4th episode - "Vatos"

[babomb]

I wouldn't go that far. It was a good episode really. Aside from the touching scene in the hospital...praise jesus for random old ladies. Interesting ending though!!

[MoonSylver]

Absolutely loved it. I thought this was the best episode yet so far. Non-stop all the way through. Some thoughts...   I like how, for a change, this was an attack AGAINST stereotypes instead of giving into it (ahem, Merle). It was expected that the Mexicans at the garage were going to be gangster-like thugs who didn't care about anyone except themselves. And then, guess what? They stayed behind while all the others left a retirement home with elderly people to die. It was actually fairly moving. The zombie action in the last 10 minutes was fantastic. I was happy to see that wife-hitting bastard Ed go. So long, bastard. I hate that the girl was killed though. She was fairly hot. Did anyone take a tally on who all was killed? I was a little confused in all the action. Yeah, agree 100% EDIT: For all the folks calling Shane out as being "Rhodes in disguise" or what not, I sure as hell don't see it. I, personally, commend him for beating the hell out of that one guy. And while his relationship with Rick's wife is questionable at best and downright wrong at worst it doesn't automatically make him a terrible person (so what? He may have had an affair, it doesn't make it right but a lot of guys who are otherwise stellar people have a problem with keeping it in their pants). j.p. I like what they're doing with Shane. It's FAR from a saint. But he's not a monster either. He's human. I wouldn't go that far. It was a good episode really. Aside from the touching scene in the hospital...praise jesus for random old ladies. Yeah. I like the fact that they didn't have Rick do what you'd THOUGHT he'd have done, but I'm not sure how that one would have ended if a random plot contrivance hadn't wandered in... Also, like how they answered a LOT of the Merle questions we've been posing...

[Wyldwraith]

Dunno what episode you were watching,   I could've done without the hokey "Gangbangers with hearts of gold" though I liked the standoff and the possibilities it afforded. Believe that, in light of the MASSIVE manpower (compared to Rick's group), their fortified position, and the fact they had at least SOME guns/ammo, Rick was EXTREMELY generous with guns and ammo that physically represent safety/security for his family and the others. Look how much of what ammo they kept they chewed through defending the camp, you know?   I found the end of the episode VERY in-your-face "This isn't your sanitized zombie apocalypse" scene. Though where the HELL at least 2 and a 1/2 dozen Walkers came from all at once way back in the hills...dunno. I think I remember someone saying the comics pinned the reason on Glenn racing the sports car with the alarm blaring all the way into the camp, but not personal knowledge about that. Seemed to have exactly the feel you guys were talking about. Ie: About very likable characters getting killed with little or no warning. The actress playing Nadine did a fairly good job of projecting her anguish as her sister lay dying, and it was a nice touch (though VERY foreshadowed) her getting killed on her birthday. As for Jim, and Shane's handling of it:   On the one hand, I think Shane's initial handling was pretty even-handed, but his Alpha Male "Inner Control Freak" made him trip on his dick when he said "Don't make me take that shovel away." He was golden with his "There's no or what, I'm just asking you for it Jim." If he'd continued in that vein he coulda talked him down (BUT, I AGREE that it was a subjective and rather ambiguous situation. Not morally, perceptually. Was difficult to know whether Jim actually WAS dangerous. We can't know, but I FEEL that Shane mistepped and caused the situation to escalate into a situation where force was required. That is, as I said, open to interpretation CERTAINLY. The ONE thing I fault Shane about genuinely was, having chosen his course of action and deciding   Jim needed to be restrained, I feel it was GROSSLY IRRESPONSIBLE to leave Jim unattended for even a minute. After all, they'd just had a Walker in camp. The FIRST Walker seen up there. That alone shoulda been enough to at least restrain Jim in the middle of the camp, or somewhere else someone could easily see if a Walker was approaching. As this episode was all about, if you voluntarily immobilize a man in a dangerous environment, you assume responsibility for their safety since you've deprived them of the ability to Fight or Flee. The ending...what to say. Hardcore, certainly. Definitely felt "real". Good timing for the cavalry.   I'm still pissed at Rick for parting with a significant % of their guns and ammo. Even if he only gave them 1/3 of it (we can deduce he gave them enough not to make the Dixon's comment about giving them half absurd), that's still SIGNIFICANTLY reducing the protection offered their group, for the sake of a bunch of invalid elderly folks who by their leader's own admission are too sick/unhealthy to hardly go to the bathroom unassisted, let alone be evacuated. No, Rick couldn't have seen the future, but the FEAR OF THAT POSSIBILITY woulda been enough for me to stick to "I'm sorry, I brought the guns into Atlanta at grave risk to my life, and risked my life again to return for them. I sympathize with your plight, but you have dozens of big strong guys with guns and melee weapons, and a secured compound to defend your people. Mine are living in TENTS and an RV that 30-40 Walkers could flip if they tried hard enough. These guns and bullets are DESPERATELY NEEDED back at our camp." Was anyone else aggravated by the   Gangbangers essentially beginning hostilities, taking Glenn hostage, then threatening to throw him off a roof unless Rick not only returned their prisoner but gave him all the guns, THEN, when said Gangbangers get cast in a more sympathetic light which apparently excuses their behavior, Rick just goes "Oh ok, sure I can give you a decent chunk of this weaponry/ammo you have no more claim to than "We saw it in the street and sent a couple guys to take it."? Guess what I'm asking, would you guys choose to do as Rick, given nothing, or done something else?

