Why we fight; also a reason for the usage of high-yield nuclear weapons

[MinionZombie]

To run with your atrocity theme, I find it (I'm speaking generally, over the last couple of years) quite strange that there's so much shock and surprise that atrocities happen in a time of war. Yes, they bloody well shouldn't happen (like that family being massacred the other week in Iraq), but they sadly do - but it's not just "us" doing them - and by that we mean soldiers who are plunged into a situation us civies could never understand or appreciate on their heightened level. These guys are chucked out into a foreign country in the heat and the sand with half a civilisation baying for your execution on a daily basis, like in Vietnam, things are going to get sticky and the situation is going to boil over in the chaos of war. Convenient that the liberal media has completely forgotten about the mass graves, the factory filled with human bones, the rape rooms, the torture rooms and so on and so forth - the atrocities that Saddam's government commited. Which reminds me - here in the UK we're got this asshat 'politician' (ex LABOUR, now leader of "the respect party" - i.e. sad loner twat on his own) called george galloway (who doesn't deserve capital letters) - anyway, this guy was videotaped schmoozing and pressing the flesh all "happy to meet you again" with that sick rapist, toturing Saddam son, Uday (sp?). *shudders* Sickening. Now of course, making the hop, skip & jump from 9/11 to Iraq was quite a stretch - my view is that Saddam should have been booted the f*ck out of Iraq in the first Gulf War. If it hadn't have been for the pansy ass UN, and if Thatcher had still been around, that maniac would have been ousted. Who knows, all the people tortured, raped and killed in that 13-ish years might very well have been alive and well today if the situation had been sorted out when it should have been. Another thing that p*sses me off, people who shout "war for oil!". Now, while this is indeed not desireable, could you imagine a Western world starved of oil? Our society depends on it endlessly, if it was gone there'd be utter chaos! At least one good thing comes from high fuel prices over in the states (which are of course, still half the price of what we have here in the UK daily ), is that we're starting to see some movement towards more sustainable sources of fuel - this ethanol/corn thingymajig which has only 15% petrol/oil in the mix itself. *sigh* I'll end my rant...time to check out that "Prey" demo.

[EvilNed]

Egypt. Syria. They've got oil. They torture victims. Why not attack them? Because we're on friendly terms with them, that's why.

[p2501]

Another thing that p*sses me off, people who shout "war for oil!". Now, while this is indeed not desireable, could you imagine a Western world starved of oil? Our society depends on it endlessly, if it was gone there'd be utter chaos! At least one good thing comes from high fuel prices over in the states (which are of course, still half the price of what we have here in the UK daily ), is that we're starting to see some movement towards more sustainable sources of fuel - this ethanol/corn thingymajig which has only 15% petrol/oil in the mix itself. *sigh* I'll end my rant...time to check out that "Prey" demo. It seems and maybe that just do the the lack of decent reporting, that our task in Iraq has gone from and underlying element of humanitarian. to urban patrols, area confinement and check point security. From what i've been reading, the Army coprs of engineers, doesn't even have regular miltary security, they've had to contract out to a british PMC in order to security convoy protection. So, while i'm for the war, actually ****ing fixing Iraq, and providing the Kurds/Shias a stable country to reside in, it seems we've strayed from doing that unless it co-encides with a Haliburton contract. Having said all that it's distinctly possible that it's an issue of the press reporting over dramatized accounts while suppressing actual progress. One important thing to note is ALOT of these bombings and attacks are infact taking place in localized areas, so it's most certainly not as if all of Iraq is operating in constant suicide bombing ****efest we're constantly hearing about. and how is the "Prey" demo.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

Quote: Originally Posted by MapMan Who were you with in Somolia ? HHC 10th mtn div g3 operations. i was in the army from april 91 to july 94. fort drum, ny. i was in somalia from 11 dec 92 to 6 may 93. stationed at what used to be the us embassy compound in mogadishu, which was right across from what used to be the university. It's funny when people who wildly support the troops force vetrens to prove their merit. A real hoot. Originally Posted by thxleo Since you are deaf, here it is again... WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS THEM! Even though you, and people who think like you, say we are and that we do just as many bad things. I guess that whole "human being" thing doesn't count, eh? I'm pretty sure we all look the same when we're blown to ****. Blood's red, however you look at it.

