GAR Intelligent Zombies - Bub vs. Big Daddy

[Trin]

A few weeks back we nudged up against the topic of Bub vs. Big Daddy. Since then I have been giving a lot of thought to intelligent zombies in GAR movies. The Big Question: - Were Bub and Big Daddy very much alike or fundamentally different? Arguments for alike: - Both displayed intelligence and behavior at a higher level than their zombie peers. - Both showed a cognitive ability to manipulate their environment - i.e. problem solving abilities. - Both communicated with humans beyond just trying to eat them. - Both showed a diminished (or non-existent) need to pursue/eat humans on sight. Arguments for different: - Bub was driven/enticed by the need to feed. Big Daddy showed no inclination to feed even when presented with food. - Bub was trained & conditioned by Dr. Logan. Big Daddy's higher level behavior had no visible catalyst. - Bub paid no attention to other zombies. Big Daddy was highly empathetic to other zombies. Another question is whether Bub and/or Big Daddy were really *that* much more intelligent than their peers. There is a lot of evidence that other zombies were learning: - The captured zombies in Day began to avoid the zombie pen gates. - The wandering zombies in Land didn't come around the Green electric fences anymore. - The Uniontown zombies in Land learned quickly with a little Big Daddy prompting. - The horde of zombies in Land began to ignore food sources in their pursuit of Fiddler's Green. - The horde of zombies in Land learned to ignore the fireworks without prompting. - The Hari Krishna zombie in Dawn chose to go up the stairs rather than pursue Stephen. - The pit fighter zombies learned to fight over food rather than just lunging for the closest human. I have another hypothesis to throw into the mix. I think a lot of us work from the assumption that Bub was just any old zombie pulled from the pen and trained by Dr. Logan to behave. And that makes him fundamentally different from Big Daddy because he was merely trained while Big Daddy was independently intelligent. Well, what if Bub wasn't just any old zombie? What if Logan had tried to train dozens or even hundreds of zombies prior to Bub, and Bub was the ONLY zombie he'd ever succeeded in training? It stands to reason he would've tried to train others. And it stands to reason he failed since we only have Bub. So it may be that Bub was very much like Big Daddy and all Logan did was identify it. I had always taken the stance that Bub and Big Daddy were fundamentally different. After careful consideration I've concluded that I am torn on the topic. So... discuss. And try to be civil. I'd rather this not turn into a thread to bag on intelligent zombies or any movie in particular.

[Slain]

I think it's misnomer to call zombies unintelligent creatures. If you invented an autonomous robot that could find, fix, and destroy enemy personnel without any outside direction, you could make a fortune selling them to the U.S. Army. Zombies as portrayed in the movies could be used as a weapons system with a little planning. Uses that come to mind for zombies; area denial weapon to protect a site from looters, scouts to locate living humans, and shock troops you could move behind as they destroy resistance ahead of you. I'm sure some people would consider using zombies for anything dirty pool, but hey, to the victor goes the spoils of the shopping mall.

[clanglee]

My main problem with Big Daddy wasn't so much the fact that he was intelligent, but the fact that he could impart semi-complicated messages and lessons to the rest of the zombie horde without any use of language.

[blind2d]

An excellent point, clang. also, i think the hare krishna zed wasn't really more intelligent, just chose a random path and stumbled over Frankie in the Box Room. - 2D I agree with the blue-haired man.

[Arcades057]

So much for: "These creatures are nothing more than pure, motorized instinct...."

[SRP76]

So much for: "These creatures are nothing more than pure, motorized instinct...." That's exactly why I hate both Bub and Big Daddy. They both go against the already-established "rule". Romero broke his own rules just to try to play the old, tired, "zombies are just like us, only better, because people suck and should hate themselves" tune. A tune that I personally can't stand.

[sandrock74]

That's exactly why I hate both Bub and Big Daddy. They both go against the already-established "rule". Romero broke his own rules just to try to play the old, tired, "zombies are just like us, only better, because people suck and should hate themselves" tune. A tune that I personally can't stand. Yeah, I feel no pity or understanding for zombies. Period.

[Arcades057]

I've always felt that GAR was reacting to what other people were doing with ghouls in general. For instance--with Big Daddy and the whole "they're learning" thing in Land, it felt to me like GAR saw what was going on in the Dawn remake and felt that he had to take his own ghouls to the next level somehow. But, he went with intelligence instead of strength and speed.

[sandrock74]

At least he didn't go with zombies sparkling in the sunlight!

[Wyldwraith]

At least he didn't go with zombies sparkling in the sunlight! Hey now, While the movie version of Twilight leaves something to be desired, the four-book series it's based on are exceptionally well-written, and do a better job of depicting the so-called "humane vampire" than any of the host of sentimental drivel-movies that have come before it. Rip on the movie if you want, but leave the books out of it. Photoluminescent vampires are a damned sight better than running wall-crawling zombies.

