the nature of evil...

[Mike70]

Oh Scip, i fully understand that in your mind it is an absolute. That doesn't make it a fact though. It IS subjective, murder to you might be manslaughter to another and might be good to even another. I understand that to YOU its evil, ok, to me too killing someone who isn't trying to harm you is wrong, but that doesn't mean our subjective position on said killing is set in stone fact. It just isn't. Can you even admit that? first off we don't need the caps. english is my first language. you still haven't answered my question: why are you incapable of respecting the thoughts of others without engaging in keyboard warriorhood in an effort to prove everyone but you wrong? guess it must be that alpha male thing...

[Khardis]

. The concept of evil that we first worlders accept is a largely civilized and modern one. . that doesn't brook much interpertation. Excellent point, which ties perfectly into what I was trying to say in the now defunct (sadly) post apoc. government thread before it was wrongly closed down. Our morals are set up on the prop of modern comfort, take that away and people revert to their true natures, which is much more bestial and violent. The Joker had it right when he was talking to harvey Dent in Dark Knight, people are only as good as society etc allows them to be. Take away that civility of civilization and introduce a little anarchy and people stop playing nice and start playing mean. The fact that people can deny this and hide behind what I consider a cowardly mode of thinking that things are black and white evil and good drives me insane. first off we don't need the caps. english is my first language. you still haven't answered my question: why are you incapable of respecting the thoughts of others without engaging in keyboard warriorhood in an effort to prove everyone but you wrong? guess it must be that alpha male thing... Your question is off topic and irrelevant. and I WILL cap words i put emphasis on wether you think you need it or not because it is the way I type wether or not you think I need to. Not that I need to explain myself to you, but I have been typing that way since long before joining this forum.

[SRP76]

I don't believe there is any such thing as "good" or "evil". Each person decides what is acceptable for himself, based on outside influence. Everyone turns to a certain authority to tell them what's "evil", whether it be religion, the laws of the land, and right down to the most basic "my mommy told me". We come out of the womb knowing nothing for ourselves; everything comes from someone else. Each person's view of what's "evil" comes from the influences he or she has had during life.

[Mike70]

Your question is off topic and irrelevant. and I WILL cap words i put emphasis on wether you think you need it or not because it is the way I type wether or not you think I need to. Not that I need to explain myself to you, but I have been typing that way since long before joining this forum. well first off, as the thread author i can decide what is relevant or not in a thread that i've created. it isn't off topic. secondly, i'll share a bit of my background, things i usually wouldn't share in a public forum to help you better understand where i am coming from. when i was a young man, i spent 6 months in somalia. i watched people who were starving to death because thugs were stealing their relief food at gun point and killing aid workers. i have seen people blown in small bits and people shot and killed right in front of me. i know what it is like to point a gun at another human being and pull the trigger and to be honest it is the most horrible thing ever. the things i saw and did there 15-16 years ago haunt me and probably will haunt me forever. they probably should. i take that to mean that i still am a real person, capable of feeling empathy for others and capable of knowing that such actions come with a horrible price for both sides. what i took from that experience is a deep repugnance for violence and killing. that is sort of life exp. i am coming from.

[Khardis]

well first off, as the thread author i can decide what is relevant or not in a thread that i've created. it isn't off topic. secondly, i'll share a bit of my background, things i usually wouldn't share in a public forum to help you better understand where i am coming from. when i was a young man, i spent 6 months in somalia. i watched people who were starving to death because thugs were stealing their relief food at gun point and killing aid workers. i have seen people blown in small bits and people shot and killed right in front of me. i know what it is like to point a gun at another human being and pull the trigger and to be honest it is the most horrible thing ever. the things i saw and did there 15-16 years ago haunt me and probably will haunt me forever. they probably should. i take that to mean that i still am a real person, capable of feeling empathy for others and capable of knowing that such actions come with a horrible price for both sides. what i took from that experience is a deep repugnance for violence and killing. that is sort of life exp. i am coming from. The subject at hand is the nature of evil, your question IS irrelevant. Just because you started the thread doesn't give you any meaningful power over it. As for what you said, I also have seen people shredded and destroyed. I grew up in gangland and watched people be shot a number of times, I have been held at gun and knife point and once with a used syringe filed with blood. My experience has taught me that people do what they want to do based on their own personal ethos. I have seen people rob people and think it was a GOOD thing because they were getting even with the rich because the rich were screwing over them, the poor. Of course the person was simply a drug addict. That doesn't change the fact that they were doing what we consider wrong, but they considered right. Your story is interesting and saddening, however that may be though it doesnt change the fact that good and evil are just points of view. Oh and a childhood spent in a place where murder and rape were as common as little league games where most of you grew up has taught me this: People are messed up and they will kill in a heartbeat if they are pushed to it, as such I should be the one pulling the trigger 1st instead of groveling for mercy. I took my beatings and mutilations, some of them were not my fault, some of them were. the one thing I do know though is that no one will victimize me and I will not go down without taking someone with me. Bank on it. If thats evil to you, then so be it. I call it life.

