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Thread: Season finale - "TS-19"

  1. #91
    Twitching
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    That's part of what I'm talking about,
    Everywhere you see signs of prior (now deserted) human holdout positions, you see three things. 1) A few dead soldiers. (Reasonable, the other dead ones got up and wandered away), 2) Sandbag machine-gun/grenade launcher emplacements around previously defended buildings and TANKS, 3) A LIGHT scattering of now-terminated zombies which were cut down during their off-screen approach of the defensive position.

    When you put it all together, something just doesn't click. I mean, I'm TOTALLY OK WITH the idea the military (especially with units scattered thinly all over), could get overrun. Especially by the density of zombies that say, Rick ran into on horseback, or that were trying to break into the department store.

    What I DON'T get is Darabont essentially saying "U.S combat troops are incapable of taking more than twice their number of slow, mindless, shambling and PREDICTABLE ghouls down before being overrun." I mean c'mon, they had TANKS. They could've just RUN THE DAMNED THINGS OVER. It's not like the zombies are gonna jump out of the way! And again, things like TWD and WWZ *really* underestimate the hideous power of high-caliber automatic weapons at close-range on the human body. There would be at least some corpses in PIECES. NOT maybe 3-5 unable-to-walk Walkers as depicted in all 6 episodes (and 2-3 of those during the Guts episode.)

    I don't think it serves ANY collapse-of-society storyline justice when the police/military are depicted as easily-swept-aside straw tigers. I dilutes the "punch" of the impression "It just didn't matter how hard we fought, they took us down and ripped civilization apart while we watched, helpless no matter what lengths we went to."

    That's just a general pet peeve though. Like I said before, other than wishing that Jenner's body language and tone had done a better job of being in synch with the absolute certainty-of-despair and hopelessness his words communicated. Some might say "He'd made his decision, and was at peace with what was about to happen." However, if it had just been him I could go with that really well. Yet, here he is, being engaged by people who, despite knowing what the outside world is like far better than HE DOES, still want very much to live and continue fighting to stay alive. We see him attempting to persuade them that they're just holding onto false hope, and it would be better if they just accepted the end, like he had. I just didn't see that ardent certainty in the man, as he talked about the futility of going on. The words were chilling in their content, so the scriptwriting was dead on. This is SQUARELY a criticism of the actor who portrayed Jenner, and HIS inability to lend a completely true-to-life feel to the great material written for his character.

    Sentence by sentence, I loved Jenner and Rick's back and forth debate of Hope Vs. Hopelessness, with both convinced they are the one absolutely right. That was great. I felt that his dialog in TS-19 was some of Lincoln's best in the entire series to date, and really showed the wisdom in tapping him to portray such a pivotal character. Despite (or maybe because of) Rick's oft-maddening idealism and rigid do-rightness, the character has been one of my absolute favorite main protagonists in a zombie story, in any media. Right up there with "Adam" from Dunwoody's Empire. (That's a book series I'd LOVE to see make its way into a TV format, BTW.)

    Had Jenner turned in an equally powerful performance while playing opposite Rick, it would've done a lot for the scene. Especially in light of the forcibly-locking-group-in plot device, and the sudden decision to commit suicide by the (admittedly superfluous) black woman. The Andrea/Dale exchange/back-and-forth felt much more lifelike than the African-American woman's sudden "I'm staying. Don't want to end up like Amy & the others"...., and I give due props to the actress and actor playing Andrea and Dale. Was REALLY one of Dale's best scenes, even if it was a plot-device I've seen multiple times elsewhere. Was done well, that's all that counts.

    Really feel, after careful consideration, that Season 1 ended as strongly as it could, and both left the door flung wide for the plot to go anywhere in Season 2, and didn't leave us hanging for a year with our protagonists in dire/immediate jeopardy.

