3rd Episode - Tell it to the frogs

[general tbag]

Crap! i don't even remember posting this - sorry everyone. :/ There's a reason i usually don't post when i've been drinking, and you've just seen it. Again, apologies to everyone who read this. Ugh... :/ Group hug? Edit: Upon further review, based on Moonslyver's epic post, i may in fact post drunken belligerent rants more often! lol! If you play xbox live drunkard insulting is the norm past 2am

[MoonSylver]

Crap! i don't even remember posting this - sorry everyone. :/ Edit: Upon further review, based on Moonslyver's epic post, i may in fact post drunken belligerent rants more often! lol! Let's combine the two, shall we?

[bassman]

So I watched this episode for the second time last night and I've got a question. People keep complaining that Merle's cut is too clean? WTF are you talking about?!? YOU CAN'T EVEN SEE THE CUT. We never see where he actually sawed it off. He just see his fingers and palm! There's also blood all over the roof where he did it....

[MoonSylver]

So I watched this episode for the second time last night and I've got a question. People keep complaining that Merle's cut is too clean? WTF are you talking about?!? YOU CAN'T EVEN SEE THE CUT. We never see where he actually sawed it off. He just see his fingers and palm! There's also blood all over the roof where he did it.... "You did not see what you saw, instead you only saw what you THINK you'd seen..."

[bassman]

"You did not see what you saw, instead you only saw what you THINK you'd seen..." I'm beginning to think people don't actually watch and pay attention to this show, but use the force to imagine it being whatever they like...

[MoonSylver]

I'm beginning to think people don't actually watch and pay attention to this show, but use the force to imagine it being whatever they like... "This plaque is in memory of all of the brave pirates, robots, & ninjas, who gave their lives fighting the zombie menace."

[Thorn]

I like the points Wyld made a lot. I understand where everyone is coming from, and after stepping back a bit to look at it I think more information needs to come to light here. Not that I am changing my stance, I am not. Lori should have been told the truth. If he told her this as the "crap" was hitting the fan, and it was either run or die and he made this decision to keep her alive I would hate him less. I would still feel he owes her the truth. If he told her this because he coveted her and used this as a way to giver her closure to move so he could move in on her then he is more of a bastard than initially thought. Yes in times of war people make hard decisions, human sacrifice is required to achieve an objective. But these are not people with families with them, and children in their arms. These are soldiers who signed up for the job. They opted in. They signed control and direction of their own lives away. In the Marines if your commander says jump you jump, if he says dig in you dig in, if he says make a tactical retreat... he isn't a marine (no I kid). In this case it is a woman, and her family, not a soldier being directed where to go by a military general for the greater good of a nation. It is a man, telling a woman her husband (and his "best friend") is dead. They then ABANDON this man to die at the hands of zombies, be taken away from the hospital god knows where or if they will lever meet again), or to die slowly of lack of food and water.. a horrible way for anyone to go. I think you are comparing apples to oranges here. I would say I understand the idea that wrong decision is sometimes made for right reasons. Again we do not know where the hospital and defense of the city was when this went down which would be key in my mind anyway for deciding fully on how I feel about Shane. I do feel however the message so far, starting back with he and Rick chatting in the opener about Rick's family has seemed impure and off throughout the show. It is entirely possible this is the writers trying to mislead us and that is great. I do not want to hate Shane. I like the actor, I like the character. I like his potential. However it does not look good and I say again, no matter what YOU feel is right or wrong in this situation I am telling you for ME. It is wrong, I would never do that to you (deny you the right to make hard choices for YOUR family) and I would take issue with any man who did so for me. It is not hard for me to extend that to Lori. As for my survivability in such an event I am confident I would do just fine (So many of us do don't we?), and I would do so living and dying if need be with my values as intact as humanly possible while ensuring the life and safety of my family. We have discussed this around here for years, through several versions of forum software, with an ever changing cast of characters. Some preaching kill the retarded and disabled, leave the challenged for food.. use children as bait. I have heard it all, and you know what I could not justify that in my mind NO MATTER the cost and if it was something that was done and I did not try to stop it I am not sure i could live with my self. Morales and values have a place in any reality, especially at the end of reality as we knew it. "Live with honor, die with dignity" If it came down to self preservation, hard decisions would be made. But they would not be made lightly, and those who have known me for any amount of time on this board know where I stand on the issue so I won't prattle on further.

