Apocalypse like riots in London, Birmingham and Leeds

[SymphonicX]

Thanks for saying I'm a decent guy, some would disagree! A breakdown of my family: mum turned into abusive alcoholic when I was age 11, my dad is borderline autistic/adhd and a complete and utter nutter. My mum's side of the family are mostly, without doubt, scummy - but they hail from a solid working class background and luckily, those values got over to me before it all went tits up at age 11. My nan is a perfect example: Child 1: married and had successful life before unfortunately killing himself in the early 90s child 2: my mum - alcoholic for many years child 3: my aunt - got out of the family as quick as possible at age 16 child 4: uncle - did the same but unfortunately suffered a brain tumour which destroyed his life child 5: layabout, drunk, never worked a day in his life, benefit claming alcoholic mess with social services interest in his kid's welfare child 6: an absolute sociopath - has attempted to kill people, has raised a bunch of fucking horrible kids into the world, one of which is mentally ill in a hospital after a violent assault and the other's in prison for crackdealing and biting off his girlfriend's cheek. The quality of people's lives in my family went further and further downhill until the point of absolute absurdity - and it can very easily be traced back to the breakdown of my grandparents parenting....My grandad was a violent, nasty c*nt to his children, but his power diminished rapidly as age set in and by child number 5, things had gotten out of control - so the resentment from his children set in and basically everyone grew to hate everyone else. I hid in my bedroom until about age 18 - then I left home as soon as possible (can see a cycle already). I don't know why I came out the way I did, on paper I should be a nightmare - but its just the way it is. At the most vulnerable points in my life I was taken care of - and I never had to fend for myself out on the streets. Unfortunately though you're playing the "this is the way it was for me and I'm not fucked up" card - as I say, there are many many factors that helped create the persona we know as Tricky - and every single one is 100% different from every other human's in this world (i bet your parents are half decent) - so basis for comparison is a bit moot unless you'd all lived exactly the same lives.... I would love to be able to give you an insight into why I wanted to improve my situation...perhaps it's cos I locked myself in a room with loads of books? I read a lot, and got through many books in my youth...also I was bumped up a year in primary school due to the month I was born (August, the term cusp) meaning I had to grow up a bit quicker than I was ready for - and found myself learning a year above my actual intelligence level....little things like that can have a massively profound effect on someone....my parents weren't THAT bad, for instance nothing like the people you cited as an example - but what it comes down to is that there are WAY too many variables which the political right just shuts their ears and eyes to - and its this ignoring of very obvious factors such as this which massively contributes to the problem...!

[MinionZombie]