[krakenslayer]

Yeah, I feel no pity or understanding for zombies. Period. If you're unable to feel any sense of empathy or pity for them, then that's a failing of your imagination, not necessarily Romero's. I'm not saying you have to "root for the zombies", but if you can glimpse the full horror of a zombie's existence - the mental remnants of something that was once an intelligent, sentient being now trapped in a rotting, retarded shell racked with an all encompassing hunger - if such a creature had even the slightest intelligence in order to grasp the terror of its situation... putting yourself in those shoes is a hundred times more terrifying than fighting a horde of monsters with a machinegun. Setting the slightly awkward depiction of Big Daddy aside (who, basically, was just badly-acted), I think the biggest problem with "smart zombies" is people's unwillingness to step outside of their imaginative comfort zone. A lot of zombie fans are attracted to the genre purely because they like the idea of being able to freely shoot and kill things without any legal or moral issues. They're uncomfortable with anything that isn't straightforward black-and-white, us-and-them, cowboys-and-injuns. Heaven forbid GAR actually complicate matters by rising above this. And "pure motorised instinct" was never an established "rule" anyway. It was mentioned by one scientist, but even in Dawn, the zombies show signs of memory and basic thought-processes. I'm not saying we should all be "friends" with the zombies and skip through the meadows holding hands with them. But I like the added dimension of horror that the thing you are about to blow away was once your friend or your neighbour... and on some half-forgotten level, they still are. That's fucking scary!

[sandrock74]

If you're unable to feel any sense of empathy or pity for them, then that's a failing of your imagination, not necessarily Romero's. I'm not saying you have to "root for the zombies", but if you can glimpse the full horror of a zombie's existence - the mental remnants of something that was once an intelligent, sentient being now trapped in a rotting, retarded shell racked with an all encompassing hunger - if such a creature had even the slightest intelligence in order to grasp the terror of its situation... putting yourself in those shoes is a hundred times more terrifying than fighting a horde of monsters with a machinegun. Setting the slightly awkward depiction of Big Daddy aside (who, basically, was just badly-acted), I think the biggest problem with "smart zombies" is people's unwillingness to step outside of their imaginative comfort zone. A lot of zombie fans are attracted to the genre purely because they like the idea of being able to freely shoot and kill things without any legal or moral issues. They're uncomfortable with anything that isn't straightforward black-and-white, us-and-them, cowboys-and-injuns. Heaven forbid GAR actually complicate matters by rising above this. And "pure motorised instinct" was never an established "rule" anyway. It was mentioned by one scientist, but even in Dawn, the zombies show signs of memory and basic thought-processes. I'm not saying we should all be "friends" with the zombies and skip through the meadows holding hands with them. But I like the added dimension of horror that the thing you are about to blow away was once your friend or your neighbour... and on some half-forgotten level, they still are. That's fucking scary! I've got plenty of imagination, thanks. I make comic books...it's not exactly for the unimaginitive. Anyway, no, I tend not to feel empathy for anything trying to kill me. In a situation like that it's kill or be killed. Primal survival instincts take control in such a situation. The human will to survive far exceeds that of a zombie...the only "advantage" zombies have is in sheer number...which actually works against most of them ever getting a hot meal if you think about it. Empathy for a zombie will only shorten one's lifespan. I don't blame myself or Romero for my refusing to feel empathy for zombies. I blame the situation. Anything that wants to eat me, isn't getting me without a fight! Should Quint have felt empathy for Jaws as he slid down the boat, into the sharks mouth? Should Luke Skywalker have felt empathy for the Great Pit of Carkoon that he was going to be tossed down into? Or the Wampa on Hoth? Should humanity have felt empathy for the lizard aliens in V? Of course not!! ZOMBIES ARE NOT HUMAN! They are dead! They want to eat you. I'll let you go feel empathy for them while I work on keeping myself alive, thanks.

[bassman]

But, he went with intelligence instead of strength and speed. This would make sense....but I believe the script for Land was started long before the dawn remake was even thought of. And Bub was intelligent, so that was definitely before Dawn04. My opinion on the two "smart" zombies is this..... Bub could do what he did because Logan was the catalyst and brought those memories back to him. Big Daddy was the same as Bub, but took a longer time to "remember" the memories because a human didn't help him push it forward. As for being sympathetic for the dead....I've always felt that way. I thought of that the first time I saw Day(my first dead film) and I knew it was intended when I later saw Dawn and the certain "awwwww" scenes that are there...