[AcesandEights]

Watched it again and dont understand why he cut his hand off opposed to the thinner bolt the handcuffs are attached to? It being rusty should of taken less time than his hand. I was wondering why no one else was really discussing this, but I guess the social theorizing is more tantalizing. I do realize it's possible he was just losing his shit to such an extent that he went a bit crazy and started sawing and realized he had to finish. Sounds cheesy, but at the start of the episode he is clearly 'out of it' and doesn't even realize his circumstances till he 'comes back' to reality. It really seemed unnecessary for them to go this route with sawing the hand off, but meh. I watched the episode again and I have to agree with a few of the other comments about the actual meat of the story being pretty thin in this episode.

[Deckard]

I'm surprised by how unimpressed many were with Michael Rooker's performance in the opening minutes of this episode. I actually thought this was one of the better scenes of the show so far. I just love how as soon as the zombies start peering their pretty little faces through the door, Merl starts crying saying "Oh Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, I know I'm being punished, I deserve it, I deserve it I've been bad, help me now show me the way show me what to do. Then he starts laughing sadistically banging his head on the ground, becomes angry then sees the hacksaw and says "Thats ok, never you mind sonny Christ boy, I ain't begged you before I ain't going to start begging you now, don't you worry about me begging you ever, I'll never beg you!!! Maybe Merl's a little bit of a stereotypical redneck racist (although to me he seems to hate everyone) sure, but I would love to see the character add some depth as the show goes on and give Michael Rooker his due. Unfortunately, I think Merl's life span is only 1 more episode or 2 at the most. I would love a character in this show to be as good bad as our buddy from Day Cpt. Rhodes was because sometimes it's good to be bad and usually more fun. Oh and I love Norman Reedus being casted as Merl's brother. [IMG][/IMG] BOONDOCK SAINTS 3

[Mitchified]

I did the same thing that you did, Thorn. I stepped back and thought things through again from the other side of the argument. I know that some people find this particular discussion to be over the top or even downright ridiculous since it's just a television show, but personally I find it fascinating. Frankly, I think it's a testament to the show that it inspires such passionate and morally-grounded conversations. I saw on another post that you read the comics, Thorn, and so do I. So we both know some of the decisions that the characters (namely Rick) have to make later on in the series. The question is raised if something is morally terrible but it's what has to be done to preserve the group, is it still wrong? That's an honest question, not an attempted point in my favor or anything like that. I'll be completely honest and say that I personally have no idea what the answer is to that question. Maybe there isn't one, at least one that's satisfactory. As for the Shane situation, after thinking about it for a while I've decided that it's all going to come down to motivation. If he was attempting to do the right thing, I'm not sure that I could call it anything but the lesser of two evils. Obviously if it was just a way to get with Lori he deserves what he has coming. Where things really get muddled up is when Rick tells Lori that they did the right thing by leaving him behind, so if it turns out that it would have been what he wanted if he was able to communicate that to them, was Shane simply doing what he knew Rick would want him to do? As for the whole Merle cutting off his hand thing, the words "He's insane" and "He's an idiot" strike me as possible answers..

[Thorn]

I did the same thing that you did, Thorn. I stepped back and thought things through again from the other side of the argument. I know that some people find this particular discussion to be over the top or even downright ridiculous since it's just a television show, but personally I find it fascinating. Frankly, I think it's a testament to the show that it inspires such passionate and morally-grounded conversations. I saw on another post that you read the comics, Thorn, and so do I. So we both know some of the decisions that the characters (namely Rick) have to make later on in the series. The question is raised if something is morally terrible but it's what has to be done to preserve the group, is it still wrong? That's an honest question, not an attempted point in my favor or anything like that. I'll be completely honest and say that I personally have no idea what the answer is to that question. Maybe there isn't one, at least one that's satisfactory. As for the Shane situation, after thinking about it for a while I've decided that it's all going to come down to motivation. If he was attempting to do the right thing, I'm not sure that I could call it anything but the lesser of two evils. Obviously if it was just a way to get with Lori he deserves what he has coming. Where things really get muddled up is when Rick tells Lori that they did the right thing by leaving him behind, so if it turns out that it would have been what he wanted if he was able to communicate that to them, was Shane simply doing what he knew Rick would want him to do? As for the whole Merle cutting off his hand thing, the words "He's insane" and "He's an idiot" strike me as possible answers.. Great post, and glad I am not the only one who stews these things over in my mind as I drive around or wait for job to finish at work. Based on the comics, and on real life. I feel that hard decisions do need to be made. Always there are these decisions, and someone who needs to make them. Generally in the comics Rick is the accepted and appointed leader. He bears the burden of making these decisions, and the group has signed on to follow him. It gets bad, and every decision he makes that leads to a misstep or tragedy he bears full on his shoulders. Life as a leader is hard for those of us who lead while keeping the human equation alive in that process. So I guess I am saying in that situation, the survivors are like a group of survivors more than just a family, there is an accepted pecking order to leadership, and the decisions are based on life or death survival in the worst possible of settings. When did he tell Lori this? Before the crap hit the fan? Before the planned evac? During? As the town was lost and people were fleeing in droves where running headlong into the think of it would likely be suicide? I agree it will come down to motive for me as to how much I dislike Shane, I am as I said already not a fan of his decision but it would really go a long way to know his motivation and the timing/setting of the decision he made and how and when the went about it. Then at one point even after he made this "bad" decision, would he not owe it to her to tell her the truth? Or do you think sparing her feelings trumps a wife knowing the truth? Another question would be this. If you are a survivor following Shane and you learn of this decison and this particular action. Him lying to his best friends wife to get her out of town while abandoning him to the fates, would that not taint your view of him? Would you readily follow him going forward or would you doubt all of his decisions from then on in especially if you learned he was plowing his best friends wife he left to die in the woods. I think it might well work against the unity of the group, and it might even lead to it splitting apart. Look at us some think it was what needed to be done, others think it was a horrible thing to do. You might even see the group split up and go two separate ways if this were to play out differently than in the comic.

