The Great Global Warming Swindle

[Khardis]

Spot on, Tricky. The chaotic panic about this whole global "warming" thing has gotten completely out of it, it's actually like in South Park when a crowd of people pissed off about something are actually all just bleetering "rabble rabble rabble", and in the 21st Century I'm ashamed to say the human race hasn't advanced past that retarded point. If this issue is as big as the doomsayers say it is (which it f*cking isn't), then surely if they were actually intelligent and calm, reasonable people, then they'd be looking at ALL the arguments, ALL the evidence, not just running off in one direction like a headless chicken. And the fact that people are leaping on anyone who is a naysayer on the issue, just proves beyond reasonable doubt exactly what was said in that documentary - if you're a naysayer, you're regarded as a holocaust denier ... and that's pretty retarded isn't it? That's the kind of thinking we last had when people believed others were witches and burnt them alive! I hope all the naysayers gather together and stand up, rather than give up, giving up is never an option when it's a situation like this, so I hope they start coming out of the woodwork to cool this situation down. Why would they do that? If theyre wrong it means theyre not better than the rest of us scumbag polluters anymore. Didnt you see the "smug" episode of southpark? It speaks volumes.

[Danny]

aye, i learned to stay indoors with the windows boarded after a geroge clooney acceptance speech

[Khardis]

Indeed, Cameron's most definitely got my vote, but you don't have to like everything your party of choice says - and I certainly don't like the green tax plane thing ... but on the other hand, if doing some of that bollocks helps get the Conservatives back in control of our out-of-control country, then I guess it's a means to an end. But exactly, all these taxes penalise those who can't afford to pay, but need to use their car of take a flight. I don't believe in all these nobs jetting off on holidays all the time, they're just greedy wankers who spend all their money - I've never been on a plane in my life thus far, seriously, NEVER. The rich are rich enough, they can live off the interest on their piles of cash as it is, but the middle classes just keep getting squeezed having to pay for everything. Green taxes are stupid, it's just a form of facism, forcing people to not use a service or useful tool, despite the fact many or the majority need to use the tool (e.g. the car - how many people do you know take car journeys for fun? I know none, it's a tool, all journeys are for a purpose). Forcing people out of something is not the answer, it just earns a quick buck and plays into the hands of the doomsaying weirdos. Clean-fuelled jets is what you need and so on and so forth and all the other points I've stated up till now in support of my approach to climate change - which is natural!! Speaking of which, was trading words with a friend of mine about this documentary the thread is on about, and he so staunchly believes in us being the cause it's gheay, and this is the same person who believes in 9/11 conspiracy theories... Question one thing but not the other? Blatant hypocrisy methinks. Thats what liberals advocate. When they say "We need to change the way we live!" they mean: YOU need to change the way YOU live. Al Gores carbon footprint is massive with his private jet flying him all over the world to discuss global warming. I think thats the very definition of irony. I hesitate to continue because I may start to sound more dismissive and maybe even a tinge condescending. Its just pure frustration. Its not that I particularly mind talking about global climate change or debating it. In fact for the most part I enjoy it. But that is the probably the problem. I have always been willing to throw my two cents into a global climate change discussion. Perhaps that is what I find so frustrating….since I have read and witnessed so many of these debates and discussions I keep seeing the same arguments. Whats most annoying is that there is a great deal of confusion on whats true and whats not. The main cause of this confusion is not from conflicting scientific research, its from the sometimes intentional but mostly unintentional propagation of myths, falsehoods, dated research, and misinterpreted conclusions. I cant recall a single argument in this thread countering human caused global warming that has not already been debunked, discredited, proven false, or otherwise dismissed for appropriate reasons. A couple people in this thread, who reject the claim that humans are the main cause of an apparent rapid global climate change, mention that the alternate theories are not being given serious attention or fair review….. And that statement really really confuses me in one sense. And makes me significantly angry in another sense. It confuses me because the people who say these other theories are not being given serious attention or fair review use these same theories to support their viewpoint. The arguments and studies that they use are inconsistent with contemporary research and are disputed by the overwhelming consensus of experts. Not just experts of a particular specialized field but experts in all disciplines of natural sciences. Sometimes these arguments use seriously dated research and other times is completely false or fabricated. So what confuses me is these people who say the other theories are not given serious and fair attention are themselves attributing a vastly disproportionate value in a minority theory. And if they even bothered to look they would discover that each of their arguments is disputed through many different avenues of science. So it just confuses me that a camp would request fair and serious consideration while they unexplainably assign greater value in weaker arguments that are systematically eroded or made obsolete by greater volumes of contemporary study What makes me significantly angry is what these alternative conclusions and alternative claims are being used for. Increasingly just the existence of these alternative claims are being used to discredit the consensus claim, with no regards to whether those alternative claims have any merit or plausibility to begin with. Don’t people realize how crazy that is….Consider the following example situation. 80% of the people support a research claim that the earth is round. 10% support a research claim that it is flat. 5% support a research claim it is cuboidal. And another 5% believe the earth is actually a giant turtle shell. Would these mutually exclusive alternative claims be a strong argument against the majority? Of course not….right? No one in there right mind would argue like this would they? “The overwhelming consensus of scientists and research indicates the earth is round” “Nah that’s total BS a good deal of experts think otherwise. They say that the earth is simultaneously flat, cuboidal , and a giant turtle shell. The planet cant be round with such drastically alternative and numerous claims out there in existence. Its BS total BS”…… This example seems overly ridiculous but people have acted out this exact scenario several times over in this thread already. Listing a handful of alternative viewpoints they feel is a strong argument for their stance It doesn’t seem to matter if these alternative viewpoints correlate together or not it just matters if they disagree with the majority. As an argument they will bring up claims that the Earth is actually cooling…or that humans have no effect but warming is happening anyway….or that the sun is doing it….all these are mutually exclusive claims…they don’t support each other and when used together they don’t provide good evidence to sway from a scientific consensus. In the round earth example its easy to see how silly an argument that tactic makes but somehow people don’t see it as silly for these purposes Im not sure how much room Ill have left but lets start demonstrating how the common minority arguments how so horribly weak. To save me time Im going to just cut n paste stuff. Instead of retrieving the source. Even some of the fossil fuel super companies themselves support it now…lol Jeeze….screw this….All of them are listed on that site….just find your favorite anti argument its probably already addressed…… I posted it before but it must not have been looked at cause some of these same arguements came up again.... http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/20...g-sceptic.html . How do you explain away Mars global icecaps melting at the same rate as earths?

