In Defense Of George A. Romero. (long read)

[Yojimbo]

But cholo wasn't thinking clearly. The whole thing happened in a matter of hours. He was vengefull and wanted revenge on Kaufman. If this was a plan of his for a while his stupidity would be unfounded. As for the citizens the money was a security blanket. It was how society devided its ruling class from the servants. In a society that emerged from one freshly destroyed its somewhat possible that money would be used for explotation and trade. However the more likely scenario would be money slowly replaced by trade or bartering as society fell or become more prominent as it recovered. If credit cards were all you knew what would you use and be more comfortable with? Money or physical goods? Hey ZombieNihilist, I see we have sucked you into arguing about the minutiae that exists in a GAR film. Quite fun stuff, isn't it? Welcome to the boards, brother, you'll fit in just fine here.

[EvilNed]

If my inability to cope with the idea of a dead rotting body doing something that many SCUBA-certified individuals couldn't do with appropriate weights and breathing apparatus constitutes obsessing on stupid details, then what ISN'T a "stupid" detail? I was never, ever bothered by it. Infact, I think it's a cool detail and it enhances the so called "enjoyable cinematic experience", that you claim that GAR missed.

[Trin]

I was never, ever bothered by it. Infact, I think it's a cool detail and it enhances the so called "enjoyable cinematic experience", that you claim that GAR missed. I'm with Wyldwraith on this one. When they performed this miracle of underwater navigation I just threw my hands up and said, "Oh, come on!!" What really irritated me was that the army guy says that the zombies cannot cross the river (which assumedly had been true for years) and then all of a sudden they can. So it was their intellect holding them back? Not that they can't swim and can barely walk on land? Please. And I should believe that the river has served as a barrier simply because they have never tried before because they were too stupid? If anything their stupidity would've facilitated their attempts. We know they tend to walk straight into obstacles. In Dawn we saw a zombie walk into helicopter blades and decapitate itself. Why would they stop at a river? They would've walked straight off the dock, into the water, and not even noticed they were wet. Then they'd get swept away with the current. I can believe that smart zombies would find a way across the river, but let them find a way that makes sense.

[EvilNed]

In Dawn we saw a zombie walk into helicopter blades and decapitate itself. Why would they stop at a river? They would've walked straight off the dock, into the water, and not even noticed they were wet. Then they'd get swept away with the current. Dawn was a different movie, and the zombies acted differently in that one. Who says that the exact same zombie rules apply in both films?

[DubiousComforts]

What really irritated me was that the army guy says that the zombies cannot cross the river (which assumedly had been true for years) and then all of a sudden they can. Why put so much stock into what the "army guy" says as being fact? None of the characters in these films are experts on the phenomena and if anything, it's a good example of a false sense of security. In DAY, the living dead wait patiently at the edge of the elevator platform until it reached the bottom of the shaft rather than just plunge off the side, so it's safe to assume that they possess some type of distance/depth perception. The helicopter blade zombie in DAWN was in pursuit of a human when it walked into the rotating blades, so its perception had been compromised by the instinct to attack. Who knows if it would have even comprehended the helicopter blades as being dangerous regardless.

[SRP76]

Why put so much stock into what the "army guy" says as being fact? None of the characters in these films are experts on the phenomena and if anything, it's a good example of a false sense of security. If zombies had been able to cross the river, they would have known it. There would have been zombies strolling down their streets.

[DubiousComforts]

If zombies had been able to cross the river, they would have known it. There would have been zombies strolling down their streets. How do you know there weren't? If a few zombies had gotten through in this way, they would have been dispatched already (prior to a "secure" city being shown to the audience). The characters wouldn't have known where these zombies had come from unless they had actually witnessed one emerging from the water. Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean it didn't happen. The difference is that Big Daddy led a large group to the water, which was shown for the sake of telling the story.

