 Originally Posted by JDP
You have been shown a bunch of times that your ideas will always end up failing because of the complexities of human nature and psychology. Not all people think or feel alike, not all people agree, not all people behave and respect the rights of others, and so forth. An example was given to you regarding some forms of public transportation, which sooner or later always get damaged by vandals or people who just don't care about public property or that of others, and who end up fucking it up for the rest. I will add here my own example: when I went to high-school we did not have actual mirrors in the bathrooms, we had polished metal sheets in their place. We had to try to comb our hair by looking at a shitty poor reflection of ourselves. Do you know why? Because the school administration got sick and tired of having to replace actual mirrors every few days or so due to the fact that vandals sooner or later would always smash them. And for no reason at all, they "just like doing things like that!", a la Luther from the movie The Warriors. So just because of people like that we all got the "short end of the stick" and had to conform with having to use polished metal plates (which cannot be as easily damaged as glass mirrors; but even then some would still get so banged up by the vandal elements of the school that they too would need replacement, but they did not cost as much to the school as actual mirrors) instead of real mirrors every time we had to stare at our own reflection. Because of people like that who do not give a flying fuck about the rights of others, and as long as they are having fun and getting away with it they will go ahead and do whatever they want, no matter who ends up paying for it. These small-scale examples serve a purpose to teach you a valuable lesson about the human mind and its very complex, multifaceted and unpredictable nature. It is what makes all those ideas of communism and anarchism to eventually and invariably fail: it's human nature, with all its positive and negative sides. It's not "capitalism", or "fascism", or some vast "conspiracy", or what have you. It is the very nature of humans that make such ideas simply a Utopia. No matter what you do, you will always have people who think they are better than others, who think they deserve more than others, who will try to fuck it up for everyone else, who will not cooperate, who will not agree, who will not do their part, who will want more for themselves, who will trample on others, and so forth. Can't take human nature out of the equation, ever. It will always be there working against such Utopian ideals.
Human nature is to form community groups. You've never cited specific sources or case studies proving me wrong. Of course not everyone thinks or feels alike. That's how society is built. Different people bring different traits and skills to help form a larger tapestry of life by working together. That's literally what a society is. Conflict and issues will always arise, yes, but why should that debunk any of my proposals? You know who fucks up public transportation the most? Capitalists. Just think about California in the early 1900s, or any major US city. Oh really? So you sat down with the vandals and talked with them, and that was their reasoning? It could be any number of things. Pretty much everything has a cause. Why don't you feel the need to dig deeper? Also, no. That's a capitalist lie, used to divide us. "Don't think about class disparity and how it unites everyone but us!", our rulers say. "Instead think of THEM, people who aren't like you, who are screwing things up!" Don't fall for it. We vastly outnumber them. We always will. Your anecdote about mirrors is actually a great example of why liberalism's ideals don't work. The administrators tried replacing a malfunctioning piece of equipment with another like it, but the same result happened. To cure an illness you must fight the disease, not just the symptoms. The whole system is screwy, so if we don't address that, then we're doomed to a negative cycle. "The rights of others"? It wasn't your personal mirror at home, it was the school's mirror. They didn't respect the school's rights... to... have unbroken mirrors? Is that a right that a non-sentient building has? Again, if we don't know their motives then we can't address the issue. Maybe if the students had been caught in the act, were told on to their parents, but even then that might not help because perhaps they'd been beaten at home, and felt that violence was an acceptable form of self-expression. We just don't know. What does this teach me about the human mind? That puberty is a volatile time for most? I already knew that. Or that it's not good to beat your kids? (Again we don't know for sure) Already knew that too. I've never brought up a conspiracy. I don't believe in such things. Human nature is also loving, compassionate, imaginative, caring, introspective, curious, etc. What's your point? All I'm still hearing from you is "it'll never work! Because, um... Humans are fallible!" True. Everyone is. Every life form. So? Does that mean we give up? Does that mean we should just bow down to our masters, take it up the ass every day, and act like there's no other options? If you stand for nothing Burr, what will you fall for?
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Originally Posted by EvilNed
I'm sorry, but "the internet, AI, technology" etc are not a very elaborate answer to a very complex issue. They are not magic wands. And no, you haven't explained how the farms would work except with the same "magic wand"-type of explanations. You haven't endeavoured to overcome any of the proven obstacles of all the thing I've listed, except perhaps with what can only be described in my view as very naive beliefs of how human nature and economy works. I get the impression that you're radical in your belief to the point where any rational argument that pinpoints a flaw in any one of your arguments is ignored or met with an emotional outburst that shifts the focus from what we're discussing to capitalism at large. But as long as you cannot calmly explain how your proposed society would work then I will never believe in it, and I take no interest in listening to you. You are simply not read up enough on this issue.
And you're right, why am I still sticking around here? Good point! I'm out.
I agree the issue is complex. But your initial question was not. Listen buddy. I'm not an expert on farms now. How am I supposed to know about how they'll be in the future? Not my department. Well then I'd say you've done a piss-poor job of educating me on these things thus far. Hmm, well I am a bit radical at times, sure, but you can't deny that capitalism has tendrils in like pretty much every facet of Western life. Can you prove me wrong on this? And you're not read up on anything, apparently, so what's your point?
Farewell.
PS: (And this is to both of you/anyone out there) Please watch this excellent video on 28 Days Later in full: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55qijQ4UqCA
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