[Bub666]

i was wondering what you guy's take on evil is. what is it? how do people slip toward it? personally, i view evil as a corruption in a person that takes root and grows over time. i consider it to manifest itself in people who: a. are intensely self-centered and self aggrandizing. b. who have no concept of the basic idea of right and wrong. c. have zero empathy for others. show me someone with these three character traits and i'll show you someone evil. i also don't really think that anyone starts out evil. not even hitler, stalin or mao - three of the biggest pieces of trash to walk the earth. they started out just like everybody else, as smiling babies that had no knowledge of anything. something (s) had to happen to them and others like them during the course of their lives that corrupted them to the point where they were able to do the things they did. well, that's my take. oh and by the way, since we've had so much trouble with thread trolls here the last few days, i am going to ask as the thread author that we keep this discussion to your ideas on the nature of evil. what it is and how people get that way. any posts that try to turn this thread into a discussion of anything else, i will ask to be removed.

[clanglee]

Ok. . dammit. . it got personal. This is a great thread with a great topic, why does this kind of thread always have to go this way. Just say what you believe, aregue your point and counter point. Why is this so hard? Why can't we have a dialogue instead of flat out arguement? eh? please. . . In essence, Khardis and I agree on the nature of evil. . but NOT the method of dialogue apparently. Scip, that's a heavy situation you were in man. I feel for you, and I couln't imagine going through that myself. But yes, having the presence of mind to feel remorse and sadness over that situation does indeed mean you have retained your humanity. Humanity. . .there is another concept of the modern mind that is actually closely linked to ones view on the nature of evil. I believe that the cultures of a more philisophical bent, that have more self awareness as it were, have a more clearly defined(and more clearly enforced) sense of what is evil. The more "primative" cultures often share many basic ideals as most humans, but they often have traditions and rights that would be considered ghastly and quite evil to many "civilized" people. Humanity, while I would love to believe is a set and unchangable concept, is unfortunately as subjective as the nature of evil. And around and around we go. There is no answer to some things. Unfortunately. . .it's the important questions that have no good answer.

[SymphonicX]

I don't believe there is any such thing as "good" or "evil". Each person decides what is acceptable for himself, based on outside influence. Everyone turns to a certain authority to tell them what's "evil", whether it be religion, the laws of the land, and right down to the most basic "my mommy told me". We come out of the womb knowing nothing for ourselves; everything comes from someone else. Each person's view of what's "evil" comes from the influences he or she has had during life. Basically exactly what I was going to say. I think the notion of "true evil" is something given to us from religion...I think the worst kind of person is mentally ill to the point of being dangerous to themselves or others, be this through a subtle narcissistic tendency or a full blown delusion of granduer - factors that are often assosciated with evil people. I think these tendencies are obviously a bi-product of our experiences as children and developing adults, and sometimes as fully blown adults...but I believe it's a learned way of being...every warped person gets warped from some outside factor or illness rather than arbitrarily choosing to be murderers or whatever...

[Trencher]

the one thing I do know though is that no one will victimize me and I will not go down without taking someone with me. Bank on it. If thats evil to you, then so be it. I don't think anyone call that evil. But on the other hand "what is evil" is not an irelevant question because "it just different points of view" you can discuss different points of view. I am glad this thread is still going though. What do you think about the East and the west different views on the concept of evil? In the west evil and good are seen as oposing forces, while in the east good and evil are seen as an distortion in balance. I simplify but I think I lean towards the eastern.

[Khardis]

I don't think anyone call that evil. But on the other hand "what is evil" is not an irelevant question because "it just different points of view" you can discuss different points of view. I am glad this thread is still going though. What do you think about the East and the west different views on the concept of evil? In the west evil and good are seen as oposing forces, while in the east good and evil are seen as an distortion in balance. I simplify but I think I lean towards the eastern. I think the east and west both have it wrong, evil isn't real in any meaningful relationship to reality. Not any more so than say Santa Clause or Ghosts.

[Trencher]

Why dont you belive in evil as a concept? It is just a way to describe a set of ideas or thought patterns, it is not like anybody says that evil have some kind of independent existence like ghosts or santa claus would have if they were real.

[Khardis]

Why dont you belive in evil as a concept? It is just a way to describe a set of ideas or thought patterns, it is not like anybody says that evil have some kind of independent existence like ghosts or santa claus would have if they were real. Actually a number of people say and believe that. And I do believe in evil as a description-concept as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts you probably didn't read.

[Trencher]

And I do believe in evil as a description-concept as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts you probably didn't read. My position is then that this discussion about what the concept entails is relevant.

[Khardis]

My position is then that this discussion about what the concept entails is relevant. evil as a concept is irrelevant. Its a useful term like saying something is beautiful. What is beautiful to some isn't to others and may be downright ugly to others. You cannot say this conversation about evil as a concept is relevant because evil as a concept isn't real unless you are saying that liquid terms are no longer liquid and are black and white.

[Trencher]

evil as a concept is irrelevant. Its a useful term like saying something is beautiful. What is beautiful to some isn't to others and may be downright ugly to others. I see you point but even but if peoples reasonig about what is beautifull or evil might differ it does not make it impossible that some of them are right acording to objective reality. Just dismissing the notion outright because it is hard to quantify does not serve any purpose. People dont need to agree with something for that thing to be right.