Season finale - "TS-19"

[Tricky]

I guess thats what makes the 28 days later scenario more plausible (yes I know they werent real zombies), the military were overrun by the speed of the infected, but they still put up a good fight, as shown in the scene when they attack the mansion house that the soldiers are holding up in.

[shootemindehead]

What about Semper Fi, Do or Die? What about it? None of those mottos mean shit when the whole show is going to hell. At some point it becomes a matter of self-preservation and by that I include ones concern for family members and loved ones etc. IMO, the majority WOULD cut and run when they see the utter pointlessness of the situation. There comes a point, when the odds are so overwhelmingly stacked against you that it makes no sense to hold out. The problems you seem to be having are born out of budget constraints, though. I'm sure the producers would have loved 2000+ extras to play dead over an extended shoot in 38c degree heat. Unfortunately, that's a big ask.

[EvilNed]

I doubt the military would have been as effective as some seem to think. Especially considering the situation. Zombies invade your country and chew down civilians everywhere. There would be massive desertions, all across the armed forces. And massive confusion as well.

[MinionZombie]

My full thoughts on the episode: http://deadshed.blogspot.com/2010/12...-thoughts.html And so the best thing to happen in the zombie genre since Romero's Day of the Dead comes to the end of its first season, and therefore I can't wait for the season season to begin (and for a full 13 episodes too). This season closer though was rather good though. Last week's episode led us on the greatest departure from the source material yet, and this week's episode gave us the meat and potatoes of that departure. TS-19 shared some vibes with Dawn, and Day of the Dead - the false sense of security of the former, and the dire realisation of the latter. Indeed, the exploration of the scientific approach to analysing the zombie outbreak featured in the episode felt like a modern update of Doc Logan's work from Day, so as a big fan of that flick it was great to see a 21st century take on it. Similar to the fifth episode, this one again proved that TWD is about the people, not the zombies. It could be any world-ending cataclysm, or any monster, really - as it's all supposed to be about the people - indeed towards the end as everyone's facing their possible doom, we get some great moments thrown into the mix, such as Carol's desperate fear, and Jacqui's life changing decision. TWD has always been a case of - who they were, how they deal with the horrors around them, and who they gradually become. As such it's a slower paced episode, but it's all to do with the characters - so for those into the human drama of the franchise, this was a spiffing season closer (but the action and zombie fans get a jolt towards the end appropriately enough). Once TS-19 got into its second half it really became about the idea of giving up, and it was portrayed convincingly and chillingly. Jenner proved to be an interesting late addition to the show - and indeed an entirely new addition to the franchise - and his plight was dealt with in an interesting manner. He wasn't some wild eyed loon, or some totally shut-down doomsayer - he had different shades of his attitude throughout, which made him a much more believable character than he might have otherwise been in lesser hands. In terms of it being a season closer, in addition to a tip-top scene between Andrea and Dale (Holden and DeMunn - both acting their arses off, and further cementing my love of both characters), it wasn't just a big tease for season two. Naturally I wanted to know what happens right after the big closing moment, but equally I wasn't left hanging in the wind - so it was a satisfying blend of the two. To summarise the season as a whole, it hasn't been perfect - some scenes had wonky dialogue, or some elements didn't convince or intrigue ... such as the opening scene, and titular gang, of episode four "Vatos" ... and on occasion the pacing has been a bit off here and there during episodes, but I'm very pleased with the season over all. Rick is a strong character, and having read the first four trade paperbacks (so far), it'll be interesting to see how Lincoln's take on the do-right law man will develop as Rick is faced with increasingly trying and complicated circumstances. The Rick/Shane plotline should also develop nicely during the second season, which should ultimately make for some good family drama with Lori and Carl. Glenn has been a real treat throughout the season, but especially in his earlier episodes, and he remains one of my favourite characters in the show - however Andrea and particularly Dale have really stolen my interest most. I can't wait to see how their characters develop during the second season. Daryl Dixon has also been a pleasant surprise - after an initially underwhelming introduction that drew him as a generic redneck racist, he was allowed to grow in episode four (and beyond) to become a useful member of the group (albeit a hot headed and unpredictable one). I could go on, but instead of rambling I'll re-confirm my assertion that The Walking Dead has been the best thing to happen to the zombie genre since Romero's Day of the Dead, and it's all the better for featuring zombies that don't effin' run! Here's hoping the DVD/BR box set release will be a good one with plenty of extra content!