I just watched a "hoody horror" called Eden Lake - good flick, but extremely grim. Anyway, the main themes in that flick regarding the horrendous behaviour of the depicted yobbo teens is one of nurture rather than nature. A combination of an abusive family where shit rolls down hill, where violence is handed down from the eldest to the youngest, and a surrounding community that ignores any problems with blissful ignorance and a complete lack of parenting. These rioters are a mixture - some got wrapped up in the hysteria of the moment and made an extremely poor decision to get involved in horrific scenes of violence and property damage that terrorised communities across England ("joke" or not, successful or not, inciting a riot is an extremely serious criminal offense - one that can result in at the very least fear for an entire community, and at most the very scenes we saw played out on television for several nights). Others are tearaway children who are fatherless, and lack any kind of positive role model in their lives. Indeed, there'll be many of these rioters who are the so-called alpha male in the family. They have no father, they're the eldest male child, so they assume the role of alpha male without any guidance or knowledge of what they should be doing ... instead they just assume dominance and do whatever they like. The remaining parent can't - or won't - deal with the child, who is allowed to run amok at school without appropriate punishment (when they bother to turn up at school that is), and likewise the extended family will either have nothing to do with the wretched little shit, can't provide any control despite their best efforts, or will be bad examples and encourage criminal behaviour. Add in a society that encourages the worship of talentless non-celebrities in garbage like Big Brother, Heat Magazine, 'TOWIE' et al, claiming that a 42" flat screen and flash trainers are the solution to happiness, and you've got a big mess. The vast majority know that big screen TVs and trainers don't afford happiness, rather they're products that you work for and come to afford. However, for years this country was governed by politicians and commentators who claimed that it was perfectly fine to spend money you didn't have and couldn't afford to pay back (shameful in itself) ... then you have the benefit system that so often acts as a trap rather than a hand-up, with people having no sense of worth beyond 'leave school, regardless of grades, have a kid and be a mum' - we'll no doubt all know a few girls who left school at the earliest opportunity and now have several kids. If they can control their kids, fine, but there must be a deeper psychological issue at hand in some or many of these cases - an emotional void (be it from personal experience, or from the feeling of having no worth from your own actions) - that needs to be addressed. Additionally, the out-look for practically all young people (except for those who are rich or well connected) is dreary. The country has a dire economic situation, a piss-poorly balanced economy, and an state education system that pumps out grades that become more meaningless year after year after year (while hardly teaching anybody anything useful, or anything in a way that is meant for long-term retainment, rather than the current short-term 'get it on the exam paper and forget it' style that we have had for many years). Furthermore, the sense of community is busted in itself - even the decent everyday majority in this country hardly know their neighbours, and are oftentimes living far away from their extended families. Families are fractured across the country (even the globe), so that weakens society in a way, but even with those you aren't related to, you hardly know them - they're practically strangers - so you don't have that sense of community, until something shameful happens like these destructive riots, and then you get clean-up groups coming together for a collective short-term purpose (beyond which they'll all become strangers again, most likely). The core problems are multi-faceted, but criminals must be dealt with - you absolutely cannot afford to inspire a view that you can get away with this sort of vicious nonsense. Indeed that's one of the reasons why it went on for nights on end - the thugs saw they could seemingly get away with it, so the weak-willed and out-right yobbish stuck in out of greed and aggression. There was no political campaign behind it - there were no banners, there were no protests, there was no cohesion beyond selfish violence and looting - rather it is a wide social problem that society must collectively deal with ... not just identify a few possible problems and then ask, once again (despite somewhat answering it already) "so what is to blame for all this?" like I saw on Panorama earlier this week ... ... that sense of sweeping it under the carpet, a short-term moment of apparently wanting to understand the problem, only to disregard actually having to deal with it head-on.

[Neil]

MZ, I'm afraid your comments are complete bollox... Everyone knows the TV has to be at least 50"! ps: Good post!

[UndeadChicken]

I've got to admit that after hearing about all this, I've come to admire how the Chinese government handles their riots. People can talk bad about China all they want because they have a communist government, but there is no way they would tolerate this kind of shit happening in their country. I think these psychopaths deserve to be shot.

[Neil]

'Smart' CCTV could track rioters... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14629058 "If a window was smashed and shop looted in a town centre street, the technology would trace back to see who smashed the window and then retrace his steps to see when and where he entered the town centre. "The technology would also trace where the man had gone after leaving the scene," said Dr Orwell. Note the name of the doctor! How ironic!

[SymphonicX]