[Danny]

really?, mars'ice caps are metling?, it'd be interesting to see what affect mars ice turning to water would have on the planet.

[capncnut]

really?, mars'ice caps are metling?, it'd be interesting to see what affect mars ice turning to water would have on the planet. It's crazy to think that a planet which is further away and definitely much more colder than Earth would have their ice caps melt at the same rate. In fact, that's kinda scary?

[Terran]

The south polar cap is vaporizing now, which means CO2 is rushing back into the atmosphere. "Remember, though," adds Smith, "there are two polar caps on Mars--north and south. While the south polar cap is vaporizing the north polar cap is growing. It's a balancing act. Overall air pressure will be greatest when there's the least amount of CO2 on the ground." The next such peak is due in early October--that is, early southern summer on Mars So if one Ice Cap melts while the other grows that means Global Climate is remaining relatively constant.... http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2..._southpole.htm The mars arguement is another commonly used flawed arguement There's Global Warming on Mars Too Objection: Global warming is happening on Mars and Pluto as well. Since there are no SUV's on Mars, CO2 can't be causing Global Warming. This is quite rich. One hundred years of weather station temperature data all over the globe and these guys still don't buy it. Three photos of one piece of ice on Mars and they have no doubts! As for Pluto, it hasn't even completed one orbit in the 150 years we've been reading the thermometers here on Earth! Still, avoid the temptation to laugh out loud... Answer: Warming on another planet would be an interesting coincidence but it does not necessarily have to have the same cause. The only relevant factor the Earth and Mars share is the sun, so if the warming were real and related it would have to be due to the sun. The sun is being watched and measured very carefully back here on earth and it is not the primary cause of the current climate change. As for this alledged finding, there is very little evidence to go on when it comes to discerning a global climate change on Mars. The only evidence out there that I am aware of is a series of photographs of a single icey region in the southern hemisphere that shows melting over a two year (~1 martian year) period. Here on earth we have direct measurements from all over the globe, widespread glacial retreat, reduction of sea ice and satellite measurements of the lower troposphere up to the stratosphere. To compare this mountain of data to a few photographs of a single region strains credulity. In fact, scientists studying Mars believe this is a regional change caused by Mars' own orbital cycles. See Global Warming on Mars? from Real Climate for more details. As for Pluto, a cursory glance at Pluto's orbit and atmosphere reveals how ridiculous it is to draw any conclusions about climate, much less climate change, from two occultation observations 14 years apart way out there in the ice cold and lonely Kuiper Belt! Back to Mars, here is a nice and succint way to compare the available evidence: On Earth, we have poles melting, surface temperature rising, tropospheric temperatures rising, permafrost melting, glaciers world wide melting, CO2 concentrations increasing, borehole analysis showing warming, sea ice receding, proxy reconstructions showing warming, sea level rising, sea surface temperatures rising, energy imbalance, ice sheets melting and stratosphere cooling which leads us to believe we have GHG driven global warming. One Mars we have one spot melting which leads us to believe...one spot is melting.

[Danny]

well thats that theory dashed, though what would happen on mars if it got warmer?, if you had oceans would life start on there the same way it did on herE?, would algie form and produce oxygen or would life be created but take an entirley different route, thats like the best "what if?" idea i would ever wanna see happen.