  2. #92
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    To be quite honest, considering the high amount of friendly fire we see going on in Iraq and Afghanistan these days, I find it totally realistic that the military wouldn't stand that much of a chance against the zombie hordes. Especially on home soil. Morale would drop fast, panic would ensue almost immediately. I mean this isn't brainwashed, psychotic and suicidal SS soldiers we're talking about, after all.

  3. #93
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    I have always said the military gets over run too quickly in zombiegeddon movies, if you come back from Iraq/Afghanistan/war zone where you've been killing living human beings for a living, shooting bags of meat isn't going to be a problem IMO. It would be nice to see a lot more terminated walkers lying around when we see any kind of abandoned/over run military position.

    On the flip side, if we go with "reality", we end up with more of a "Shaun of the Dead" scenario...outbreak, bit of chaos, military starts doing what it does best and normality returns sooner rather than later. If we want full on Post Apocalypse scenario, we just have to accept that the military couldn't cope for one reason or another (logistics, bad leadership, no political will to let them do the job properly etc).
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

  4. #94
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    let's just blame it on the politicians....


  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjfunkmasterG View Post
    Maybe those that hate this episode can back to supporting Romero more recent and inferior work and leave those of us who enjoy the hell out of this series to talk about it in great lengths without hearing a bunch of BS about being cliched this or cliched that... Wanna talk cliched???? Watch anything Romero produced from LAND to SURVIVAL
    Come on DJ, it is very possible for both offerings to be cliche. We do not need to say one is and one is not, and it is a matter of expressing opinion, people who are not a fan of one episode can still love and enjoy the show.

    Again I do not understand that faction/divide thing here that you are reinforcing. I will say it again. I am a fan of both Romero and Kirkland. It is not only possible it makes sense since Kirkland was inspired by and pays tribute to George.

    I humbly suggest people take a step back off of that line of thinking and understand we all have opinions and they are largely going to be very different. I liked this episode for the most part.

    It was not my favorite, I thought the whole locking them inside to die angle and his motivation for doing so was very off. I also thought their response was not proportional. It was a bit forced, contrived, and unbelievable to me. Even if he had "gone mad" his stance on the subject was also hard to swallow and poorly motivated.

    Does that mean I should leave this forum and only talk about Romero? Because I love both but can look at each with a critical eye and express my opinion honestly about each?

  6. #96
    Chasing Prey MoonSylver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn View Post
    Come on DJ, it is very possible for both offerings to be cliche. We do not need to say one is and one is not, and it is a matter of expressing opinion, people who are not a fan of one episode can still love and enjoy the show.

    Again I do not understand that faction/divide thing here that you are reinforcing. I will say it again. I am a fan of both Romero and Kirkland. It is not only possible it makes sense since Kirkland was inspired by and pays tribute to George.

    I humbly suggest people take a step back off of that line of thinking and understand we all have opinions and they are largely going to be very different. I liked this episode for the most part.

    It was not my favorite, I thought the whole locking them inside to die angle and his motivation for doing so was very off. I also thought their response was not proportional. It was a bit forced, contrived, and unbelievable to me. Even if he had "gone mad" his stance on the subject was also hard to swallow and poorly motivated.

    Does that mean I should leave this forum and only talk about Romero? Because I love both but can look at each with a critical eye and express my opinion honestly about each?
    Nope. You're being too reasonable. You must pick one or the other, and then defend it visiously. That's how it works.



    Last edited by MoonSylver; 09-Dec-2010 at 03:41 PM. Reason: tie-po!

  7. #97
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    LOL nice!

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonSylver View Post
    Nope. You're being too reasonable. You must pick one or the other, and then defend it visiously. That's how it works.

    Gold!
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion2213 View Post
    I have always said the military gets over run too quickly in zombiegeddon movies, if you come back from Iraq/Afghanistan/war zone where you've been killing living human beings for a living, shooting bags of meat isn't going to be a problem IMO. It would be nice to see a lot more terminated walkers lying around when we see any kind of abandoned/over run military position.