I just watched a "hoody horror" called Eden Lake - good flick, but extremely grim. Anyway, the main themes in that flick regarding the horrendous behaviour of the depicted yobbo teens is one of nurture rather than nature. A combination of an abusive family where shit rolls down hill, where violence is handed down from the eldest to the youngest, and a surrounding community that ignores any problems with blissful ignorance and a complete lack of parenting. These rioters are a mixture - some got wrapped up in the hysteria of the moment and made an extremely poor decision to get involved in horrific scenes of violence and property damage that terrorised communities across England ("joke" or not, successful or not, inciting a riot is an extremely serious criminal offense - one that can result in at the very least fear for an entire community, and at most the very scenes we saw played out on television for several nights). Others are tearaway children who are fatherless, and lack any kind of positive role model in their lives. Indeed, there'll be many of these rioters who are the so-called alpha male in the family. They have no father, they're the eldest male child, so they assume the role of alpha male without any guidance or knowledge of what they should be doing ... instead they just assume dominance and do whatever they like. The remaining parent can't - or won't - deal with the child, who is allowed to run amok at school without appropriate punishment (when they bother to turn up at school that is), and likewise the extended family will either have nothing to do with the wretched little shit, can't provide any control despite their best efforts, or will be bad examples and encourage criminal behaviour. Add in a society that encourages the worship of talentless non-celebrities in garbage like Big Brother, Heat Magazine, 'TOWIE' et al, claiming that a 42" flat screen and flash trainers are the solution to happiness, and you've got a big mess. The vast majority know that big screen TVs and trainers don't afford happiness, rather they're products that you work for and come to afford. However, for years this country was governed by politicians and commentators who claimed that it was perfectly fine to spend money you didn't have and couldn't afford to pay back (shameful in itself) ... then you have the benefit system that so often acts as a trap rather than a hand-up, with people having no sense of worth beyond 'leave school, regardless of grades, have a kid and be a mum' - we'll no doubt all know a few girls who left school at the earliest opportunity and now have several kids. If they can control their kids, fine, but there must be a deeper psychological issue at hand in some or many of these cases - an emotional void (be it from personal experience, or from the feeling of having no worth from your own actions) - that needs to be addressed. Additionally, the out-look for practically all young people (except for those who are rich or well connected) is dreary. The country has a dire economic situation, a piss-poorly balanced economy, and an state education system that pumps out grades that become more meaningless year after year after year (while hardly teaching anybody anything useful, or anything in a way that is meant for long-term retainment, rather than the current short-term 'get it on the exam paper and forget it' style that we have had for many years). Furthermore, the sense of community is busted in itself - even the decent everyday majority in this country hardly know their neighbours, and are oftentimes living far away from their extended families. Families are fractured across the country (even the globe), so that weakens society in a way, but even with those you aren't related to, you hardly know them - they're practically strangers - so you don't have that sense of community, until something shameful happens like these destructive riots, and then you get clean-up groups coming together for a collective short-term purpose (beyond which they'll all become strangers again, most likely). The core problems are multi-faceted, but criminals must be dealt with - you absolutely cannot afford to inspire a view that you can get away with this sort of vicious nonsense. Indeed that's one of the reasons why it went on for nights on end - the thugs saw they could seemingly get away with it, so the weak-willed and out-right yobbish stuck in out of greed and aggression. There was no political campaign behind it - there were no banners, there were no protests, there was no cohesion beyond selfish violence and looting - rather it is a wide social problem that society must collectively deal with ... not just identify a few possible problems and then ask, once again (despite somewhat answering it already) "so what is to blame for all this?" like I saw on Panorama earlier this week ... ... that sense of sweeping it under the carpet, a short-term moment of apparently wanting to understand the problem, only to disregard actually having to deal with it head-on. admittedly had to skim your post but what I read I agree with 100%. Spot on. -- -------- Post added at 08:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 AM ---------- I've got to admit that after hearing about all this, I've come to admire how the Chinese government handles their riots. People can talk bad about China all they want because they have a communist government, but there is no way they would tolerate this kind of shit happening in their country. I think these psychopaths deserve to be shot. Also goes for peaceful, legitimate protest. I wouldn't want to live under the iron glove of china and I'd put real money on you not wanting to either. The worst worst response from people on this issue was "call in the army". People, do you want a police state? I can do without the public crying for an Orwellian political system. Let's get this straight right now: the army are there to aggressively deal with international problems - the police are there to PROTECT THE PUBLIC. There's a difference and the line should NEVER be blurred less we end up like North Korea, Libya, Syria, China, etc.

[Andy]

I Think theres a huge difference between running a police state and using authority to hold scumbags responsible for their own actions, no matter how open and free a society is there will always be a criminal element that needs dealing with before it gets out of hand, which is exactly what our government has consistantly failed to do in the UK for years and years and years now. I really dispise this liberal, excuse making spineless attitude that goes here in the UK and europe, i really do. Give me china over that anyday.

[AcesandEights]

I have to think there's a middle ground between oppressive totalitarian police states and the corrupt co-opted wellfare states that the West are turning into. You know, it just makes sense that there has to be The common factor between the two (Western Wellfare States & Totalitarian regimes) seems to be a lack of power exercised by the people over their government and policy-makers to maintain a comfortable set of equitable and common-sense policies in line with their respective constitutions, the difference lies in that totalitarian governments have taken that right away, while the people in the West have given it up in favor of block-voting to moutpieces who are already in thrall to major interest groups other than the average citizen of their countries. Or maybe I'm completely off base...

[shootemindehead]

...Give me china over that anyday. I think it might be very wise to look at the history of China before commiting to such statements.

[Andy]

No absolutly not, i despise liberalism. I Blame liberal attitudes and liberal politicians ruling for all the problems in the west, over the last century as we've become more liberal in our society, we've also seen a huge drop is general social and moral attitudes, which is prevelent in america, the UK and europe, and that is whats wrong with us. Theres no personal or communal responsibility anymore, theres just excuses for everything. If we got a government in power that didnt spend all its time making excuses for the problems in society and faced up to them and dealt with them instead then it would do us all the world of good. Say what you like about china, they still have one of the lowest crime rates in the modern world.

