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Thread: Who said these bastards were rehabilitated (Bulger murder)

  1. #31
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    What he did when he was 10 years old was barbaric.
    What he's doing as an adult is barbaric.

    Doesn't fill me with any of this vengeance crap that some of you are happy to be part of, and it certainly doesn't inspire me to brandish a pitchfork and take part in a witchhunt.

    What really scares me is not this guy being released, not even both of them being released with new identities.

    What scares me is the cyclical nature of humanity and society in general who can see that this idea of exacting grisly retribution is the way forward, rather than backward.

    What also scares me is that no attempt or hint is ever made towards stopping these sort of monsters from developing through childhood. Not one. We'd far more rather wait for kids to be turned into absolute fucking evil little shits so we can then hunt them down, whilst ignoring their parents, and beat our chests over and over and over because this is far easier.

    Far, far easier.

    Do I want to see two ten year old boys executed? No. Do I want to see even the adult version executed? no, although I realise that may actually be best for them not because of what they have done, but because of the unrelenting brutality that is displayed not by the murderers themselves, but from people who are supposed to know better.

    Sorry, controversial, I'm coming down on the side of the kid-killers! Or so it seems.
    The reality is that really I'm coming down AGAINST the side of mainstream society who are so hateful, vengeful, and emotional that they would act like this. The lack of understanding or will to understand the root causes of problems like these is overshadowed by the irrational behaviour of the pubilc who cannot get over that these murders were commited by boys who didn't even have the ability to read or write properly.

    but we can keep aiming our hate at the killers themselves because it gives us the perfect excuse to ignore the fact that the way our society functions right now, is the perfect breeding ground for murderous monsters like these to be created.

    Where is the media pressure on families to bring their kids up properly? Where are the campaigns highlighting the dangers of bad parenting? Where is any kind of intervention beyond a government level and on a SOCIETAL one? Where is it? It doesn't exist.

    So we can keep going round in circles trying to punish and repunish those who have committed these heinous crimes in history or we can, collectively, put our efforts into minimising the effects of bad education and poverty on the lower classes, whilst also trying to instill a sense of community back into our towns whereby monsters like John Venables are rooted out at an early age and dealt with properly.

    sorry. ramble.
    Innocent victims of merciless crimes, fall prey to some madman's impulsive designs.

    Step after step we try controlling our fate. When we finally start living, it's become too late.

  2. #32
    Walking Dead Legion2213's Avatar
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    Symphonic, if this scumbag had been jailed for life (meaning life), you probably wouldn't see the sort of comments that disturb you, because justice would have been seen to be done.

    It's cases like this when evil people are given many chances and the law bends over backwards to protect them that people start saying crazy things.

    Example: You don't see too many posts on here or elsewhere about "The Yorkshire Ripper" do you? Why? Because he will die in prison, people know he will die in prison, so they are content that justice has been served to the maximum that we allow in the UK.
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

  3. #33
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    they have a guy in custody who two years ago nearly killed someone working at a gas station by stabbing him. no motive either. even told the guy have a nice night.



    then he gets let out and last week he asked a guy who was finishing up work if he had some change for him. the guy said no and was stabbed to death. how the FUCK do u give someone a second chance after u nearly killed someone the first time?

  4. #34
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    I'm sickened by so much of this,
    Yes, we need to work harder on both finding new means of protecting society from predators and refining existing methods to close many existing loopholes and inconsistencies that allow dangerous individuals to be released after serving only a small fraction of their sentence.

    Even so, that's NOT ENOUGH. We've built a punitive punishment & deterrent-based justice system. Now we're finding that neither the promised deterrent effect OR the harsh punitive methods of our prisons are working as we envisioned.

    Angered by this, many clamor for "justice with finality"....aka retaliatory State-sanctioned murder. Does executing the predators solve the problem of what to do with the predators we've already caught, insofar as protecting society from any further harm by them work? Yes. Unfortunately, capital punishment is not now, nor has it ever been an effective deterrent...which after all, is the primary goal. Dealing with 1 individual who's already done their damage does NOTHING to prevent more and more and more sick fucks from going out and doing the same sorts of vile acts we wish to execute the monsters we've caught for.

    If Capital Punishment fails as a deterrent/preventative measure, as every damned study done seems to indicate, then all it becomes is revenge/retaliation that does nothing to help society with the primary problem. What problem? The creation of ever more monsters of this sort with every passing year.

    Call it liberal pap if you like, but if we don't go to the heart of the problem by working to eliminate the environments that help to shape these screwed up individuals, we will NEVER stem the rising tide of vicious barbarism that threatens to drown us in its depravity.

    What we do once the criminal has already been shaped into the twisted caricature of a human being that desires to perform these depraved acts of violence is simply cleaning up the spilled blood. It does next to nothing to reduce the amount of innocent blood being spilled.

    History has taught us that much. The 1800s legal system hung criminals for pretty much everything we consider a serious felony, even non-violent thefts. It made executions into spectacles, theorizing as authorities had for centuries that displaying the consequences of crimes would deter future potential offenders.

    The result? One of the most violent, revenge-oriented, unjust periods of American history.

