way he so easily championed his group a mere five miles away was disturbing. Somehow I doubt he remained on the outskirts when his group gangraped those campers. Glad to see Randall gone, that shady bastard. 6) Fast forward to Rick vs Shane - omfg what an excellent scene. So well written, so well directed, and genuinely tense ... even though I have always known that Shane was on 'borrowed time' having extended his lifetime beyond the end of Volume 1 of the trade paperbacks, I got so wrapped up in the scene and the staging of the scene, that I was starting to wonder if they'd kill off Rick in a dramatic turn around. I simultaneously knew that would be ludicrous and idiotic, but the scene was so well handled that it kept me on the edge of my seat. I was wondering if Rick would do the 'underhand gun fire' trick like you see in some movies when he was slowly handing his gun over to Shane, but then boom - knife to the heart - an excellent tweaking to Shane's demise from the comics. Metaphors galore, but also up close and personal. I was wanting even more of Rick damning Shane for making him do that to him, but even still, the scene was so well made by all involved. Having Carl then shoot the zombie Shane was a nice twist on the events of Volume 1, and it tied in really well with the previous episode's events. 7) ZOMBIE HORDE!!!!! The preview for the next episode looks flipping epic! Absolutely cannot wait to see it! I wonder if the end of 2x12 was going to the be the original ending of the season, prior to the episode 1 & 2 issue? Looks like all hell breaks loose in the next episode - I'm so amped for it!

[Neil]

...I'm sure it's already been covered in the thread, but of course now the group knows that anyone who dies, comes back... No one seems to comment on this?

[babomb]

No one seems to comment on this? They will be tomorrow!!

[MinionZombie]

No one seems to comment on this? It's a fair point actually - and he didn't have to wait too long for it either. Again, as I've said in my full post elsewhere in the thread, that whole last quarter of the episode was handled so well, but damn Lori, you need to get one of those toddler leashes for Carl. Speaking of which - that picture that Aces posted was friggin' hilarious.

[Neil]

you need to get one of those toddler leashes for Carl Yeh, I've mentioned before the way characters (especially children) just wonder off alone (into the woods?) without seemingly any real concern annoys me...