[AcesandEights]

Sure the official crime rates are low in China, but that hardly illustrates the truth. Totalitarian regimes historically have little in the way of compunctions against distorting facts and figures to illustrate how wonderful it is to live in their utopia under their Great Leader/Party etc. In any event, I can tell you China's low crime rate statistics don't include their crimes against humanity. I know it's natural to want to swing hard and fast in the opposite direction when looking at the problems faced by the crumbling West, looking for a silver bullet, but when you swing in a reactionary manner and effect major change you usually end up with a lot of the same problems under different headers. Better to affect substantive reform.

[shootemindehead]

No absolutly not, i despise liberalism. I Blame liberal attitudes and liberal politicians ruling for all the problems in the west, over the last century as we've become more liberal in our society, we've also seen a huge drop is general social and moral attitudes, which is prevelent in america, the UK and europe, and that is whats wrong with us. Theres no personal or communal responsibility anymore, theres just excuses for everything. If we got a government in power that didnt spend all its time making excuses for the problems in society and faced up to them and dealt with them instead then it would do us all the world of good. Say what you like about china, they still have one of the lowest crime rates in the modern world. So did nazi Germany. Look, you're taking the "grass is always greener" to an extreme level and frankly, you don't live in THAT liberal a society, trust me. What's lacking is a sense of real responsibility in many areas of society, from the ground up and as for "morals", they can be changed quicker than a blink of an eye. "morals" are largely bunkum, in my opinion. Of course there would be a better situation if governments would take stock in the "wrongs" of the society that they govern and made better efforts to aid them, but the fact is that government and politics are now largely viewed as careers and not vocations. Far too many people get involved in politics as a career choice, rich in benefit, rather than out of a sense of duty for the common good and government is way too wrapped up in the bosom of large business, that often, the common good gets left far behind. That's not "liberalism", that's "capitalism" and it's led a lot of "Western" countries down the path they find themselves in today. However and I reiterate what I said before, look up the history of China and what the Chinese people had to endure for decades. I'm not talking about the Hong Kong's or the Shanghai's, I mean the poorer areas, especially those that were hit hard in the so called "great leap forward" in which millions died and many more were forced by the government to exist on subsistence farming. Or even take a look at the less harsh aspects, such as the restriction of travel or restriction on ownership rights. You may be somewhat dismayed by the state of England at present...but "China" ain't the way to go.

[MinionZombie]

I think there's a lack of respect, responsibility, a genuine sense of belonging (e.g. familial, and wider society - families are spread across the country, if not globe, so you lose a sense of community in your own family, nevermind the lack of 'togetherness' you so often get in small amounts on a day-to-day basis that combines into a general sense of disconnection), and there's too much greed and impatience. I'm all for capitalism - but in a responsible manner - for too long people have been borrowing and spending money they couldn't afford (Gordon Brown and Tony Blair made their guiding light for 13 ruddy years to boot), seeking happiness at the push of the on switch on some electronic device. Sure, buying a little something you've wanted for a while cheers you up a bit - but the problem comes when some people can't allocate that to an appropriate level within their own lives - their consumerism becomes their life, and acts as a plaster to obscure deeper issues inside their hearts that make them truly unhappy. There's also a lack of communication - ironically in a world where it's easier to chat to people from all over the globe through your keyboard, we've spread further apart, even at the family level, but also at the friend level. People out for a drink with friends, but they're glued to their FUCKING IPHONES CHECKING FACEBOOK (that's a real pet peeve of mine - put the stupid fucking fancy schmancy stupidly expensive phone away and be with the people you're sitting next to!) I know that I would do well to improve my own communication skills - but some folks are a bit ham-fisted when it comes to verbalising the thoughts and feelings in your head and heart. Plus, personally speaking, being a barrel of contradictions doesn't help - and I think that's another problem with my generation - we don't know what we want, how we want to get there if we do, we say one thing but mean another, we don't know what our peers think about the same things, and about ourselves, and things have gotten increasingly more complicated - so I think that leads to a deep-seated sense of frustration and misguidance at a generational level. However, such confusion and contradiction in your own life is NO excuse for looting. Indeed, many if not all people are frustrated and confused, but like we all have violent thoughts, only the extreme minority actually act on them - the looters and rioters, who lack any sense of community, respect, responsibility, and guidance in their lives (as well as a lack of appropriate expression in their skillset) took their problems and used them to fulfil their greed, impatience, and violent natures - and they should be punished appropriately, but strongly, for their stupid actions that caused untold damage and fear to the law abiding vast majority of this nation ... and that's totally unacceptable behaviour. I was frustrated to hear on Newsnight last night the presenter saying 'there's still no apparent reason for the scenes from two weeks ago' - because I think we've gotten to the wider roots of the problem pretty damned quickly, and if these poncy-arsed presenters actually gave a bollocks, or wanted to accept that the problems are caused by wide ranging and troublesome caused that are deep-rooted in society, then such moronic statements wouldn't be strutted around like a "nevermind, just forget about it and determine it's too hard to figure out, so go and buy another HDTV to watch Newsnight on" by news presenters who are just as much a part of the problem as any of these other listed problems. Getting into a bit of a rant here, but whatever.

