Why we fight; also a reason for the usage of high-yield nuclear weapons

[thxleo]

The difference isn't that we're not upset. The difference is that some nutballs on this board seem to think that nothing bad should ever happen to the US. Yes, this is a war. Atrocities happen in war! Horrible, horrible things happen in war! When you went into this war, how could you not expect this to happen? Someone, I think it was Scipio, said earlier that if some foreign nation invaded the US and occupied it, then you wouldn't really follow the Geneva conventions either. That is true, and you need to realize that. These people are ****ed off at the mess the US has caused. Civilians over there are paying for it with their lives everyday. Where is your sympathy for them? Where is your sympathy for the tortured victims of the US? Nobody here is arguing that this is good. It's bad, it's bad news. But for christ sake, this is a war. And atrocities are being committed by BOTH SIDES. So do your homework. The last thing we need is some nutjob who thinks US soldiers crap out gold and that the Iraqi are savage beasts. Thank you for proving my point. seriously what are you 14 now? We're talking about modern armed conflict, not you and your snivveling REFM buddies playing a round of Rainbow6. nor is this a discussion of "ZOMG THEEE TERREISTS ARRRE RIGHT< AND DEE US-AYE IS SOOOOO BADDDDD." you twit. did you actually read two thirds of the posts on this thread before excrete-ing out that lincoln log of a post? no one is proposing an end to the war, nor is anyone stating the insugents are good people. what we were argueing is that fact atrocity begats further atrocity, and that's about it. while the thoguh may detract from your "US A-OK" jargon, the fact of the matter is the point is both factual, and readily provable. now go back to Advance war fighter and let the adults talk. it's funny, he strikes me as exactly the sort of guy that would be commiting war crimes, were he over there. creppy. Thanks for proving my point as well. By the way, that was quite a mature response from an "adult". How many insults were in that post? Don't actually try to debate my point, just throw out some names and feel better about yourself.

[p2501]

Thanks for proving my point as well. By the way, that was quite a mature response from an "adult". How many insults were in that post? Don't actually try to debate my point, just throw out some names and feel better about yourself. What point? you started out with name calling, then desintergated into some sort of rambling commentary on "well what would you do?". there really wasn't a direct point to respond to. As for my hostility, you the one who came in acting like a jackass. and it goes goes to underline my original point of one attitude begats another one. as for Iraq. here's a start. 1) remove reservists unit from the battlefeild. they're ill trained, itchy on the trigger, and poorly discipliined. 2) turn training and daily operations of the Iraqi police of to US SOG teams. training indegenous forces is what they excell at. 3) pruge Shia and other extremists from civil service 4) close then militarize the Iraq Syria border. not in a pussy sense. airmer overflights, constant predator surveilnce. and deploy marines along the border in observational search and destroy parties. that's a start. would you like to bitch some more?

[thxleo]

What point? you started out with name calling, then desintergated into some sort of rambling commentary on "well what would you do?". there really wasn't a direct point to respond to. As for my hostility, you the one who came in acting like a jackass. and it goes goes to underline my original point of one attitude begats another one. as for Iraq. here's a start. 1) remove reservists unit from the battlefeild. they're ill trained, itchy on the trigger, and poorly discipliined. 2) turn training and daily operations of the Iraqi police of to US SOG teams. training indegenous forces is what they excell at. 3) pruge Shia and other extremists from civil service 4) close then militarize the Iraq Syria border. not in a pussy sense. airmer overflights, constant predator surveilnce. and deploy marines along the border in observational search and destroy parties. that's a start. would you like to bitch some more? Good lord man! What are you doing wasting time on a zombie message board? You should be out in front of the Pentagon with your plan in hand! Who would have thought that the ultimate plan for the answer to the Iraq War was hidden in the forums of HPOTD?

[MapMan]

1) remove reservists unit from the battlefeild. they're ill trained, itchy on the trigger, and poorly discipliined. I disagree about the National Guard and Reserves. Most are prior service that probably had to pick up a second MOS. Imagine having a turret mechanic who is now a Scout on a M3. Quite handy to have. Also you have a nice selection of civilian occupations to use. I don't know very many grunts or tankers that are electricians, carpenters ect. It is a team effort. The person processing the paycheck or getting the mail is just as important as the idiot like me that selected the rifle and 100+ pounds of crap needed to sustain life in the field. A majority of the war crimes being reported have been by full time military. Except Abu Grahb. What MOS were you ?