[krakenslayer]

I've got plenty of imagination, thanks. I make comic books...it's not exactly for the unimaginitive. Anyway, no, I tend not to feel empathy for anything trying to kill me. In a situation like that it's kill or be killed. Primal survival instincts take control in such a situation. The human will to survive far exceeds that of a zombie...the only "advantage" zombies have is in sheer number...which actually works against most of them ever getting a hot meal if you think about it. Empathy for a zombie will only shorten one's lifespan. I don't blame myself or Romero for my refusing to feel empathy for zombies. I blame the situation. Anything that wants to eat me, isn't getting me without a fight! Should Quint have felt empathy for Jaws as he slid down the boat, into the sharks mouth? Should Luke Skywalker have felt empathy for the Great Pit of Carkoon that he was going to be tossed down into? Or the Wampa on Hoth? Should humanity have felt empathy for the lizard aliens in V? Of course not!! ZOMBIES ARE NOT HUMAN! They are dead! They want to eat you. I'll let you go feel empathy for them while I work on keeping myself alive, thanks. The world (and Romero's world) isn't as clear cut as that. Just because I feel sorry King Kong doesn't mean I think they should have let him destroy New York. Just because Dracula (in the novel) has sympathetic qualities doesn't mean I think he should be left free to feast on maidens and terrorize the countryside. The world isn't split into two sets of people who either feel empathy and are unable to defend themselves, or are butch heroes with no sense of compassion. If a mindless zombie was trying to tear your heart out, I wouldn't expect you to want to give it a hug. On the other hand, if you were being attacked by your beloved family pet dog gone rabid and were forced to shoot it in self-defence, I would expect you to feel a pang of regret knowing that somewhere behind that slobbering, snarling facade lies some vestige of the sweet, friendly little pooch you raised from puppyhood. It wouldn't stop you from doing what had to be done, but it would make the act itself a little more disturbing, especially in the aftermath. To me, that's a major factor in what makes Romero's zombies so scary - they exhibit behaviour suggesting that somewhere inside the rotting shell of your dead friends and neighbours, there is some retarded vestige of that individual's personality, and yet you have no choice but to kill them. This has been a factor in the films since the beginning, it's what sets these films apart. Sure, perhaps Big Daddy was a step too far, but overall if it wasn't for the disturbing "human factor", the zombies might as well be replaced with alligators or something. Speaking of which, all the examples you gave are of ferocious monsters which bear no resemblance to humans and exhibit no human traits. I understand if you wish zombies were like that - it would make for a more free and easy gun totin' time - but Romero's zombies have always been like a frighteningly close parody of human life. Oh, and the shark in Jaws doesn't have a name.

[sandrock74]

The world (and Romero's world) isn't as clear cut as that. Just because I feel sorry King Kong doesn't mean I think they should have let him destroy New York. Just because Dracula (in the novel) has sympathetic qualities doesn't mean I think he should be left free to feast on maidens and terrorize the countryside. The world isn't split into two sets of people who either feel empathy and are unable to defend themselves, or are butch heroes with no sense of compassion. If a mindless zombie was trying to tear your heart out, I wouldn't expect you to want to give it a hug. On the other hand, if you were being attacked by your beloved family pet dog gone rabid and were forced to shoot it in self-defence, I would expect you to feel a pang of regret knowing that somewhere behind that slobbering, snarling facade lies some vestige of the sweet, friendly little pooch you raised from puppyhood. It wouldn't stop you from doing what had to be done, but it would make the act itself a little more disturbing, especially in the aftermath. To me, that's a major factor in what makes Romero's zombies so scary - they exhibit behaviour suggesting that somewhere inside the rotting shell of your dead friends and neighbours, there is some retarded vestige of that individual's personality, and yet you have no choice but to kill them. This has been a factor in the films since the beginning, it's what sets these films apart. Sure, perhaps Big Daddy was a step too far, but overall if it wasn't for the disturbing "human factor", the zombies might as well be replaced with alligators or something. Speaking of which, all the examples you gave are of ferocious monsters which bear no resemblance to humans and exhibit no human traits. I understand if you wish zombies were like that - it would make for a more free and easy gun totin' time - but Romero's zombies have always been like a frighteningly close parody of human life. Oh, and the shark in Jaws doesn't have a name. Yeah, I'd feel bad about putting down my rabid family dog afterwards...not during. Like Seth Gecko said in From Dusk till Dawn, "Fight now, cry later!" I don't think I would feel too bad about shooting a zombie neighbor. They would already be dead. I wouldn't be the one killing them, I'm just the one with the unwanted task of ending their threat. You'd need to look at it as such just to maintain a grip on your sanity. By the way, the shark from Jaws did have a name...Spielberg and crew named the robot shark Bruce.