Season finale - "TS-19"

[Sammich]

That's part of what I'm talking about, What I DON'T get is Darabont essentially saying "U.S combat troops are incapable of taking more than twice their number of slow, mindless, shambling and PREDICTABLE ghouls down before being overrun." I mean c'mon, they had TANKS. They could've just RUN THE DAMNED THINGS OVER. It's not like the zombies are gonna jump out of the way! And again, things like TWD and WWZ *really* underestimate the hideous power of high-caliber automatic weapons at close-range on the human body. There would be at least some corpses in PIECES. NOT maybe 3-5 unable-to-walk Walkers as depicted in all 6 episodes (and 2-3 of those during the Guts episode.) I don't think it serves ANY collapse-of-society storyline justice when the police/military are depicted as easily-swept-aside straw tigers. I dilutes the "punch" of the impression "It just didn't matter how hard we fought, they took us down and ripped civilization apart while we watched, helpless no matter what lengths we went to." It puzzles me also. The marines at Khe Sanh held out for 77 days under siege and were being hit by ground forces, mortars, artillery and rocket attacks almost non stop. Hell, the military could have just used mine clearing line charges to blow into bits big groups of zombies. The only things I could see causing the military to fall apart is re-supply stopping and mass desertions, which GAR protrays in Dawn and Day. People can say all of the negative things they want about him, but he does think out believable backstories.

[Zombie Snack]

agreed. A gar holocaust almost seems "fun" (admit it, we're all a little sick lol). A dawn '04 holocaust - not fun at all, a complete nightmare! agreed

[Debbieangel]

It puzzles me also. The marines at Khe Sanh held out for 77 days under siege and were being hit by ground forces, mortars, artillery and rocket attacks almost non stop. Hell, the military could have just used mine clearing line charges to blow into bits big groups of zombies. The only things I could see causing the military to fall apart is re-supply stopping and mass desertions, which GAR protrays in Dawn and Day. People can say all of the negative things they want about him, but he does think out believable backstories. ditto: well said... GAR is GREAT at backstories!!!

[Wyldwraith]

Many, MANY great points, However, it's NOT like I don't understand that nearly all zombie movies/books (and now TV show) are focusing on the humans trying to survive in a world overrun by the dead. NOT a War of the Living Vs. The Undead. That SAID, I would WARMLY GREET some sign that such a horrendous battle for the fate of humanity took place by the time the camera starts showing us the slagged shell of ghoul-infested ruined civilization that is the setting of the genre's many offerings. So, it's fair to say that actually filming, or expecting someone to film what amounts to a large Saving Private Ryan-scale battle versus the undead is both a) Non-feasible for most productions, and b) At cross-purposes to the story being told. Again though, showing us a detail here or there that resonates with the logical aftermath of such a large-scale battle, ESPECIALLY for the high-priority human assets that we see survivors visit in the search for supplies quite frequently would NOT be at cross-purposes to the drama of the survivors situation, or beyond most productions. If Zach Snyder can come up with what appears to be a square-packed-mile of zombies so dense it looks like you could walk across their heads, then ANYONE could make it look like it cost the undead populace more to overrun a 2 machine-gun/1 grenade launcher, some riflemen and a guy with a SAW or 2 defensive position. Ask yourself this, which is more horrifying. A shot of survivors coming upon dead/mangled soldiers only recognizable as such from their ripped and gore-stained uniforms laying inside a circle of sandbags, with concentric circles of mangled bodies piled 4-deep atop each other, without ANY of the street/parking lot's concrete beneath showing. Or, same sandbag fortification, same mangled soldier-bodies, and a dozen corpses around it, one here, one there? Doesn't the first example just SCREAM the unrelenting horror that IT DIDN'T MATTER that the soldiers had the training, weapons, ammo, and great position. It DIDN'T MATTER that one group of 6-8 soldiers killed HUNDREDS/Couple thousand before being dragged down. The zombies just kept coming and coming and coming until barrels started to go from constant overheating. Ammo-related jams allowed a couple hundred to get close enough to start the beginning of the end, etc. THEN evidence of panic. THAT scene screams to me Unrelenting Menace. The bodies of 12 men/women/children scattered one here, one there makes me go "Were these guys ALL Weekend Warriors? I mean, I know the REAL military is stretched pretty thing right now, but we couldn't muster even a few divisions to parcel out into smaller units to secure areas temporarily to facilitate civilian evacuations? The sheer lack of visual evidence that a battle of any significant occurred near/around the sandbag fortifications and tanks in TWD kinda made me feel like they were something of a visual tease. Like Darabont was saying "Yea, I had the assets to make this look like one evil-ass nightmare of a battle went down on the perimeter of that hospital, but just didn't much feel like shooting that. Here's a parking lot full of stained-head-sheeted human-shaped lumps. Forget this is TV and the entire point of the medium is to conjure the story visually. Use your imagination to fill in the logical blanks...you know, like you do when you read a book?" In my crankier/more nitpicky moments during 3-4th viewings of each TWD Ep. I'd think "Yea, I can use my imagination like that. Think I'll go re-read Empire, or see if Empire 2 is out yet. There's always the rest of the Autumn series, Rot & Ruin was great, and The Living Dead & The Living Dead 2 or the Mammoth Book of Zombies & Mammoth Book of Zombie Apocalypse always have some kickass stories." Heck, there was one story in the Fiction Archive here. Something like Alema-137 (misspelled) that I thought had some absolutely AWESOME material that would feed right into something like a TS-19-style TWD Episode. It's not just griping/whining you know? These are some things I mention because I'd genuinely love to see them depicted onscreen. Scenes I really enjoyed a ton in various books, and scenes hinted at by this or that movie. Don't think I'm alone here either. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much drooling every time news of a WWZ advancement towards hitting the big screen reaches us. The Battle of Yonkers is, IMHO, the equivalent in the zombie apocalypse genre, of the huge battle outside Minas Tirith/Gondor was for The Return of the King in the Fantasy Genre. Characterization, atmosphere, interpersonal interaction/conflict, plot pacing, etc etc are all wonderful and vital parts of a great show/movie/book of any sort. But now and then wouldn't being able to see at least the aftermath of the Badass Apocalyptic Battle in a Zombie Apocalypse be fun?