[MoonSylver]

Yeah, that was the ONLY thing I thing I didn't like in the episode. As I said, the whole resolution was *TAD* "TV Drama-ish" but, eh...

[ProfessorChaos]

not a lot of time for me to ramble, got an early day tomorrow. overall, another great episode. i was so ready to find out about merle and then as soon as glenn was abducted, i was totally absorbed by that and almost forgot about the whole merle thing. the vatos and their stronghold was a bit hokey how it all played out, but still believable enough. and man, that final scene, whew....with only 2 episodes left, i'm kinda confused as to where they're taking this thing before they leave us hanging for almost a year....already going through withdraw symptoms just thinking of not having a new episode to look forward to each week.

[MoonSylver]

not a lot of time for me to ramble, got an early day tomorrow. overall, another great episode. i was so ready to find out about merle and then as soon as glenn was abducted, i was totally absorbed by that and almost forgot about the whole merle thing. the vatos and their stronghold was a bit hokey how it all played out, but still believable enough. and man, that final scene, whew....with only 2 episodes left, i'm kinda confused as to where they're taking this thing before they leave us hanging for almost a year....already going through withdraw symptoms just thinking of not having a new episode to look forward to each week. With ya on all counts. Also, is it just me, or where there some really good zombies there at the end?

[Sammich]

How come all of those people didn't turn after they got killed?

[JDFP]

How come all of those people didn't turn after they got killed? They were just killed. As far as I know it takes at least a few minutes for folks to re-animate after just being killed. ... And that's the Romero universe. I'm not for certain (haven't read the comics) if this universe follows the same rules in that people who die automatically become zombies unless they were infected from a bite prior to dying. j.p.

[ProfessorChaos]

just wanted to add one more thing: dude had some fierce fucking dogs....   seriously, that one on the left, he's nearly a spitting image of my puppy jack...(who i've posted a pic of as my profile pic)....4-legged mack of the decade, for sure.

[babomb]

I like what they're doing with Shane. It's FAR from a saint. But he's not a monster either. He's human. Exactly. He's a hard edged "by-the-book" cop. In the 1st ep at the very beginning he was bitchin about his girlfriend not shutting lights off. He's a stickler for things, especially the rules. But he genuinely has the safety of the group in mind. He has alot of faults but so does everyone. Yeah. I like the fact that they didn't have Rick do what you'd THOUGHT he'd have done, but I'm not sure how that one would have ended if a random plot contrivance hadn't wandered in... I was sure he was just gonna cave in on that. Glad I was wrong.   Rick couldn't have seen the future, but the FEAR OF THAT POSSIBILITY woulda been enough for me to stick to "I'm sorry, I brought the guns into Atlanta at grave risk to my life, and risked my life again to return for them. I sympathize with your plight, but you have dozens of big strong guys with guns and melee weapons, and a secured compound to defend your people. Mine are living in TENTS and an RV that 30-40 Walkers could flip if they tried hard enough. These guns and bullets are DESPERATELY NEEDED back at our camp." Agreed. But oh well.

[ProfessorChaos]

somebody brought this up on another site, but it is possible that all those walkers at the camp were brought there by a certain somebody....hrmmm....it is possible, i suppose.

[Wyldwraith]