[Legion2213]

I'm surprised by how unimpressed many were with Michael Rooker's performance in the opening minutes of this episode. I actually thought this was one of the better scenes of the show so far. I just love how as soon as the zombies start peering their pretty little faces through the door, Merl starts crying saying "Oh Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, I know I'm being punished, I deserve it, I deserve it I've been bad, help me now show me the way show me what to do. Then he starts laughing sadistically banging his head on the ground, becomes angry then sees the hacksaw and says "Thats ok, never you mind sonny Christ boy, I ain't begged you before I ain't going to start begging you now, don't you worry about me begging you ever, I'll never beg you!!! I liked that bit, thought he played it well, showed us what sort of character he was. Little bit of synchronicity as well, I watched an episode of CSI Miami only a few days ago, Michael Rooker was in it...playing the part of a guy who only had one hand.

[Thorn]

I liked that bit, thought he played it well, showed us what sort of character he was. Little bit of synchronicity as well, I watched an episode of CSI Miami only a few days ago, Michael Rooker was in it...playing the part of a guy who only had one hand. I think he is an amazing character actor, and he has a lot of depth. I agree he is often not given the credit he is due but I have always found him to be quite talented. Henry: Portrait of a serial killer was the perfect launching point for his film career and it really show cased his talents.

[MoonSylver]

I was wondering why no one else was really discussing this, but I guess the social theorizing is more tantalizing. I think most of the calling shenannagans on that has been going on over in the OTHER Ep3 thread. *Sheesh* Mods... I'm surprised by how unimpressed many were with Michael Rooker's performance in the opening minutes of this episode. Hurm. I know I said as much in the shoutbox the night of, but apparently forgot to mention it in my review. I actually thought this was one of the better scenes of the show so far. I just love how as soon as the zombies start peering their pretty little faces through the door, Merl starts crying saying "Oh Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, I know I'm being punished, I deserve it, I deserve it I've been bad, help me now show me the way show me what to do. Then he starts laughing sadistically banging his head on the ground, becomes angry then sees the hacksaw and says "Thats ok, never you mind sonny Christ boy, I ain't begged you before I ain't going to start begging you now, don't you worry about me begging you ever, I'll never beg you!!! Maybe Merl's a little bit of a stereotypical redneck racist (although to me he seems to hate everyone) sure, but I would love to see the character add some depth as the show goes on and give Michael Rooker his due. Unfortunately, I think Merl's life span is only 1 more episode or 2 at the most. I would love a character in this show to be as good bad as our buddy from Day Cpt. Rhodes was because sometimes it's good to be bad and usually more fun. Oh and I love Norman Reedus being casted as Merl's brother. +100% On all of the above. BOONDOCK SAINTS 3 "An shepards we shall be, for thee my lord, for thee...." Little bit of synchronicity as well, I watched an episode of CSI Miami only a few days ago, Michael Rooker was in it...playing the part of a guy who only had one hand. *starts searching the clouds for omens. Portents. Signs....*

[Legion2213]

This could be big spoilage about Merle...   Note the lack of sawed off paw...