[MapMan]

It's funny when people who wildly support the troops force vetrens to prove their merit. A real hoot. Just seeing if we were there at the same time. It's funny when people jump to conclusions about shi* they really know nothing about.

[p2501]

So you are the arm chair General ? Unless you have been around the people and worked with the people that you are talking about how the hell would you know ? If you have not spent any time in the field with troops then you shouldn't talk shi*. How do you know about some hot ass that wants to be Rambo ? umm, my Grandfather was in Army recon during WW2. my father ran a gun boat up and down Laos, two of my friends in additon to my shooting instructor were SEALs, and my best friend served for eight years in various postions in the Marines. he was on the SAR team that pulled Scott O'Grady's crying ass out of Bosnia in the 90's. so don't lecture me like i've no idea what i'm talking about. I know some of my ****, so suss out who your calling a REMF. If were going the Arm chair general route, let talk about Arcades who was advocating deploying Tactical nukes on a confined urban populous. we cool now?

[MapMan]

umm, my Grandfather was in Army recon during WW2. my father ran a gun boat up and down Laos, two of my friends in additon to my shooting instructor were SEALs, and my best friend served for eight years in various postions in the Marines. he was on the SAR team that pulled Scott O'Grady's crying ass out of Bosnia in the 90's. we cool now? I am cool with everybody. My father makes aspahlt equipment. I don't have a clue as to what his work day is really like. I never have done that. My cousin is a doctor. I have watched ER. I took biology in college, that dosen't make me a medical expert. I see a guy dressed in a red suit at Christmas.....never mind that guy might actually be real.

[p2501]

I am cool with everybody. My father makes aspahlt equipment. I don't have a clue as to what his work day is really like. I never have done that. My cousin is a doctor. I have watched ER. I took biology in college, that dosen't make me a medical expert. I see a guy dressed in a red suit at Christmas.....never mind that guy might actually be real. well he thinks he's real untill the medication kicks in. point bieng, this wasn't specificly an "well i know military docterine untill TXleo showed up, and well he's kinda..... slo. the point we were arguing, is during armend conflict atrocites happen. it's an eventuality, and both sides commit them against one another. Arcades was agruing the fact that no matter what the US is always in the right, which is hideously off. i swear there was a point to some of that....

[MapMan]

We are not always right. Who is ? Anyway, I have been there and done that and would gladly do it again. I came to this forum to talk about zombies. Have fun arguing.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

Unless you have been around the people and worked with the people that you are talking about how the hell would you know ? If you have not spent any time in the field with troops then you shouldn't talk shi*. How do you know about some hot ass that wants to be Rambo ? Just seeing if we were there at the same time. It's funny when people jump to conclusions about shi* they really know nothing about. You're absolutely right...until I've been around and have worked with a bunch of idiots, I will in the future refrain from commenting on them. Cheers.

[Exatreides]

I think we can all agree that in war things happen. However I don't think that just because the enemy tortures people we should in response. If they start suicide bombing....why don't we? America is supposed to be the good guys, supposed to be the guys that make people smile. Not the faction that people run from. The liberal media? Come on guys, for every CNN corrospondent, theirs a FOX news one right next to them. So in other words, if you think what your watching is to "liberal" change the channel over to 54, or whatever Faux news is for you. Nukes? Come on Arc, not only would deploying even a small grade weapon in Iraq would not only kill civilans and embolden the ENTIRE Iraqi population against us, have the world begin UN led embargo's against OUR country, it would give Iran justifcation to build their own weapon. What do you suggest about them? Nuke em to?

[Adrenochrome]

There's something happening here What it is ain't exactly clear There's a man with a gun over there Telling me I got to beware I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody's wrong Young people speaking their minds Getting so much resistance from behind I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down What a field-day for the heat A thousand people in the street Singing songs and carrying signs Mostly say, hooray for our side It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down Paranoia strikes deep Into your life it will creep It starts when you're always afraid You step out of line, the man come and take you away We better stop, hey, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down Stop, hey, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down Stop, now, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down Stop, children, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down I've heard this song all my life. The ONE line that has always stood out is,.... "Everybody look what's going down." - Words of wisdom, my friends. peace...