[Mike70]

Wanna know the difference between those animals over there and the U.S.? Take a look at these photos...http://www.ogrish.com/archives/nick_...n_21_2005.html Some of the members on this board, and you know who you are, are so far gone there is no hope for you. You worship at the altar of creeps like Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, and the Dixie Chicks. Yet you tear apart those who believe in their country and their military. Thank God there was no internet or 24 hour liberal media in the days of WWII. We would all be speaking German. Those animals have killed 2500 U.S. soldiers since the start of the war. It took them 3 years to get to that number. It took them 24 hours back in September of 2001 to kill 3000 citizens. We have taken the war to their backyard, instead of ours. Who does not understand that? This is a war. For all of those bleeding hearts out there, here is a question for you. What would you do to fight terrorism? What magic plan do you have that the U.S. just can't seem to figure out? You all seem to have incredibly arrogant and smart ass answers for those you disagree with on this message board, what would you do to solve this problem then? Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home. yet another post from the hypocrisy is us dept. listen little boy, no one on here has said anything about worshiping at the alter of idiots like ward churchill or michael moore. that is ad hominem invective designed to distract from the real issue here. unless someone comes straight out and says that they are supporters of these two, you have no basis for making such an outrageous declaration. you are creating accusations that you have absolutely no basis for. nobody on here has a "bleeding heart" either. what many of us have tried to do is point out that it is hypocritical to damn the actions of insurgents when the us armed forces are murdering civilians in cold blood. there is ample evidence that this is, in fact, going on. the courts-martial and other investigations into US actions prove this. i am a military vet and was in somalia for 6 months. i don't need to be told what war is all about by some fool who is safely ensconsed behind a computer. i have literally watched people that i care deeply about being killed, maimed and wounded. i have a suggestion for you and arcades - if this is such a bug up your ass, why don't you enlist and do something about it. instead of sounding off on this board as if you actually know what you are talking about. my point in all of my posts has been that war is destructive, degrading, and dehumanizing to everyone involved in it - soldiers and civilians alike. i know this from personal experience. i have a deep repugnance for war and violence. NO ONE is supporting the insurgents on here. NO ONE. so stop with the fabrications. stop with inventing statements that simply are not there in any of our posts. we have said over and over again that torture is WRONG no matter who employs it. wrong when insurgents do it and wrong when the US does it. we have said over and over that cold-blooded murder is WRONG and CRIMINAL. no matter who does it. in fact it is doubly bad for the US to engage in torture or anything other than a strict adhereance to the geneva and hauge conventions. why? because as an advanced, western nation we should damn well know better and should damn well comport ourselves with more honor and dignity. i will go further- killing other humans is wrong - period. wrong when terrorists do it and wrong when the US govt. sponsors it. the fact that you call people "animals over there" gives me a strong basis for suspicion that you have some sort of racist agenda. i am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and taking your words to apply to the insurgents. yes the insurgents are islamic extremist and a*sholes. there is no doubt about that. the fact remains however that there would be no insurgency if not for this idiotic, ill-conceived invasion of iraq. as someone who has seen war and violence up close in somalia i have absolutely no patience for little boys, safely tucked away behind a computer, who think that war and warmongering is somehow "cool" and spout off continuosly about things they have, quite literally no idea of. again, i have a suggestion - put your money where your big mouths are: join the military.

[mista_mo]

Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home. Sit back and do nothing like Canada? Hey guy..really..grow the f*ck up. We have committed what..2000 troops to AFGANISTAN (which is the real problem, or at least it was til captain f*ck tits (aka bush) actually made Iraq into a major terrorist threat). Our government was smart in staying out of Iraq, and going and staying in Afganistan. Do some research dude. Canada is a major player in the war on terrorism, and I find it insulting to say the least that you would say something so ignorant and plainly idiotic. Grow up, start looking at the broader picture of things. oh, and Scipio, don't worry bout it, misunderstanding on my part buddy

[p2501]

Good lord man! What are you doing wasting time on a zombie message board? You should be out in front of the Pentagon with your plan in hand! Who would have thought that the ultimate plan for the answer to the Iraq War was hidden in the forums of HPOTD? exactly my point, your looking for a one shot fixall and there isn't one.

[zombie04]

Sit back and do nothing like Canada? Hey guy..really..grow the f*ck up. We have committed what..2000 troops to AFGANISTAN (which is the real problem, or at least it was til captain f*ck tits (aka bush) actually made Iraq into a major terrorist threat). Our government was smart in staying out of Iraq, and going and staying in Afganistan. As far as I'm concerned, Canada is a good country with good people. However I'd have to disagree with your opinion on Bush and Iraq, but it's your opinion so I respect it. But I guess we can both agree that this war needs to end not because Bush is involved but because war in general is dehumanizing and kills us all.

