Real life is far scarier than anything Hollywood concocts... "Nanking Massacre"

[darth los]

Perspective is in the eye of the beholder, evil is evil (then again, I'm a modernist and I think postmodernism is absolute BS). Mass genocide, murder, and ethnic "cleansing"/"purifying" can be said to be a perspective from a society as to whether they consider it to be such things or not, but the carrying out of such activities is evil. Truth is greater than "truths" that are held by individuals and individual societies. The fact that they (Al Qaeda) are willing to die in murdering people proves their evil and evil intent. If we were to be rolling through the streets of Iraq and Afghanistan just randomly picking people off with a rifle we would, as well, be equally evil. From our perspective we may not consider this as evil, but that doesn't mean that it is not evil just because we do not consider it as so. Truth is greater (objective) than our perspective (subjective) of it. Again, I don't buy into postmodernism and won't as it's philosophically a weak argument... j.p. Point Taken. My point was mor, not even that they think their actions aren't evil but that they are justified because of the cause that they fight for. Manifest destiny for example was viewed as our right. Yet, although smashing Native American baby Skulls in so they could save bullets is far from righteous it was rationalized because these people were sub human savages who didn't know a good thing when they saw it. No sane person can say as policy (as per their religion it may have happened on an individual basis) that God wants them to engage in wholesale slaughter. However, that's exactly what jihadists are engaged in. We have the same thing here, only they are called neo cons and the religious right that engage in wars/murder because they believe they are in the right (no pun intended). So are we all that different?

[Russian DeadMan]

It just goes to prove the disgust and filth present within the greatest evil the world has ever known: Communism. Ahhh... Come on, man! Cut it out. Communism (and any world outlook, religion etc.) has nothing to do with mass murders and human brutality. We are predators and victims in our nature, and when there is no power to control the herd, people just become who they really are: wolves and sheep.

[Arcades057]

To get this back on track, Nail, check out the Japanese medical experiments on Chinese civilians and PoWs. The Chinese were referred to in the medical records as "monkeys" in cases. Chemical and biological weapons were tested on these people and in many cases the experiments are up there with the Nazi experiements.

[paulannett]

I read about this too, though I can't remember the name of the Japanese unit that committed the acts. I don't think it was too long ago (20 years?) that road workers dug up a huge area only to discover a mass grave which led to more and more horrific Japanese secrets to be unvielled.

[ProfessorChaos]

yeah, i read about this in the book "flags of our fathers". it had lots of horror stories about catching babies with bayonets, rapes, beheadings, etc. pretty brutal stuff. once i got in a debate in philosophy class about the morality of the united states and the use of the big bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki. i brought this incident up as an example of the evils of imperial japan and was amazed that aside from my teacher, none of the others in the room had even heard of this, only about the u.s. dropping the bomb and how it was "evil", or according to the "college-know-it-all-hippies", as eric cartman defines them.

[fulci fan]

The experiments they did are revolting. Live autopsies with no anesthetics, attaching legs where arms go and vise versa, stomachs were removed and the esophogus re attached to the intestines, doctors would impregnate the women and then remove the fetus later in a vivisection, and prisoners had limbs frozen and thawed so the doctors could study the effects of rotting and gangrene. Prisoners were also referred to as "logs" as a joke because the facility was disguised as a lumber mill. Check out a film called "Men Behind the Sun". It is about Unit 731.

[SRP76]

That's why it's called "war", not "getting together with your fellow man and having lunch". Almost every single one of them revolved around killing the enemy peoples, and using them in any way you see fit (beats experimenting on your own folks). Bloodless conflict and limited war is a very new idea in the overall history. Like, less than 1% of the total timeframe.

[AcesandEights]

I read about this too, though I can't remember the name of the Japanese unit that committed the acts Several units HQed under unit 731. We gave some of those fuckers amnesty too, a guarantee to not get brought up on war crime charges, in exchange for their data, similar to some of the German eggheads and Op. paperclip.

[Kaos]

That's why it's called "war", not "getting together with your fellow man and having lunch". Almost every single one of them revolved around killing the enemy peoples, and using them in any way you see fit (beats experimenting on your own folks). Bloodless conflict and limited war is a very new idea in the overall history. Like, less than 1% of the total timeframe. There were most certainly war criminals; if it were Americans who perpetrated these crimes they would be war criminals too. All deserving of being hanged to death (hanging being the most generous method of execution in the case of these crimes.) The taint of such actions carry much longer than it used to (ask any German), true. But deservedly so.