Well, They've got 3 bite victims, 1 being-eaten fatality, one with a throat wound that would be fatal without advanced medical intervention that isn't available (and that's without considering the Infection), and the 3rd victim, the dark-haired girl who wasn't Lori...we see her dragged down, but the camera whips away before we see much besides the initial going-in-for-the-bites by 2-3 zombies as she's dragged down. So, even if they're going with a "Must be bitten to reanimate" methodology, we're gonna have 3 more Walkers on our hands soon. That'll bring us to the classic zombie-movie plot device of being confronted with the heartbreaking necessity of either inflicting head trauma on a deceased loved one prior to reanimation (almost NEVER happens), or (more likely) having to put down a newly reanimated undead loved one.   It's a smart move "politically" on Shane's part to pull the "I don't think our losses would have been as bad if you'd been here" on Rick, as we see in the Ep. 5 preview. After all, things have already happened to damage Shane's leadership. Not quite in his right mind or not, there's no doubt others will think what Jim said when they have their own conflicts with Shane. Ie: "What, you'll beat my head in too if I cross you Shane?" Unfair or not, Shane being justified (I believe he was, even though his motives for doing the right thing were corrupted) or not, once a leader is forced into a situation where they have to use a great deal of force PERSONALLY, it WILL negatively affect the way people in a small group view that leader. It's like in a wolf pack. Alphas RARELY actually attack disobedient subordinates. They signal, posture, and finally indicate their willingness to escalate to full-out force with a milder preliminary act of violence if its gone that far. An Alpha who has to constantly do full-on battle will destroy his authority himself. In human terms, when you begin ruling by threat of overt force, you "lose the mandate of the people." That's fine if you, say, have a fanatically loyal military/police-entity to keep the people in check and perpetuate that threat of force everywhere, but when its just you, one on one with the people you're wanting to follow you, it makes you vulnerable to being displaced if a significant and/or PERCEIVED superior alternative leader emerges. In the chaos of that attack, it might very well play that the people recall it like this. "Zombies came out of nowhere and attacked, despite all the rules we followed. Shane, Dale and (insert guy with bat's name) did their best, but things were getting pretty damned dire. Don't know what would've happened if Rick, that Dixon prick, Glenn and T-Dog hadn't shown up. Rick was right, we needed the guns he left in Atlanta." Of COURSE that's not the ONLY WAY it could play, but the mere fact that it's a POSSIBLE interpretation indicates a significant drop in Shane's stock and a corresponding rise in Rick's. Thoughts? Edit: The "Merle Theory" is something that crossed my mind too. It does seem like the thing he'd do. Mighta hoped either the group would be wiped out, or that at least Rick and Shane would die/get Infected THEN die, so he could take his revenge on the group personally. The only hole I see is how would Merle get all those zombies down the convoluted roads leading to the camp. Shame they can't just make bows and fletch arrrows. Could just build a really large raft/series of rafts, stock em with supplies, and then paddle out into lake if Walkers show, and drill em with arrows. Still, interesting angle to consider. Oh and BTW:   "The sawblade was too dull to cut through the handcuff", but good enough to cut REASONABLY cleanly through bones in the wrist? That kinda set off my B.S alarm

[Sammich]

The bolt looked pretty rusted and the saw could have gone through that pretty easy.The bracket also.

[Trin]

Well that was sure a slice of awesomeness!!   Just gonna wrap it all up in spoiler tags, not that we should have to. :P Shane is progressing nicely from his simpleton idiot portrayal in Ep 2. His character is very layered and enjoyable. I like the moral dilemmas he's been thrust into and how he's handling them. Yes, he's a bit over the top on being a control freak. He's a cop in a martial-law-ish situation. I give him a pass on that. And he strikes me as one shotgun short of being a redneck. I like him a lot more than Ep 2. Merle's brother is pretty damned awesome too. For all my rants about Merle being a stereotypical and ignorant character, his brother is worth it. He was a nice blend of angry and collected. He was definitely a guy to have around when heads need bashing, but you didn't see him going beligerent on T-dawg or others unduly. The gangbangers were awful, and poorly handled all around. The transformation from gang killers to elderly hospice workers was just plain off. I liked that it gave Rick a chance to further prove himself the good guy. And prove himself the tough guy as he walked into there not willing to give them anything. Personally I think that was remarkable for his character. The ending was pretty incredible. The series needed a reduction of characters and it was handled well. In retrospect it was obvious that some of them weren't being fleshed out very well. If you were told that a zombie slaughter was gonna hit the camp I guarantee you that it would be easy to tell who would live and who wouldn't. But that's really only obvious in retrospect. I think there's a minor niggle in my mind over *that* many zombies roaming into camp, and Rick and group showing up right at that point (after not running into any on the way), etc. But overall I'm good. I wondered if Merle filled the truck with shamblers too. But I couldn't see them explaining how he did it. And if he'd driven them up the group would've heard him, or else he would've let them out a long ways away, in which case he'd have had to lead them up personally. And we didn't see him. At this point if they show it was Merle throwing zombies at them it's got a TON of explaining to do.

[Mr. Clean]

I really liked the episode but definitely not the best one. Gangbangers?   SURPRISE, we aren't really bad people...100% bullshit....People with a hearts of gold don't demand things like a bunch of cock suckers and then play the we love the shit out of some old people card. The leader risked the the life of a younger kid too. Giving them guns and ammo out of sympathy was definitely pretty damn stupid. ---------- Post added at 11:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ---------- somebody brought this up on another site, but it is possible that all those walkers at the camp were brought there by a certain somebody....hrmmm....it is possible, i suppose. I thought of that too. I dunno how that would be pulled off though. Not easy getting a zombie into a cattle trailer let alone finding a cattle trailer handy. ---------- Post added at 11:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 PM ---------- Well, Oh and BTW:   "The sawblade was too dull to cut through the handcuff", but good enough to cut REASONABLY cleanly through bones in the wrist? That kinda set off my B.S alarm Yeah, I'd have to be 200% sure I couldn't get through that chain let alone that the rusted piece of steel he was attached to before I'd go through my wrist.