[p2501]

I disagree about the National Guard and Reserves. Most are prior service that probably had to pick up a second MOS. Imagine having a turret mechanic who is now a Scout on a M3. Quite handy to have. Also you have a nice selection of civilian occupations to use. I don't know very many grunts or tankers that are electricians, carpenters ect. It is a team effort. The person processing the paycheck or getting the mail is just as important as the idiot like me that selected the rifle and 100+ pounds of crap needed to sustain life in the field. A majority of the war crimes being reported have been by full time military. Except Abu Grahb. What MOS were you ? i'm with taht, and i should ahve defenitely speficied that not ALL NG units fall into my classification. but for every fromer full timer you get some ass hat that wants to be rambo. and unfortunately that's all it takes. I had no MOS, couldn't go on account of my right leg. when i was 16 i stopped a line backers head with my knee cap. that joint now has the over strength of wet angel hair. So when your 17 and your told you'll never get that airborn tab, but you can always be a mechanic the romance of the miltary kinda died for me.

[MapMan]

Yes you would have had a MOS, a military occupational specialty. Airborne is a designation at the end of your MOS for example I am a 19D (Armored Reconnaissance Specialist) I have several additional skill identifiers D3 for Bradley fighting vehicle operations, P for parachutist and G for Ranger. What rank were you when you got out ? Wat uint were you with in Somalia ? We might have ate the same dirt. Actually I meant for this to go to SCIPIO70. I am old and feeble.

[thxleo]

yet another post from the hypocrisy is us dept. listen little boy, no one on here has said anything about worshiping at the alter of idiots like ward churchill or michael moore. that is ad hominem invective designed to distract from the real issue here. unless someone comes straight out and says that they are supporters of these two, you have no basis for making such an outrageous declaration. you are creating accusations that you have absolutely no basis for. nobody on here has a "bleeding heart" either. what many of us have tried to do is point out that it is hypocritical to damn the actions of insurgents when the us armed forces are murdering civilians in cold blood. there is ample evidence that this is, in fact, going on. the courts-martial and other investigations into US actions prove this. i am a military vet and was in somalia for 6 months. i don't need to be told what war is all about by some fool who is safely ensconsed behind a computer. i have literally watched people that i care deeply about being killed, maimed and wounded. i have a suggestion for you and arcades - if this is such a bug up your ass, why don't you enlist and do something about it. instead of sounding off on this board as if you actually know what you are talking about. my point in all of my posts has been that war is destructive, degrading, and dehumanizing to everyone involved in it - soldiers and civilians alike. i know this from personal experience. i have a deep repugnance for war and violence. NO ONE is supporting the insurgents on here. NO ONE. so stop with the fabrications. stop with inventing statements that simply are not there in any of our posts. we have said over and over again that torture is WRONG no matter who employs it. wrong when insurgents do it and wrong when the US does it. we have said over and over that cold-blooded murder is WRONG and CRIMINAL. no matter who does it. in fact it is doubly bad for the US to engage in torture or anything other than a strict adhereance to the geneva and hauge conventions. why? because as an advanced, western nation we should damn well know better and should damn well comport ourselves with more honor and dignity. i will go further- killing other humans is wrong - period. wrong when terrorists do it and wrong when the US govt. sponsors it. the fact that you call people "animals over there" gives me a strong basis for suspicion that you have some sort of racist agenda. i am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and taking your words to apply to the insurgents. yes the insurgents are islamic extremist and a*sholes. there is no doubt about that. the fact remains however that there would be no insurgency if not for this idiotic, ill-conceived invasion of iraq. as someone who has seen war and violence up close in somalia i have absolutely no patience for little boys, safely tucked away behind a computer, who think that war and warmongering is somehow "cool" and spout off continuosly about things they have, quite literally no idea of. again, i have a suggestion - put your money where your big mouths are: join the military. Again, a perfect example of the far left mentality. If someone says something you disagree with then just call them some names(little boy?). You and several other "members" here are fantastic at that. You served in the military? Well I respect that a great deal. I know you have experienced things that alot of us, my self included, could not understand. But that does not make my point any less valid. And I will argue with you that the "atrocities" that US soldiers have committed pale in comparison to the acts that the "animals" do on a daily basis. Comparing them is a joke. And you know it. Sit back and do nothing like Canada? Hey guy..really..grow the f*ck up. We have committed what..2000 troops to AFGANISTAN (which is the real problem, or at least it was til captain f*ck tits (aka bush) actually made Iraq into a major terrorist threat). Our government was smart in staying out of Iraq, and going and staying in Afganistan. Do some research dude. Canada is a major player in the war on terrorism, and I find it insulting to say the least that you would say something so ignorant and plainly idiotic. Grow up, start looking at the broader picture of things. oh, and Scipio, don't worry bout it, misunderstanding on my part buddy Canada is one of the biggest hotbeds of terror in the world. Slack immigration laws make sure of that...dude. And by the way, captain f*ck tits? What kind of half ass insult is that? Bush is the captain of f***ing tits? Huh?