[SRP76]

How do you know there weren't? If a few zombies had gotten through in this way, they would have been dispatched already (prior to a "secure" city being shown to the audience). The characters wouldn't have known where these zombies had come from unless they had actually witnessed one emerging from the water. Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean it didn't happen. The difference is that Big Daddy led a large group to the water, which was shown for the sake of telling the story. The soldiers would know about any zombies, because they are the ones that deal with them. And Kaufman would certainly know about it; nothing goes without his knowledge. If zombies could get across the river, they would have been doing it every day. If something happens frequently, nobody's going to think "it can't be done".

[Yojimbo]

Not that I think it is plausible for someone to walk across the bottom of a swift moving river, but suspending that disbelief and assuming that a ghoul could come across, then the question becomes why other zombies did not do this before, or why the zombies weren't doing this more often. Perhaps the errant, occasional zombie managed to make it across the river from time to time, only to be dispatched by the soldiers on guard. I am assuming that a zombie would from time to time pop up on the riverbanks which is one of the reasons why they had armed men stationed there with searchlights (the other reason being to detect "living" river crossers who might try to inflitrate the green zone). Realistically, it would seem believable that a zombie or two must have at least floated across the river from time to time. The difference with Big Daddy's arrival was that it was massive as opposed to a lone ghoul or two coming across, and there were two, really undisciplined stoners manning that guardpost who were surpised by the massive onslaught. The soldiers were never anticipating that such a large contingent of the undead would suddenly make it across en masse.

[darth los]

What really irritated me was that the army guy says that the zombies cannot cross the river (which assumedly had been true for years) and then all of a sudden they can. So it was their intellect holding them back? Not that they can't swim and can barely walk on land? Please. O.K. First off guys, if we're looking for consistency from the dead films we're going to be sorely disapointed. Gar struggles to maintain consistency in the same film so forget about the series. Sometimes they shamble, sometimes they run. Sometime they're weak and listless, sometimes they can rip you head off. I guess it depends on his mood that day. I'm resigned to the fact that the"rules" change to fit GAR'S purposes for the moment. Or that film. Dawn was a different movie, and the zombies acted differently in that one. Who says that the exact same zombie rules apply in both films? This is sort of a continuation from the above comment. I truly believe the point you made. GAR'S been saying it all along that these are seperate movies. These are different outbreaks and different zombies. But we go on about timeline discussions and what not. If you notice, in every film the zombies are a little different and the scenarios such as the first days of the outbreak and virtual armegeddon couldn't be more diverse. At the end of NOTLD it's obvious that the situation was under control. Then we come to dawn and society is falling apart. The question has often been asked, "how did it get so out of control?" Well, perhaps they're just alternate realities that have nothing to do with one another. It's as good an explanation as any I've heard. Think about it. Other than zombies, is there anything at all linking the films? I can't remember any off the top of my head. If zombies had been able to cross the river, they would have known it. There would have been zombies strolling down their streets. That i agree with as well. I might not be a psychologist. But dealing with people everyday in my line of work i feel i can predict human behavior to a degree. Just having to deal with the ghouls on a daily basis you would get a sense of their tendancies. So for them to all of a sudden be able to do that seems off. Remember evolution happens SLOWLY. You just don't discover fire one day and discover the human genome the next. The soldiers would know about any zombies, because they are the ones that deal with them. And Kaufman would certainly know about it; nothing goes without his knowledge. If zombies could get across the river, they would have been doing it every day. If something happens frequently, nobody's going to think "it can't be done". Exactly.

[clanglee]

Why put so much stock into what the "army guy" says as being fact? None of the characters in these films are experts on the phenomena and if anything, it's a good example of a false sense of security. In DAY, the living dead wait patiently at the edge of the elevator platform until it reached the bottom of the shaft rather than just plunge off the side, so it's safe to assume that they possess some type of distance/depth perception. The helicopter blade zombie in DAWN was in pursuit of a human when it walked into the rotating blades, so its perception had been compromised by the instinct to attack. Who knows if it would have even comprehended the helicopter blades as being dangerous regardless. If I recall correctly. . in that scene of DAY, the zombies were first of all centering on the middle of the lift in attempt to get at Miguel. Then as the lift was making its way down one zombie did indeed fall off the lift.