[Gemini]

Many, MANY great points, However, it's NOT like I don't understand that nearly all zombie movies/books (and now TV show) are focusing on the humans trying to survive in a world overrun by the dead. NOT a War of the Living Vs. The Undead. That SAID, I would WARMLY GREET some sign that such a horrendous battle for the fate of humanity took place by the time the camera starts showing us the slagged shell of ghoul-infested ruined civilization that is the setting of the genre's many offerings. So, it's fair to say that actually filming, or expecting someone to film what amounts to a large Saving Private Ryan-scale battle versus the undead is both a) Non-feasible for most productions, and b) At cross-purposes to the story being told. Again though, showing us a detail here or there that resonates with the logical aftermath of such a large-scale battle, ESPECIALLY for the high-priority human assets that we see survivors visit in the search for supplies quite frequently would NOT be at cross-purposes to the drama of the survivors situation, or beyond most productions. If Zach Snyder can come up with what appears to be a square-packed-mile of zombies so dense it looks like you could walk across their heads, then ANYONE could make it look like it cost the undead populace more to overrun a 2 machine-gun/1 grenade launcher, some riflemen and a guy with a SAW or 2 defensive position. Ask yourself this, which is more horrifying. A shot of survivors coming upon dead/mangled soldiers only recognizable as such from their ripped and gore-stained uniforms laying inside a circle of sandbags, with concentric circles of mangled bodies piled 4-deep atop each other, without ANY of the street/parking lot's concrete beneath showing. Or, same sandbag fortification, same mangled soldier-bodies, and a dozen corpses around it, one here, one there? Doesn't the first example just SCREAM the unrelenting horror that IT DIDN'T MATTER that the soldiers had the training, weapons, ammo, and great position. It DIDN'T MATTER that one group of 6-8 soldiers killed HUNDREDS/Couple thousand before being dragged down. The zombies just kept coming and coming and coming until barrels started to go from constant overheating. Ammo-related jams allowed a couple hundred to get close enough to start the beginning of the end, etc. THEN evidence of panic. THAT scene screams to me Unrelenting Menace. The bodies of 12 men/women/children scattered one here, one there makes me go "Were these guys ALL Weekend Warriors? I mean, I know the REAL military is stretched pretty thing right now, but we couldn't muster even a few divisions to parcel out into smaller units to secure areas temporarily to facilitate civilian evacuations? The sheer lack of visual evidence that a battle of any significant occurred near/around the sandbag fortifications and tanks in TWD kinda made me feel like they were something of a visual tease. Like Darabont was saying "Yea, I had the assets to make this look like one evil-ass nightmare of a battle went down on the perimeter of that hospital, but just didn't much feel like shooting that. Here's a parking lot full of stained-head-sheeted human-shaped lumps. Forget this is TV and the entire point of the medium is to conjure the story visually. Use your imagination to fill in the logical blanks...you know, like you do when you read a book?" In my crankier/more nitpicky moments during 3-4th viewings of each TWD Ep. I'd think "Yea, I can use my imagination like that. Think I'll go re-read Empire, or see if Empire 2 is out yet. There's always the rest of the Autumn series, Rot & Ruin was great, and The Living Dead & The Living Dead 2 or the Mammoth Book of Zombies & Mammoth Book of Zombie Apocalypse always have some kickass stories." Heck, there was one story in the Fiction Archive here. Something like Alema-137 (misspelled) that I thought had some absolutely AWESOME material that would feed right into something like a TS-19-style TWD Episode. It's not just griping/whining you know? These are some things I mention because I'd genuinely love to see them depicted onscreen. Scenes I really enjoyed a ton in various books, and scenes hinted at by this or that movie. Don't think I'm alone here either. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much drooling every time news of a WWZ advancement towards hitting the big screen reaches us. The Battle of Yonkers is, IMHO, the equivalent in the zombie apocalypse genre, of the huge battle outside Minas Tirith/Gondor was for The Return of the King in the Fantasy Genre. Characterization, atmosphere, interpersonal interaction/conflict, plot pacing, etc etc are all wonderful and vital parts of a great show/movie/book of any sort. But now and then wouldn't being able to see at least the aftermath of the Badass Apocalyptic Battle in a Zombie Apocalypse be fun? Great post. ---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 AM ---------- I think there's a difference between fighting an armed enemy and fighting unarmed civilians including women and children.. the psychological effect on the troops would be a massive moral drain couple that with dwindling ammo and most probably confused orders from superiors, i think thats what you guys are underestimating the effect a zombie apocalypse would have on the millitary. and thats on the ones who dont abandon the front line to try and save their families. Amen to this. Also add to this the sheer multitudes - MILLIONS of mindless, never tiring, never resting, ever advancing armies not prone to any of the psychological frailties mortals have in heated combat ---------- Post added at 05:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 AM ---------- What about it? None of those mottos mean shit when the whole show is going to hell. At some point it becomes a matter of self-preservation and by that I include ones concern for family members and loved ones etc. IMO, the majority WOULD cut and run when they see the utter pointlessness of the situation. There comes a point, when the odds are so overwhelmingly stacked against you that it makes no sense to hold out. The problems you seem to be having are born out of budget constraints, though. I'm sure the producers would have loved 2000+ extras to play dead over an extended shoot in 38c degree heat. Unfortunately, that's a big ask. A lot of people here keep talking about desertion to protect loved ones and family, but the truth is, the military conditions, trains and programs its soldiers for country to be #1, and family a distant 2nd