    On the flip side, if we go with "reality", we end up with more of a "Shaun of the Dead" scenario...outbreak, bit of chaos, military starts doing what it does best and normality returns sooner rather than later. If we want full on Post Apocalypse scenario, we just have to accept that the military couldn't cope for one reason or another (logistics, bad leadership, no political will to let them do the job properly etc).
    I guess the reason is that watching guys in tanks shoot zombies until they run out of ammunition then run the rest over in tanks wouldn't make a particularly entertaining series. I mean a few rag-tag survivors can fight off zombies with a few guns and yard tools while soldiers in tanks are over run. The hell?

    A neighborhood block watch armed with claw hammers would be sufficient to take them down.

  10. #100
    through another dimension bassman's Avatar
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    Agreed. But that goes back to whats been said before. They're TV/Movies. Not "zombie fan's survivalist wet dream"...

  11. #101
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    Why the military fails and small gangs prevail?

    The Military are doing their job. Their job is to fight the zombies. Not only that, but at the "time of outbreak" where any military would be involved, they would also be dealing with larger and larger hordes of zombies. Eventually reaching armies of zombies that could be upwards 100,000. Maybe even a million. Small gangs (in films) never, ever face off against hordes of this size.

    Also, whenever a "small gang" encounters a zombie threat to dangerous for them to handle, they simply get the hell out of there. Any military operation would be too big and too clumsy to make a decision like that. "We're here to protect the CDC." And that's what they're gonna do, at least for awhile. Finally, after awhile, they're gonna figure out that they are doomed and that's when the panic sets in - because there's really no plan B. Suddenly, for a few moments, it would turn into a "every man for himself"-situation. Panicking, or dead (or maybe even zombiefied), officers would do little to improvie morale in a situation like this.

    An organized military, leaning on a clumsy hierarchy, is simply not the ideal gang to deal with a zombie invasion in your own homeyard.

  12. #102
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    Yet another step down in quality from Ep 1., the series at first was very effective in showing insurmountable hordes of zombies which could overwhelm military forces (as evilned states above). If an entire city is literally 'dead' that would be very hard for any military to defeat, outside of use of WMD. They also had a nice thing going by depicting the zombies as slow at first but then picking up pace (even to near-running speeds) as they frenzy around prey. The menace was believable in Ep. 1 and even 2 but then dwindled to near zero as the series progressed.

    Say what you will about Dawn '04 you can't deny those rabid ghouls would present a very real extinction event for humanity.

    Looking forward to WWZ realistically depicting the feasibility of a shambler holocaust, that could very well be our Magnum Opus. And I imagine that project has only picked up speed in light of TWD's popularity?

  13. #103
    Walking Dead Legion2213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post

    Say what you will about Dawn '04 you can't deny those rabid ghouls would present a very real extinction event for humanity.

    Looking forward to WWZ realistically depicting the feasibility of a shambler holocaust, that could very well be our Magnum Opus. And I imagine that project has only picked up speed in light of TWD's popularity?
    I've said it before - Dawn 04 zombies are terrifying - Fast, aggressive and virtually unstoppable. Out of the various zombie types, they are the most likely to topple our civilisation IMO. I'd rather face 10 GAR/TWD shamblers than one Dawn 04 monster.
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion2213 View Post
    I've said it before - Dawn 04 zombies are terrifying - Fast, aggressive and virtually unstoppable. Out of the various zombie types, they are the most likely to topple our civilisation IMO. I'd rather face 10 GAR/TWD shamblers than one Dawn 04 monster.
    Agreed. A GAR holocaust almost seems "fun" (admit it, we're all a little sick lol).

    A Dawn '04 holocaust - not fun at all, a complete nightmare!

  15. #105
    through another dimension bassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    A Dawn '04 holocaust - not fun at all, a complete nightmare!
    Nah.....all you need is "shattaproof glass, assho!"

    Last edited by bassman; 09-Dec-2010 at 07:47 PM. Reason: .

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