Why we fight; also a reason for the usage of high-yield nuclear weapons

[Arcades057]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The bodies of two U.S. soldiers found in Iraq Monday night were mutilated and booby-trapped, military sources said Tuesday. Pfc. Kristian Menchaca and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker went missing after a Friday attack on a traffic control checkpoint in Yusufiya, 12 miles (20 km) south of Baghdad. The sources said the two men had suffered severe trauma. The bodies also had been desecrated, and a visual identification was impossible -- part of the reason DNA testing was being conducted to verify their identities, the sources said. A tip from Iraqi civilians led officials to the bodies, military sources told CNN. The discovery was made about 7:30 p.m. Monday. Not only were the bodies booby-trapped, but homemade bombs also lined the road leading to the victims, an apparent effort to complicate recovery efforts and target recovery teams, the sources said. It took troops 12 hours to clear the area of roadside bombs. One of the bombs exploded, but there were no injuries.(Watch sad end to desperate search for soldiers -- 1:31) The bodies were found in the Yusufiya area, Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said, adding he believes the soldiers were mortally wounded, then moved. It was unclear whether he meant the wounds were suffered in the initial attack on a checkpoint or afterward. "Where we found them was not based on their own movements," he said. The soldiers' families have been notified of the developments, he said. The bodies were transferred to a coalition base and were to be taken to the United States for DNA testing. Caldwell said he had not heard whether a note was placed on the bodies. A high-ranking official with the Iraqi defense ministry had earlier offered a conflicting account, telling CNN Tuesday that the soldiers' bodies were found on Saturday in Jurf al-Sakhar town about 80 km (50 miles) south of Baghdad. Group claims killings Meanwhile, a claim posted on a Web site Tuesday said the soldiers were "slaughtered" in accordance with God's will. "We announce the good news to our Islamic nation that we executed God's will and slaughtered the two crusader animals we had in captivity," says the claim, reportedly from the Mujahedeen Shura Council, a group linked to al Qaeda. "And God has given our Emir, Abu Hamza al-Muhajer, the good fortune of carrying out the legitimate court's command in person." CNN cannot independently verify the claim, but it was posted on a Web site which frequently has carried such messages from insurgent groups. Asked whether he gives credibility to a Monday claim by the same group that it had abducted the soldiers, Caldwell responded, "Absolutely not." Earlier, military spokesman Maj. William Wilhoite told CNN he did not know whether the bodies showed signs of torture. "I haven't heard anything through our official channels," he said. The U.S. military said Spc. David J. Babineau, 25, of Springfield, Massachusetts, was killed in the Friday attack, after which Menchaca and Tucker went missing. Asked to provide more information about the attack, Caldwell said the military would provide details -- possibly as soon as Tuesday night -- after making sure the soldiers' families were fully apprised about the incident. (Watch for the witnesses' description of the suspected abduction -- 2:54) Menchaca's aunt told CNN the family had been notified of his death. Menchaca's uncle, Mario Vasquez, said family members were distraught, and were waiting to receive the body before making any arrangements. Earlier, some family members heard of the possible discovery through the media, before being notified by the military, Vasquez said. "I wish they'd punish the people that do these kinds of things right away, instead of taking forever and spending millions of dollars," Vasquez said. "I think, you capture them, make them pay for what they did. Don't think that it's just two more soldiers. Don't negotiate anything. They [the killers] didn't. They didn't negotiate it with my nephew. They didn't negotiate it with Tucker." Another of Menchaca's uncles, Ken MacKenzie, lashed out at the government Tuesday on NBC's "Today Show," saying it didn't do enough to bring the men home safe, The Associated Press reported. (Full story) A force of more than 8,000 Iraqi and U.S. troops has been searching for the two soldiers. Searchers initially found a body that was thought to be one of the service members', Caldwell said, but turned out not to be. Caldwell said troops used unmanned aerial vehicles, helicopters, boats and dive teams in the search. (Watch how search uses land, air, water resources -- 2:59) One coalition soldier was killed and 8 were wounded during the search operations, he said. Two "anti-Iraqi elements" were killed and another 78 suspected insurgents have been detained, he added. The three soldiers involved in Friday's attack were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) out of Fort Campbell, Kentucky, the military said. CNN's Barbara Starr, Cal Perry, and Ed Lavandera contributed to this report. Copyright 2006 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report. Now here's my question to the "they're just missunderstood" elements who frequent these forums: Is this sort of behavior (mutilating POWs) an acceptable course of action to driving the enemy out of your lands, IN YOUR MINDS. Personally I think it's time to be done with the niceness we've tried showing to these creatures. No more Club Gitmo, no more put up your hands and surrender, it's time to wipe this element of the world's population off of the map. Remember the Golden Rule? Do unto others? Well apparently this is how they want us to treat them, so I say we oblige them. Save the idiotic "well it's those soldiers' faults for being there" BS, because if you really feel that way you deserve to be committed.