[EvilNed]

If I recall correctly. . in that scene of DAY, the zombies were first of all centering on the middle of the lift in attempt to get at Miguel. Then as the lift was making its way down one zombie did indeed fall off the lift. Just as some occasional zombie might fall into the river. As the movie clearly states, the zombies didn't get anywhere by preying around the humans city, because they just got shot. So that explains it. There's no inconsistancy in the zombies not going into the river. Infact, the zombies had probably just never tried it. If anyone missed it, Land actually shows the zombies having some brains, so no, they're not the guided missiles of most zombie fictions. They think that "Hey, this is is a steep fall", and they avoid it, probably trying to find some way around instead.

[DubiousComforts]

Perhaps the errant, occasional zombie managed to make it across the river from time to time, only to be dispatched by the soldiers on guard. I am assuming that a zombie would from time to time pop up on the riverbanks which is one of the reasons why they had armed men stationed there with searchlight. Realistically, it would seem believable that a zombie or two must have at least floated across the river from time to time. The difference with Big Daddy's arrival was that it was massive as opposed to a lone ghoul or two coming across My points exactly, Yojimbo, and anyone that requires further reasoning beyond this in order to suspend disbelief should probably stop watching "living dead" movies. If I recall correctly. . in that scene of DAY, the zombies were first of all centering on the middle of the lift in attempt to get at Miguel. Then as the lift was making its way down one zombie did indeed fall off the lift. There were many more zombies than could comfortably fit on that lift. There should have been dozens pouring into the opening as per the zombie-walks-into-the-rotating-blades logic, not just one uncoordinated corpse stumbling a few feet to the ground.

[Thorn]

I have to say that I think that they would have had to deal with occasional zombies coming ashore, they likely were not counting an army of them. Because of currents and it was a natural obstacle. People jumping into the river to kill themselves would end up somewhere, either out to sea or on a shore so they would need to clean up and watch for this. Even the occasional zombie-Klutz who just fell in. That said leaving one side of the city unsecured is kind of crazy. You would at least plan for it a bit better I would think. My problem is that if you throw a bunch of rotting corpses into the water even ones that can move under their own power the strong currents and water life is going to do things that make getting from point a to point be very hard. More over the bottom of a river is not a highway there are obstacles. Yet Big daddy and his undead army come up on the other side in formation neat as you please. There is no way this would have happened. Visibility, the current, the obstacles, all of it would have prevented this. It is not a show stopper for me but I have to say I hated it when I saw it. Now maybe they never tried the water because they were unsure of how to traverse it, but once big daddy showed them it was okay they did not have a fear of it. Fear is a good thing it keeps you safe it is something we all deal with, so maybe they retained a fear of the unknown and avoided it. Then when directed to to they faced the fear and came up on the other side. It just wouldn't have been a "walk in the park" and while it looked cool in the movie, it was for me anyway one of those moments where I went "yeah.. oh...okay ... sure" and that ruins immersion.

[clanglee]

That i agree with as well. I might not be a psychologist. But dealing with people everyday in my line of work i feel i can predict human behavior to a degree. Just having to deal with the ghouls on a daily basis you would get a sense of their tendancies. So for them to all of a sudden be able to do that seems off. Remember evolution happens SLOWLY. You just don't discover fire one day and discover the human genome the next. : Not to mention that evolution doesn't occur at all in one generation of a species. Expecially a species that can't reproduce to pass on it's genetic code at all. Evolution is the wrong word to use with zombies. Dead things can't evolve. what they did in land is . . remember? progress? Of course you know I have a problem with a rotting brain making any sort of foward progression. . but damn. .havn't we been over this before? It all sounds quite familiar.