[MinionZombie]

Nah.....all you need is "shattaproof glass, assho!" *high five*

[krisvds]

C Again I do not understand that faction/divide thing here that you are reinforcing. I will say it again. I am a fan of both Romero and Kirkland. It is not only possible it makes sense since Kirkland was inspired by and pays tribute to George. I humbly suggest people take a step back off of that line of thinking and understand we all have opinions and they are largely going to be very different. Does that mean I should leave this forum and only talk about Romero? Because I love both but can look at each with a critical eye and express my opinion honestly about each? GREAT! I was beginning to think I was on my own with that line of thought. Phew! @ moon: that's just fantastic. LMAO.

[Andy]

It puzzles me also. The marines at Khe Sanh held out for 77 days under siege and were being hit by ground forces, mortars, artillery and rocket attacks almost non stop. Hell, the military could have just used mine clearing line charges to blow into bits big groups of zombies. The only things I could see causing the military to fall apart is re-supply stopping and mass desertions, which GAR protrays in Dawn and Day. People can say all of the negative things they want about him, but he does think out believable backstories. I think there's a difference between fighting an armed enemy and fighting unarmed civilians including women and children.. the psychological effect on the troops would be a massive moral drain couple that with dwindling ammo and most probably confused orders from superiors, i think thats what you guys are underestimating the effect a zombie apocalypse would have on the millitary. and thats on the ones who dont abandon the front line to try and save their families. Anyway, just seen the last episode and it was fucking fantastic, i loved the opening with shane which really gave it a new twist to the whole shane/lori/rick situation and does make him a more sympathetic character all round. The ending was fantastic too, i cant wait for the second series.. i wonder what the doctor told rick before they left CDC? im hyped up.. i want the second series now.

[MoonSylver]

. i wonder what the doctor told rick before they left CDC? im hyped up.. i want the second series now. I have a theory   "...Rosebuuuuud...."

[bassman]

After the blood tests and all, I think he was telling him what any reader of the comics can guess....

[kidgloves]

After the blood tests and all, I think he was telling him what any reader of the comics can guess.... Ah yes. But who was feeling feint and being sick in this episode. Hmmmmm.

[MoonSylver]

After the blood tests and all, I think he was telling him what any reader of the comics can guess....   Dude, Shane fucked your wife.

[bassman]

Ah yes. But who was feeling feint and being sick in this episode. Hmmmmm. I thought that was because she was freaking out over "It's all gone!"?

[kidgloves]

I thought that was because she was freaking out over "It's all gone!"? That's what I thought but there are so many fucking loose ends who knows. Would be a good a curveball but then it would fuck up another storyline so it seems unlikely. I can't work out whether things like this are seeds being planted for future seasons or just shit writing.

[MoonSylver]

I can't work out whether things like this are seeds being planted for future seasons or just shit writing. Or maybe they're just messing with your mind...

[Wyldwraith]

Maybe, In the long-term the Morale Drain Theory, coupled with dwindling supplies and desertion could very well compromise a military position. No one is disputing that. What's in dispute is the way that 99% of zombie movies and TWD, whenever they show the site of a military vs. zombies battle, it looks like it took about 2-3 minutes for the zombies to finish off the soldiers. There's just NEVER enough bodies to indicate any sort of prolonged character to the battle. I mean, what about before the soldiers are out of anti-personnel-type explosives? No, a grenade probably won't terminate many zombies, but it'll break up a crowd. And Claymore mines? Going off literally inches in front of a densely packed small horde? Yes, the military unit would soon run out of these things if re-supply wasn't forthcoming, but they are trained to maximize the death toll of enemy forces with what they've got. One of the military branches has a saying: "Endure, Adapt, Overcome." Point is, that even if EVERY negative factor you described came into play, it STILL wouldn't render the military unit(s) inoperative until well after the first wave of Walkers were destroyed. Hell, ONE sniper on a secured rooftop could kill dozens alone. Doesn't take much scope-doping to headshot a target moving at a crawl thats 100ft away when you're trained to hit targets at 3/4ths of a mile standard, under cover, moving unpredictably, with variable wind and visibility conditions. If a sniper can get a terrorist running for his life, he can hit any zombie he chooses. Snipers ALSO keep track of EVERY BIT OF DATA concerning their activities. 2 shots max before the Sniper has analyzed his hit results and determined center-mass is ineffective. Could go on and on and on. What about a SINGLE Cobra, Apache or A-10 Thunderbolt dispatched for close-support of a cordoning force securing a perimeter behind which a civilian evacuation is occurring? Say what you want, but I don't believe the majority of people who choose to give over their freedom for a time to serve their country and people would abandon thousands/tens of thousands of defenseless women, children and elderly to be devoured. Yes, the urge to protect their own families would be powerful...but abandon their post and their comrades? What about Semper Fi, Do or Die?