[tju1973]

Now here's my question to the "they're just missunderstood" elements who frequent these forums: Is this sort of behavior (mutilating POWs) an acceptable course of action to driving the enemy out of your lands, IN YOUR MINDS. Personally I think it's time to be done with the niceness we've tried showing to these creatures. No more Club Gitmo, no more put up your hands and surrender, it's time to wipe this element of the world's population off of the map. Remember the Golden Rule? Do unto others? Well apparently this is how they want us to treat them, so I say we oblige them. Save the idiotic "well it's those soldiers' faults for being there" BS, because if you really feel that way you deserve to be committed. Truthfully, what is the point in having the bomb and not using it? Plus if we nuke it, we still can slant drill the oil... Yes, I agree with you..

[Arcades057]

Well, the using the bomb was actually hyperbole. I wouldn't really want us to do that unless there were a lot of other criteria met.

[Philly_SWAT]

Well, I do not approve of such tactics by our ememies. But my thoughts are, it does not seem as if anyone on our side is interested at all at the motivations of the .... insurgents, terrorists, whatever you want to call them. Fact on the matter is, we have been dropping bombs on arab countries almost daily for more than a decade. Imagine that the sides were switched. Imagine if the US was very inferior as far as arms go, and a foreign land was dropping bombs all the time around the US. Your high school where you met your sweetheart? Destroyed. Your best friend? Killed in a bombing. Your mom? Multilated in an air strike. Then they invaded your home state, in an effort to "liberate" you from an evil Governor. That invasion includes more bombings, which are very effective at taking out targets. How much remorse woould you feel for mutilating one of the invaders? Would you volunteer to plant a car bomb near their staging area? Now, you could say "but that's rediculous, our Governor is not evil". That may be true, but if this world superpower, who the rest of the world was afraid to challenge, told the world that it was true, and they were acting whether the rest of the world approved or not, what would it matter? Again, I am not defending the actions of our enemies. But our government gave false reasons for entering this conflict. I dont think that is in dispute. So what are these people supposed to think? And where did Irag get all these guns, anyway? Why ,from us, thats where. We were more than glad to funnel guns to them when they were fighting Iran back in the day. I could ramble on, but my point is, I think that the US has proven (not that it was even in question) that our military is far superior to any other in the world. But we are still not trying to understand these people, and figure out the motovations of our "enemies". Forcing democracy on people at the point of a gun only serves to make the rich get richer. To me, that is the unfortunate truth as to what this is all about. I do not have an answer as to what our policy should be. I would like to see every American soldier out of Irag right now. But that could be a dissasterous event for the world, and the people of Irag. It is a mess that we have created. We lied about the reasons for going to war. There has been scandal after scandal as a result. We had no plan to keep the peace, no plan to facilitate our exit, no plan to rebuild the infascructure. If we were truly concerned about the "poor, innocent people of Irag" and felt an obligation to go into their country and "liberate" them, where is the plan as to what we were going to do once we took control and got Saddam? What was the plan.....hang around indefinately while 2,500 Americans get killed? On the surface, it seems an abhorent act to torture and multilate other human beings. But until you are faced with the situation that those people are in, it would seem difficult to me to pass judgement. We hear what are government says, but they are already revealed to be liars. What are our enemies over there hearing? We do not know for sure. This whole conflict was a huge clusterf**k from day one. I only know one thing for sure, that all of these contractors like Haliburton that are over there are making billions and billions of our taxpayer dollars, and the situation seems no where near coming to a conclusion.