[Andy]

So did nazi Germany. Look, you're taking the "grass is always greener" to an extreme level and frankly, you don't live in THAT liberal a society, trust me. What's lacking is a sense of real responsibility in many areas of society, from the ground up and as for "morals", they can be changed quicker than a blink of an eye. "morals" are largely bunkum, in my opinion. Of course there would be a better situation if governments would take stock in the "wrongs" of the society that they govern and made better efforts to aid them, but the fact is that government and politics are now largely viewed as careers and not vocations. Far too many people get involved in politics as a career choice, rich in benefit, rather than out of a sense of duty for the common good and government is way too wrapped up in the bosom of large business, that often, the common good gets left far behind. That's not "liberalism", that's "capitalism" and it's led a lot of "Western" countries down the path they find themselves in today. However and I reiterate what I said before, look up the history of China and what the Chinese people had to endure for decades. I'm not talking about the Hong Kong's or the Shanghai's, I mean the poorer areas, especially those that were hit hard in the so called "great leap forward" in which millions died and many more were forced by the government to exist on subsistence farming. Or even take a look at the less harsh aspects, such as the restriction of travel or restriction on ownership rights. You may be somewhat dismayed by the state of England at present...but "China" ain't the way to go. i was waiting for somebody to trot out a nazi reference. Theres a huge difference between fascism and wanting a government that is down to earth, dosnt take all authority from teachers, dosnt take all power away from police officers, dosnt create a open prison system where prisoners are given a life of luxury and then look for excuses when riots like these happen becuase there is absolutly no deterrents whatsoever to the perpretraitors. Look how long it took our government to react to the riots and let the police use the measures they needed, and all these cocky young scumbags that where all over the news saying "we're not scared of the police, we can do what we like" were all nowhere to be seen the moment the police where given access to water cannons and rubber bullets, if these measures had been available straight away, these riots would never have happened and the perpetrators would have been squashed after hours rather than days and many, many decent people wouldnt have lost their homes, jobs and livelihoods. Thats what im talking about when i say responsibility, im not a fascist at all, im all for freedom of speech and a open society, im all for capitalism but you have to accept there is and always will be a section of society that NEEDS to be controlled and will only ever respond to authority. Liberal attitudes in successive governments have failed to control that and allowed it to spread and these riots are the result. China, for all their faults, have a very good grip on this sort of thing and deal with any trouble swiftly and brilliantly. Our government could learn a thing or two from them and that was my point and i beleive that was UndeadChickens point aswell.

[AfterMovieDiner]

They key to everything in life is moderation, from the way you eat, to the way you party, to the way you run your household or the way you run your country. The trouble is that moderation is by definition boring and human beings are erratic, selfish, egotistical, greedy and extreme beings who love a good argument/fight and when you multiply that into a countries politics you end up with these crazy polarising, it's got to be one way or the other situation the two party system allows to flourish. The ideal political structure would be a democratic system with some socialism (police force/fire depts, transport, healthcare, postal service, regulations for banking institutions and credit lenders etc.) so your work force is looked after enough to survive in bad economic times but not too many crazy 'benefits' so people don't just live off the state and then enough of a capitalist free market that it allows people to make money, compete, build business etc. but instead of huge tax breaks, benefits per job created possibly. The only way to do anything is with a little moderation. Extremist should be avoided in all forms by definition they are always going to be VERY wrong some of the time.