[EvilNed]

A lot of people here keep talking about desertion to protect loved ones and family, but the truth is, the military conditions, trains and programs its soldiers for country to be #1, and family a distant 2nd Yeah... I'm sure that's all well and good, but that's just not how this would play out. Unlike any other war, there wouldn't be a "front". The "front" would be outside your home, in the streets, in your yard. In a situation like this any "love for your country" would be pointless, and that would become incredibly apparent to anyone, soldier or not, as soon as they figure this shit out.

[Legion2213]

I'd think that most soldiers understand that the enemy is defeated by taking the fight to them and destroying any threat, not making a last stand at your home with cobbled together weapons and flimsy defenses.

[shootemindehead]

A lot of people here keep talking about desertion to protect loved ones and family, but the truth is, the military conditions, trains and programs its soldiers for country to be #1, and family a distant 2nd Training rarely survives reality. People adapt and overcome and that will sometimes mean getting the fuck outta dodge. The "reality" that the army is facing here is not that their country might be occupied by an enemy force or that they might have to simply give up a piece of ground. It's that the slow lumbering, hard to kill, already dead, force that's lurching toward the gun emplacement is going to eat the country.

[mpokera]

Firstly, very well said Wyldwraith, thats almost exacxtly how I imagine it would look. I think most heavily defended points would consist of enormous piles of zombie remains. Many in bits and pieces scattered in fans out from the strongpoint. After thinking about it more I have a theory. What if when the dead first began to rise, they moved much more quickly. Something like in Dawn 04, that would explain the military resistance being wiped out without huge piles of zombie corpses. With running zombies it would be over pretty quickly, one of the reasons I dont care for them. If the Dead can run, jump, climb etc but still only be destroyed by brain trauma, we are all screwed and in short order. But maybe after the initial burst of energy expended the decay etc made them move more slowly? Tho in episode 2 we did see them run and climb when sufficiently motivated.

[Andy]

Training rarely survives reality. People adapt and overcome and that will sometimes mean getting the fuck outta dodge. The "reality" that the army is facing here is not that their country might be occupied by an enemy force or that they might have to simply give up a piece of ground. It's that the slow lumbering, hard to kill, already dead, force that's lurching toward the gun emplacement is going to eat the country. I Agree with shootemindehead, another point is that at least in the beginnings of a outbreak, the army would be moving civilians into shelters including the injured (and infected) which means that at some stage, they are going to be attacked from both sides. Also when the order comes down from above to kill the infected, how well is an order to shoot sick and injured unarmed women and children going to be taken by soldiers whos moral is already going to be through the floor? In case i didnt emphasize it enough before, the psychological impact a zombie outbreak would put upon the millitary is unfathonable, you couldnt compare the situation the army would be put in to any known warfare that has ever happened before. All procedure and training would go straight out of the window in the first few days. And i think in the brief glimpses of the millitary we see in the walking dead, this is shown perfectly and think its also demonstrated in dawn and in day.