[darth los]

yeah, i read about this in the book "flags of our fathers". it had lots of horror stories about catching babies with bayonets, rapes, beheadings, etc. pretty brutal stuff. once i got in a debate in philosophy class about the morality of the united states and the use of the big bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki. i brought this incident up as an example of the evils of imperial japan and was amazed that aside from my teacher, none of the others in the room had even heard of this, only about the u.s. dropping the bomb and how it was "evil", or according to the "college-know-it-all-hippies", as eric cartman defines them. Dude, nowdays if it's not on you tube or readily available through the i tunes store it's like it didn't happen. Hey Gar can make a movie out of that. (Wait, he already did. )

[Purge]

Rent the aforementioned Men Behind The Sun for a history lesson from Netflix (I work for them). One of the most disturbing films you'll ever see.

[krakenslayer]

Rent the aforementioned Men Behind The Sun for a history lesson from Netflix (I work for them). One of the most disturbing films you'll ever see. This. You won't make it to the end, but do try.

[Arcades057]

once i got in a debate in philosophy class about the morality of the united states and the use of the big bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki. i brought this incident up as an example of the evils of imperial japan and was amazed that aside from my teacher, none of the others in the room had even heard of this, only about the u.s. dropping the bomb and how it was "evil", or according to the "college-know-it-all-hippies", as eric cartman defines them. This is so common that it's almost disgusting. The United States is now the Evil Empire who dropped nuclear weapons on the poor defenseless Japanese who were planning on surrendering anyway. Hiroshima was just a city filled with innocent combatants... Hiroshima had a civilian population of almost 300,000 and was an important military center, containing about 43,000 soldiers. http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/hiroshima.htm And Nagasaki was filled with orphanages and nuns... Nagasaki was an industrial center and major port on the western coast of Kyushu. http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/nagasaki.htm But, hey, if it makes us look worse than a people who speared babies and slaughtered civilians by the hundreds in the last century, lay it on us.

[krakenslayer]

This is so common that it's almost disgusting. The United States is now the Evil Empire who dropped nuclear weapons on the poor defenseless Japanese who were planning on surrendering anyway. Hiroshima was just a city filled with innocent combatants... But, hey, if it makes us look worse than a people who speared babies and slaughtered civilians by the hundreds in the last century, lay it on us. Without getting into the politics of nuking Japan or whatever (which, to be honest, I don't really have strong feelings about one way or the other), the main problem I have with discussing politics on HPotD is peoples' tendency to break things down into extremes like this - blind jingoism or wrist-slitting self-loathing; there is a lot of ground in between those, it's not a binary switch for goodness sakes! Surely people can admit that themselves, their country or their ancestors have done potentially questionable things in the past without it being all self-hatred and misery? Fuck, I've done things I regret and sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing in certain situations, but it's natural, it's not a big deal, I don't hate myself or want to die or any of that shit. Same goes for things at national and historic level. As much as we like to classify ourselves by nationality, in the end we're just a bunch of individuals who were assigned an allegiance based upon which piece of dirt we happened to fall out of the womb onto - you can't expect others to necessarily hold the same opinions or act the same way as us just because they live in the same country as us. So if someone criticizes the country they live in, they're not criticizing themselves or even you (it's not personal), they're criticising the powers that be.

[blind2d]

All right! So, to get into the moral implications of dropping the first bomb on Japan... well, duh! NO city in Japan at the time was entirely civilians! It's a relatively small island nation, and besides that, they were at "total-fucking-war"! That means that everybody in the country was helping! I think really the most disturbing thing about the two bomb drops is not where they were dropped, but the ultimate effects. Again, kind of a duh for that. If you've seen or read Barefoot Gen, it's actually a pretty good representation of what the people went through. The radiation poisoning of that region was truly nasty. I don't think that before or since there has been such a singular blow in military history to incur such damage, at least with just one weapon. That's the true horror of it right there. To reiterate: yes, no one in the country could be entirely innocent of Japan's actions, though some were against the war. Dropping bombs... well, it worked, but really... maybe it was unnecessary, who can say? I sure as hell wasn't there. I suppose it did save some time, money, and American lives, but really I feel like it was also a kind of cop-out move on our part. We got impatient and since the technology existed, we pressed that button. Kind of asshole behavior, but hey, that's life. I also believe that the majority of people killed were civilians, whether they were factory workers or homemakers or children of soldiers. Anyhow, yeah, war in any country is nasty business. Really, we'd all be much better without it and right now that starts with the military. If all the armies, navies, and air forces of the world could simultaneously disband... well, I think the world would be a much better place. Except for terrorists. They just got to go. Oh hey, and less soldiers means more police and firemen! That's gotta be good, right?