    We've tried the "Hang 'em High!" approach, and all it did was make death into some sort of macabre spectacle. Then as now, it did and still would CREATE far more killers than it deterred, if for no other reason than our sick society's emphasis on fame-at-any-cost.

    Even without the draconian and methodical expansion of the Retaliatory Justice system, we already need Son of Sam laws to prevent killers from cashing in on the celebrity-status their crimes have given them.

    Can anyone honestly and factually support a line of reasoning that can explain why returning to a more execution-friendly system wouldn't explosively expand the Serial Killer As Celebrity phenomena?

    If you can't find a means of convincing society to cast aside such ghoulishly bestowed celebrity to these predators, it doesn't matter if you create autonomous roving death squads. You STILL won't have a significant impact on capital crimes.

    All this is FAR more complicated than the tried-and-not-true method of Execute Them All, Let God Sort Them Out. I wish more people would understand that.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion2213 View Post
    Symphonic, if this scumbag had been jailed for life (meaning life), you probably wouldn't see the sort of comments that disturb you, because justice would have been seen to be done.

    It's cases like this when evil people are given many chances and the law bends over backwards to protect them that people start saying crazy things.

    Example: You don't see too many posts on here or elsewhere about "The Yorkshire Ripper" do you? Why? Because he will die in prison, people know he will die in prison, so they are content that justice has been served to the maximum that we allow in the UK.
    Yeah fair enough, I see your point.

    Perhaps then the issue, like immigration, isn't with the subjects at hand rather than the system that puts them there - or in this case, doesn't - people seem to be confusing their issues with the justice system and their hate for a murderer - seems like the cause should be taken to the government rather than calling for murder themselves...

    ---------- Post added at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    I'm sickened by so much of this,
    Yes, we need to work harder on both finding new means of protecting society from predators and refining existing methods to close many existing loopholes and inconsistencies that allow dangerous individuals to be released after serving only a small fraction of their sentence.

    Even so, that's NOT ENOUGH. We've built a punitive punishment & deterrent-based justice system. Now we're finding that neither the promised deterrent effect OR the harsh punitive methods of our prisons are working as we envisioned.

    Angered by this, many clamor for "justice with finality"....aka retaliatory State-sanctioned murder. Does executing the predators solve the problem of what to do with the predators we've already caught, insofar as protecting society from any further harm by them work? Yes. Unfortunately, capital punishment is not now, nor has it ever been an effective deterrent...which after all, is the primary goal. Dealing with 1 individual who's already done their damage does NOTHING to prevent more and more and more sick fucks from going out and doing the same sorts of vile acts we wish to execute the monsters we've caught for.

    If Capital Punishment fails as a deterrent/preventative measure, as every damned study done seems to indicate, then all it becomes is revenge/retaliation that does nothing to help society with the primary problem. What problem? The creation of ever more monsters of this sort with every passing year.

    Call it liberal pap if you like, but if we don't go to the heart of the problem by working to eliminate the environments that help to shape these screwed up individuals, we will NEVER stem the rising tide of vicious barbarism that threatens to drown us in its depravity.

    What we do once the criminal has already been shaped into the twisted caricature of a human being that desires to perform these depraved acts of violence is simply cleaning up the spilled blood. It does next to nothing to reduce the amount of innocent blood being spilled.

    History has taught us that much. The 1800s legal system hung criminals for pretty much everything we consider a serious felony, even non-violent thefts. It made executions into spectacles, theorizing as authorities had for centuries that displaying the consequences of crimes would deter future potential offenders.

    The result? One of the most violent, revenge-oriented, unjust periods of American history.

    We've tried the "Hang 'em High!" approach, and all it did was make death into some sort of macabre spectacle. Then as now, it did and still would CREATE far more killers than it deterred, if for no other reason than our sick society's emphasis on fame-at-any-cost.

    Even without the draconian and methodical expansion of the Retaliatory Justice system, we already need Son of Sam laws to prevent killers from cashing in on the celebrity-status their crimes have given them.

    Can anyone honestly and factually support a line of reasoning that can explain why returning to a more execution-friendly system wouldn't explosively expand the Serial Killer As Celebrity phenomena?

    If you can't find a means of convincing society to cast aside such ghoulishly bestowed celebrity to these predators, it doesn't matter if you create autonomous roving death squads. You STILL won't have a significant impact on capital crimes.

    All this is FAR more complicated than the tried-and-not-true method of Execute Them All, Let God Sort Them Out. I wish more people would understand that.
    Excellent post, couldn't agree more, and couldn't have said it better myself.
    Innocent victims of merciless crimes, fall prey to some madman's impulsive designs.

    Step after step we try controlling our fate. When we finally start living, it's become too late.