[EvilNed]

In case i didnt emphasize it enough before, the psychological impact a zombie outbreak would put upon the millitary is unfathonable, you couldnt compare the situation the army would be put in to any known warfare that has ever happened before. All procedure and training would go straight out of the window in the first few days. And i think in the brief glimpses of the millitary we see in the walking dead, this is shown perfectly and think its also demonstrated in dawn and in day. Word, brother.

[MinionZombie]

Also, when you think about it, look at a war like Vietnam - not like the 'traditional' type such as World War 2 - and look at the damage it did psychologically to an entire nation, and to the men who were shipped out there to fight. As Andy said, make it 'yours family, friends, and neighbours eating each other and coming for you next' and you'd have mass confusion, panic, and terror. Also, look at the likes of Swine Flu and other viral troubles that have caused panic and fear in relatively much smaller scale circumstances. When you've got bodies walking out of morgues and eating people across the nation, your people are gonna have a shit fit of epic proportions. Also, add in the personal survival instinct - just as Robert Rodriguez's own doctor said (who was in Planet Terror, and Machete) in concerns to the virus in Planet Terror - RR asked him 'what would you do in this situation' and the Doctor said, in all seriousness, that he'd get the hell out of there when he saw there was nothing that could be done to stem the flow. Multiply that across an entire population and you're effed-in-the-ay.

[Wyldwraith]

All excellent points, But rewind a bit. BEFORE the military gets hit by the infected civilians who have turned from inside and the zombies from outside. BEFORE a HUGE % of a major city is undead, gathered and headed for the few locations the military secured. BEFORE all this evidence of how hopeless it all is filters down to the common rifleman. The first engagements of any significance (by significance I mean an engagement with a strong chance of destroying many zombies), are going to be at/against the outermost defensive positions of the concentric-rings-style defensive position. The kind of deployment a brigade/division might use to say, secure the area around a major bridge they are funneling civilians across before they intend to blow the bridge. Or what about the very high-priority assets. The ones the military deems worth "holding at any cost"? Both of these scenarios would AT THE BEGINNING of the shit REALLY hitting the fan, be essentially Dug-in Military Forces, with extensive anti-personnel explosives at chokepoints and overlapping fields of fire from multiple machine-guns VERSUS say, 1,000 zombies. (About what you might expect to pour out of a now-zombified neighborhood, overrun hospital, emergency shelter etc.) In order to work up to the factors that all of you describe as being the reasons the military loses, we must FIRST proceed through the situations that precede it all coming off the rails and the bottom falling out. Or, lets even say that NOT ONE GROUND UNIT accomplished ANYTHING of significance. The zombie hordes have now massed, and consist of 90-95% of Atlanta's former population, and are surging north in huge concentrations pursuing withdrawing military and fleeing civilians from northern Georgia. Explain away the fact that there is always ZERO AIR SUPPORT for the military in EVERY DAMNED DEPICTION of zombies vs. military? It's not like it takes hours to re-arm, fuel (with extra drop-tanks if they must be scrambled from an extended distance) and scramble various types of fighters capable of dropping 500-1000lbs bombs, Hellfire-type devices, Thermobaric devices....or just good old fashioned air-to-ground missiles (in the case of jets) or something like Shrike rockets (in the case of attack choppers). Yea, you can come up with reasons why it always works out this way, but that isnt necessarily the way it'd be. Respect the awful power of 21st century ordinance if you refuse to respect the soldiers courage/commitment. (And YES, SOMEWHERE ON A DAMNED CARRIER, THERE WOULD STILL BE JETS AND PILOTS TO FLY THEM.) K, getting a lil frustrated, so time to take a bit of a hiatus from thread.

[shootemindehead]

Ok... As I've said before, what you're complaining about here is a budget constraint. Producers of zombie movies are usually working off of a low (or non-existent) source of funds. It's not that the makers of these movies don't believe that there wouldn't be running battles in various parts of the globe. It just comes down to the fact that there just isn't the money there to show it. So instead they show evidence of small unit action (as in The Walking Dead) or not at all, leaving it to the imagination of the viewer.

[bassman]

So instead they show evidence of small unit action (as in The Walking Dead) or not at all, leaving it to the imagination of the viewer. Now you're just asking for too much out of modern audiences. It needs to be shown and specifically detailed or else it didn't happen..