[coma]

Guantanamo Bay, where dozens of people are held in prison, Actually, Its hundreds. (700+ at its peak) There is also another prison, actually in Afghanastan. that has hundreds more. Just a couple facts.

[Mike70]

Just seeing if we were there at the same time. It's funny when people jump to conclusions about shi* they really know nothing about. funny you should mention being there at the same time. there was a longtime board member called devil dog - turns out that he and i were in somalia at the time and we were in honduras at the same time. small world sometimes, huh? sorry i missed your original post about this in the large numbers of posts in this thread. i was a specialist when i got out. spent most of my time in the G3 operations branch of the 10th mountain division. also served in fla after hurricane andrew and went on the usual training exs - like NTC, etc. i didn't think you were trying to make me prove anything. in fact i thought that you were indeed trying to see if we were there at the same time. who were you with? As soon as someone starts talking about how smart they are, you know they really ARE that smart. Debating is not constantly challenging the intelligence and spelling of someone else, Scipio, it's actually using facts to back an argument. You are using your own personal experiences to back your claims that all torture is equal; I am pointing out the difference between being dismembered and being photographed naked. Again you miss that point. Because someone is or was with the military does not mean that that individual has an intimate knowledge about the military. Because I worked for Subway does not mean that I can tell you everything about it. You claim that the gubbment is behind the torturel show proof. I don't mean an article in the news where those on trial claim it, I mean proof positive, like the WMDs we found in Iraq, like the soldiers' dismembered bodies being found. And Ned DID say he was against the US, remember? It's good to have a view on a subject that you know about. It's even better to respect the views of others and not resort to childish namecalling and "I'msmarter than you are." Besides, my dad was a Vietnam veteran and he could beat up yours. well first of all i think you have proved in these highly illogical, fallacy ridden posts that you that know nothing about the principles of debate or reasoned arguement. your words - suggesting using nukes, for example, make be believe that you are limited in critical thinking in particular and intellectual skills in general. i have never said that i was smarter than anyone. i said you lack the intellectual skill to engage in a debate with me. which i think that your posts have more than proved. there is a difference between smarts and intellect. i also said that i probably have more of an education (change that i definitely have a better education than you), more life skill and more experience at reasoned debate. i have never claimed to be a military expert. i have said over and over that my personal experience of war and violence have given a deep, deep repugnance for both. i understand what war does to people on both sides because i have seen it up close. i am not using personal experiences to claim all torture is equal. i have maintained over and over again that all torture, no matter who employs it, is wrong and morally degrading to those who do employ it. i have never said the government was behind torture. i have never maintained that it was some sort of official policy. the US is only sponsoring it by extention because the soldiers engaged in it are representing the US. the lack of an official policy is most likely the reason that such acts are being committed by US soldiers. i said all use of torture was wrong - no matter who employed and that killing was wrong - period. wrong when terrorists do it and wrong when the US govt. sponsors it by engaging in war and sending soldiers off without clear cut directives and guidance on how to behave. again you are engaging in one of the hallmarks of fallacious thinking and bad debate. you cannot rationally argue your point so you are seizing on any little thing, attempting to blow it up, totally out of proportion, and make it look like it proves some point you are trying to make. as for name calling, i think you should take a long hard look at your and tlxleo's posts before you throw any stones about this. i maintain that the two of you are, in fact, little boys. no name calling intended - that is simply how i view the two of you. immature and trite without a clue in the world as to what you are speaking of.

[MinionZombie]

True, that is the thing, it's reported by the liberal, pandering media *cough* BBC *cough* that everyone in Iraq hates all of us, but we never see the good that has come of getting rid of Saddam. We never see that stuff and the bad that Saddam did is skimmed over, even his trial has turned into a farce. Not at all the serious proceedings for someone who is a genocidal maniac... Have a goosey gander in the Games forum for my views on the Prey demo...