[Arcades057]

It's good for me to find common ground with people that I usually argue with. Thxleo, it always surprised me how alike our politics are, but how much we argue on everything else. We can boil it all down to this, I think. You have one side that recoils in anger and disgust at photographs like those of Nick Berg. These (and I am among them) find solace in videos like the one of a bomb striking Zarqawi's hideout. We are the ones who wept on 9/11 and think that the enemy is anyone who cheered at that attack, even those in our own country. We imagine a world free from terror, much like we imagined a world free from the Evil Empire that was the Soviet Union. When people tell us something can't be done, we list the reasons why it can and prove them wrong. These people think they are correct and have facts that back it up. The other side is more content to let things be (this seems to be the majority of respondents to this post). So long as something does not affect their everyday activities it could just as easily be happening on the dark side of the moon. They believe that all sides are evil or good, depending on the situation, that evil and good are interchangeable. They feel that their side is correct and sometimes have facts to back it up. Usually they will use the words "morally wrong" to explain why something is incorrect. When backed into a corner by cold hard facts they will resort to namecalling and "you go, girl!" to the many others on their side, for there are always more of those kinds of people than the first. I've learned throughout my life that as soon as someone resorts to personal attacks and name-calling in an argument it means they've lost the upper hand. I try to refrain from that sort of behavior unless I'm not trying to prove anything (hence my arguments with a certain troll on this site in the past). I can almost understand the idea of "any torture is the same" but it's not. That's like saying any crime is the same; if you get a speeding ticket it's just as bad as raping a kid. It's not true. Torture and degrading treatment are different. One ends up with two people dead in the way our soldiers were, the other gets you tons, and tons, and tons of TV time from the media.

[Mike70]

Again, a perfect example of the far left mentality. If someone says something you disagree with then just call them some names(little boy?). You and several other "members" here are fantastic at that. You served in the military? Well I respect that a great deal. I know you have experienced things that alot of us, my self included, could not understand. But that does not make my point any less valid. And I will argue with you that the "atrocities" that US soldiers have committed pale in comparison to the acts that the "animals" do on a daily basis. Comparing them is a joke. And you know it. i called you a little boy because the mentality that you and others are employing is childish in the extreme and betrays a complete lack of understanding of the central issue here. i don't care if the actions that US soldiers have taken "pale in comparison" to the insurgents. as for your "and you know it" comment i reject this in its entirety because as i have said before torture and murder are torture and murder- period. doesn't matter who does it. it is utterly wrong. the point the others and i are trying to make is that US soldiers should never take those actions. murder is murder - period. no matter who it is done by. i see nothing in your post that offers any proof of arguement at all. nothing. you simply cannot respond logically to our arguements with out bringing out the "far left mentality" tag. nowhere in my posts have i referred to the far right or conservatives nor have i labeled any one as such. you see, unlike you i understand that not all conservatives are warmongerers nor do i feel that the conservative "mentality" is invalid simply because i choose not to agree with it. as for being fantastic at name calling i would refer you back to one of your previous posts where you referred to several of us being supporters of ward churchill, michael moore and the dixie chicks. i do recall that you used the words "bleeding hearts" as well. now who is throwing the names around? if you act like a foolish child, expect to be called and treated like one. to me you are a little boy - no name calling intended. it is simply how i view both you and arcades. silly little kids safe behind a computer spouting off about things you have absolutely no idea about. if the name fits wear it. so when are you going to enlist?