  6. #36
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    So whats the solution to people who have already turned out like that? Fair point on what you say about execution, but how should they be punished & how should society be protected from them committing future crimes? I think its pretty obvious that the limp wristed liberal approach of social workers, adventure holidays & trying to make them nice & take away their core criminal urges hasnt worked either, and is an insult to the victims & family of the victims who quite rightly wish to see justice done & be seen to be done. At the very least life should mean life for murderers, rapists & child abusers with absolutely no chance of parole, but then you get the problem of overcrowded prisons & the cost to the taxpayer of looking after these people (the public maybe wouldnt complain that much if prison wasnt the 5 star hotel it is these days, especially for special cases like venables who the prison services bend over backwards to care for)

    Its a tough one, but there needs to be a solution

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
    So whats the solution to people who have already turned out like that? Fair point on what you say about execution, but how should they be punished & how should society be protected from them committing future crimes? I think its pretty obvious that the limp wristed liberal approach of social workers, adventure holidays & trying to make them nice & take away their core criminal urges hasnt worked either, and is an insult to the victims & family of the victims who quite rightly wish to see justice done & be seen to be done. At the very least life should mean life for murderers, rapists & child abusers with absolutely no chance of parole, but then you get the problem of overcrowded prisons & the cost to the taxpayer of looking after these people (the public maybe wouldnt complain that much if prison wasnt the 5 star hotel it is these days, especially for special cases like venables who the prison services bend over backwards to care for)

    Its a tough one, but there needs to be a solution

    Totally, this is the conundrum - the system is too far gone to change - and who really wants to see some kiddy fiddling murderer out on an adventure holiday funded by us! You're certainly right, the softly softly approach of trying to turn them into nice people will just NOT work for some types.

    This is the thing that really needs thinking about - a viable alternative, say a prison island? I quite like that idea.
    Innocent victims of merciless crimes, fall prey to some madman's impulsive designs.

    Step after step we try controlling our fate. When we finally start living, it's become too late.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SymphonicX View Post
    This is the thing that really needs thinking about - a viable alternative, say a prison island? I quite like that idea.
    Now theres an idea! It wouldnt even have to be all mod cons, just a huge concrete basic facility on one of the remote scottish or cornish isles with no way of getting to the mainland other than by official boat or helicopter. As long as it had the basics needed to live (water,food,a bed) it wouldnt need anything else. The very idea of it being a nasty place to end up would certainly deter a lot of the petty criminals if even shop lifting resulted in a spell there, and it would be somewhere to permanently house the types who were born bad & will always be a danger. The film "Shutter island" springs to mind

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
    Now theres an idea! It wouldnt even have to be all mod cons, just a huge concrete basic facility on one of the remote scottish or cornish isles with no way of getting to the mainland other than by official boat or helicopter. As long as it had the basics needed to live (water,food,a bed) it wouldnt need anything else. The very idea of it being a nasty place to end up would certainly deter a lot of the petty criminals if even shop lifting resulted in a spell there, and it would be somewhere to permanently house the types who were born bad & will always be a danger. The film "Shutter island" springs to mind
    Actually I was thinking more along the lines of "No Escape" - sure it was called that - Ray Liota movie from back in the day - let them hole up on an island with no amenities...no prison there, just no way of actually getting off the island - let anarchy rule them
    Innocent victims of merciless crimes, fall prey to some madman's impulsive designs.

    Step after step we try controlling our fate. When we finally start living, it's become too late.

  10. #40
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    ..and he get's yet another chance...

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...d_Old_Identity
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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  11. #41
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    Its disgusting, he's already got away with murder! he's basically got a licence to do whatever he wants because no matter what he does he'll always be protected on the inside as well as on the outside & the government will bend over backwards to make sure nobody ever finds out who he is regardless of how serious his crimes are. He's never suffered or been punished for his original crime & the others he's committed since, whereas James Bulgers mum & family have been punished every day for the past 18 years.
    Apparently this is him in the photos that are spreading around the net like wildfire, but I dont think anyone will confirm or deny it http://danmeah.co.uk/2011/05/04/jon-...-jon-williams/

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
    Its disgusting, he's already got away with murder! he's basically got a licence to do whatever he wants because no matter what he does he'll always be protected on the inside as well as on the outside & the government will bend over backwards to make sure nobody ever finds out who he is regardless of how serious his crimes are. He's never suffered or been punished for his original crime & the others he's committed since, whereas James Bulgers mum & family have been punished every day for the past 18 years.
    Apparently this is him in the photos that are spreading around the net like wildfire, but I dont think anyone will confirm or deny it http://danmeah.co.uk/2011/05/04/jon-...-jon-williams/
    Another scouse guy was fingered as Venebles a few years ago (totally innocent, not Venebles at all), the poor bastard was living in fear of vigilantes thinking he was guilty and killing him.

    It's sickening that innocent people are being placed in real danger to protect these child murdering filth.

    Something is VERY wrong when this sort of thing is done by the "justice system", very, very wrong
    Oblivion gallops closer, favoring the spur, sparing the rein - I think we will be gone soon

  13. #43
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    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

  14. #44
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    Doesn't shock me whatsoever!
    Still like the prison island idea...."yeah, you're a fuckin' number, fuck off"

    I dunno though, he'll probably never get out if the public has their way. probably for the best considering they've both been brought by the prison system....! Who wants more of that moral code walking around?
    Innocent victims of merciless crimes, fall prey to some madman's impulsive designs.

    Step after step we try controlling our fate. When we finally start living, it's become too late.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post



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