[7feet]

You might also try to think about what is known about the Martian ice caps. One major bit of which is that they aren't all water ice, folks. A lot of it is frozen CO2, otherwise known as dry ice. A little temperature change and it just pops back into a gas, no liquid stage. Hell, at the tiny atmospheric pressure on Mars water ice will generally do the same thing. So pretty small temperature variations, including seasonal, can make big chunks of them go poof. Longer year, more elliptical orbit, little things like global dust storms that can blanket the planet for months at a time - there are a myriad of things that make comparisons just plain stupid. It's a vastly different planet with very different climactic influences. Hey, if it got warmer, it would be interesting. But it's a tired old planet, and if anything it would be more likely that it had it and likely doesn't any more (though it would be a damn cool thing if there was some there). Theres some thought that life on Earth could have been seeded from Mars. It's a lot smaller, so would have cooled faster making for conditions where life could pop up, and we've found plenty of rocks here that had been blasted by bigger rocks off the surface of Mars. Some people have even done some tests putting micro-organisms under the sort of temperatures and pressures that would entail, and a few have survived. Hmmm. It would take a massive kick in the ass to warm it up, though. If those crazy planetologists are right and theres massive amounts of permafrost underneath the surface, that could be pretty cool.

[Khardis]

so because earth has 2 melting caps and mars has 1 (made of water) they dont compare? You do realize that the Northern (melting) icecap on mars is made mostly of H2O while the southern one (non-melting) is made mostly of frozen Carbon Dioxide aka Dry ice (which once evaporated becomes a gas instantly and not a liquid which can re-freeze again like H2O. You might also try to think about what is known about the Martian ice caps. One major bit of which is that they aren't all water ice, folks. A lot of it is frozen CO2, otherwise known as dry ice. A little temperature change and it just pops back into a gas, no liquid stage. Hell, at the tiny atmospheric pressure on Mars water ice will generally do the same thing. So pretty small temperature variations, including seasonal, can make big chunks of them go poof. Longer year, more elliptical orbit, little things like global dust storms that can blanket the planet for months at a time - there are a myriad of things that make comparisons just plain stupid. It's a vastly different planet with very different climactic influences. Hey, if it got warmer, it would be interesting. But it's a tired old planet, and if anything it would be more likely that it had it and likely doesn't any more (though it would be a damn cool thing if there was some there). Theres some thought that life on Earth could have been seeded from Mars. It's a lot smaller, so would have cooled faster making for conditions where life could pop up, and we've found plenty of rocks here that had been blasted by bigger rocks off the surface of Mars. Some people have even done some tests putting micro-organisms under the sort of temperatures and pressures that would entail, and a few have survived. Hmmm. It would take a massive kick in the ass to warm it up, though. If those crazy planetologists are right and theres massive amounts of permafrost underneath the surface, that could be pretty cool. beat me to it :P

[MinionZombie]

It's McDonalds. Not MAC. How do you get Maccy from Mc? We call it Mickey D's. Huh? Because we're British and we're cooler than everyone else in the universe, that's why! Yeah, it's always been "Maccy D's" over here, I guess because we have "Old MACdonald had a farm" and such, whereas you guys have "Old MCdonald" ... right? It's that damn split between English and Americalish isn't it?

[LouCipherr]

I'll just post a URL - I'm not going to comment on it. NYTimes - A Call to Cool the Hype Al Gore treats the truth like your mom treats the good china - there's never an occasion actually special enough to use it, but it's nice to take it out and look at it once in a while.

[MinionZombie]

“Nowhere does Mr. Gore tell his audience that all of the phenomena that he describes fall within the natural range of environmental change on our planet,” Robert M. Carter, a marine geologist at James Cook University in Australia, said in a September blog. “Nor does he present any evidence that climate during the 20th century departed discernibly from its historical pattern of constant change.” Getting personal, he mocked Mr. Gore’s assertion that scientists agreed on global warming except those industry had corrupted. “I’ve never been paid a nickel by an oil company,” Dr. Easterbrook told the group. “And I’m not a Republican.” Alarmism is utterly pointless, useless and actually damaging ... and as for the whole idea of "the time for debate is over" ... erm, excuse me, WHAT f*ckin' debate? Anything that comes out against Al Gore & Co's theories doesn't get anywhere near the coverage that they get, it's completely biased scaremongering.

[LouCipherr]

Anything that comes out against Al Gore & Co's theories doesn't get anywhere near the coverage that they get, it's completely biased scaremongering. Say it isn't so..

[MinionZombie]

I'm afraid it is sooooooo SO ... and that's super lame in this day and age, and especially in this democracy we're supposed to be living in where everyone gets a say and should be given the same press when it comes to an issue as important as this. And that whole "just in case" theory is complete bollocks, well, we might as well "just in case" build a massive laser gun to shoot possibly evil aliens out f the sky, "just in case" they crop up and wanna probe us all - it's retarded. "Just in case" is defeatism, and it's not being bothered about tackling the issue either, it's completely ignoring the whole other, completely valid, side of the argument, which has been spun and spun and spun by the global warming business machine that's controlled by all these politicians and businessmen with fingers in the global warming business pie. It's a f*ckin' industry unto itself, which is ironic considering the anti-establishment/capitalist/industrialist leanings of a significant enough chunk of the people following the whole movement. Am I pissed off this morning? F*ckin' A right I am...

[LouCipherr]

Am I pissed off this morning? F*ckin' A right I am... Go MZ, go!