[Arcades057]

i am a military vet and was in somalia for 6 months. i don't need to be told what war is all about by some fool who is safely ensconsed behind a computer. i have literally watched people that i care deeply about being killed, maimed and wounded. i have a suggestion for you and arcades - if this is such a bug up your ass, why don't you enlist and do something about it. instead of sounding off on this board as if you actually know what you are talking about. Can't tell you the amount of times I've heard "why don't you enlist" from someone in this argument. I got two answers a) 3 felonies. I tried once in August of '03, again in January of '04, again in August of '04 and again in November of '04. No dice. Think I wouldn't be there if I could be? Think again, buddy. Answer 2: Do you believe in taking care of others who cannot care for themselves? Why don't you give 100% of your pay to them. Don't keep any for yourself, that would be hypocritical. You care for them, someone else will care for you. Doesn't make much sense, does it? Neither does that "then you join" that I've heard so often. Just because someone sits at a computer and gets this off of their chest does not mean they don't have the heart to be "over there." I got a feeling Lee has the same problem as I do. my point in all of my posts has been that war is destructive, degrading, and dehumanizing to everyone involved in it - soldiers and civilians alike. i know this from personal experience. i have a deep repugnance for war and violence. NO ONE is supporting the insurgents on here. NO ONE. so stop with the fabrications. stop with inventing statements that simply are not there in any of our posts. You have to understand that sometimes silence is just as bad. Making excuses is what you were doing when you said "our brand of torture is just as bad as theirs, but..." At that point there's not much to be said other than you are giving tacit approval for their actions as I see it. I can admit that what we did to those Iraqis was wrong and repugnant; but at the same time I understand the difference between being photographed naked and having underwear on your heads, and having your eyes gouged out and your head cut off. I hope you can too. we have said over and over again that torture is WRONG no matter who employs it. wrong when insurgents do it and wrong when the US does it. we have said over and over that cold-blooded murder is WRONG and CRIMINAL. no matter who does it. in fact it is doubly bad for the US to engage in torture or anything other than a strict adhereance to the geneva and hauge conventions. why? because as an advanced, western nation we should damn well know better and should damn well comport ourselves with more honor and dignity. i will go further- killing other humans is wrong - period. wrong when terrorists do it and wrong when the US govt. sponsors it. Agreed in full. But the part about the US sanctioning it, we have no proof. All we have is the word of those on trial. the fact that you call people "animals over there" gives me a strong basis for suspicion that you have some sort of racist agenda. i am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and taking your words to apply to the insurgents. yes the insurgents are islamic extremist and a*sholes. there is no doubt about that. the fact remains however that there would be no insurgency if not for this idiotic, ill-conceived invasion of iraq. The animals of which I speak are not animals, as that would be giving them too much credit. They are less than animals. I'm not speaking of the average Iraqi citizen, but those who engage in murder and torture against those citizens and our own troops. How you could have mistaken that, having been in a place where the enemy was called "skinnies" due to their lack of food is beyond me... as someone who has seen war and violence up close in somalia i have absolutely no patience for little boys, safely tucked away behind a computer, who think that war and warmongering is somehow "cool" and spout off continuosly about things they have, quite literally no idea of. again, i have a suggestion - put your money where your big mouths are: join the military. Again you question my manhood. You've been fired at, right? What does the bullet sound like when it goes past your head? Remember the snap? Remember the fact that the sound booms a second later, followed by more and more? Remember the feeling after the first time you were shot at? That giddiness, the shaking, the whooping you and your friends did? Please. You lived a good life, joined the army, did your time. I lived a bad one, joined the streets, did MY time. I'm done, you're done. You got shot at, I got shot at. You saw death, I saw death. You were "over there," I was over here. Ever been face to face with 4 guys and an automatic in your face? Ever seen someone fire off a spat from a little chopper and then have that gun aimed at you? Ever had to epoxy the bullet holes in your '89 Sterling so your mother didn't find out you were shot at? If I knew you in person I'm sure we'd find that we both had some pretty cool, pretty sad, pretty awful stories to tell. You believe that your time in war was a terrible thing and that war is horrible; I believe the same about my time in my own little war. You'd never go back, you're critical about the war and everything along with it; I'd never touch drugs again, live my life on the straight path and look down on criminals. We're not that much different, Scipio. Only difference is in the places our experiences took place.

[MapMan]

i'm with taht, and i should ahve defenitely speficied that not ALL NG units fall into my classification. but for every fromer full timer you get some ass hat that wants to be rambo. and unfortunately that's all it takes. I had no MOS, couldn't go on account of my right leg. when i was 16 i stopped a line backers head with my knee cap. that joint now has the over strength of wet angel hair. So when your 17 and your told you'll never get that airborn tab, but you can always be a mechanic the romance of the miltary kinda died for me. So you are the arm chair General ? Unless you have been around the people and worked with the people that you are talking about how the hell would you know ? If you have not spent any time in the field with troops then you shouldn't talk shi*. How do you know about some hot ass that wants to be Rambo ?