[Mike70]

what about the detainees that have been tortured by US forces? those incidents of torture that led to several court-martials and a world wide stink. what about the soldiers from the 101st that are being charged with the murders & attempted cover up of said murders of several iraqi detainees? what about the massacre at haditha? please don't think i am defending the insurgents. i am not. i have a complete and total repugnance for violence that is born of the fact that i have seen so much of it and know exactly what it does to people. killing people is wrong - period. it is wrong when terrorist/insurgents do it and it is wrong when the us govt. sponsors it as well. i am simply trying to point out the utter one-sideness of your comments. you also don't seem to take into account that we are invaders and people are going to resist. how would you feel if your country were invaded? would you worry about rules and the geneva convention? or would you try to resist and inflict harm on the invaders in any way you could? please don't try to pretend that the US armed forces are somehow golden boys who never break the rules and never commit the sorts of atrocities that you are so fast to condemn the arab insurgents for. i was in the US army for 3 years and served in somalia for 6 months. i have seen things done by both sides in conflict that should churn the stomach of any rational, reasonable, decent person.

[EvilNed]

Ever since the American Civil War, civilians and innocents have suffered on a massive scale. Infact, civilians and innocents have always suffered in warfare. And remember, the US started this war. The US started it, and now you can't deal with what's happening to US soldiers? Did you think it was going to be a cakewalk? Did you think people would just let you occupy their land without giving you a fight? Please. While I am against the war, that's not what this is about. I'm not against the US either (well, Ok, so I am. There are many reasons why I despise US politics). But this is what you ASKED for. This is what you should EXPECT. This is WAR. Guantanamo Bay, where dozens of people are held in prison, being tortured and interrogated on a daily basis and they don't even get a trial or a lawyer. Maybe that's something you should direct your attention to, if you feel bad for innocent people. It's closer, and it's maybe something you can have an effect on. Again, this is a war. It is a war that the US wanted. The US should be prepared for, and deal with, the consequences.

[Danny]

i thought we only fought for al-kee-hol and the ladies

[Arcades057]

While I am against the war, that's not what this is about. I'm not against the US either (well, Ok, so I am. There are many reasons why I despise US politics). But this is what you ASKED for. This is what you should EXPECT. This is WAR. In a war one does not go expecting to be taken prisoner and then cut into pieces. One understands that death is a possibility, true, but not torture and dismemberment. As to your dislike of the US, that's about as ignorant and stupid as being a racist and I feel sorry for you. Maybe you should try learning a little bit more about a people before making your assumptions.

[EvilNed]

In a war one does not go expecting to be taken prisoner and then cut into pieces. One understands that death is a possibility, true, but not torture and dismemberment. As to your dislike of the US, that's about as ignorant and stupid as being a racist and I feel sorry for you. Maybe you should try learning a little bit more about a people before making your assumptions. Ok, that made about as much sense as a bunch of sausages caught in a freighttrain to the arctic, but I'll let it slide. Please provide arguments for why my me despising politics is racist and ignorant? Because if you can't, then you shouldn't have said it. A war is a war. You guys aren't innocent of torture yourself, so don't start throwing stones.

[Mike70]

In a war one does not go expecting to be taken prisoner and then cut into pieces. One understands that death is a possibility, true, but not torture and dismemberment. As to your dislike of the US, that's about as ignorant and stupid as being a racist and I feel sorry for you. Maybe you should try learning a little bit more about a people before making your assumptions. as a matter of fact, chester, one should expect torture if one falls into the hands of certain enemies. i understood that if i were captured in somalia the treatment that i would get would not be in accordance with the geneva convention nor would it be like club med. i am a US citizen(i think evilned has lived over here before & might even be a US citizen, before moving to sweden - ned correct me if this is wrong) and i hate us politics and policies with a passion also. this country is on the wrong path entirely and we are being led down that path by a bunch of jackasses who care for nothing other than profit and putting even more money into the pockets of the rich. bush is the worst president since herbert hoover, hands down and as a "leader" i wouldn't follow the man to a free indian buffet - and i love indian food. you can whine and cry about the ill treatment of POWs all you want. you can close your eyes to the fact that it seems like everyday there is some new instance of ill treatment, torture, even outright murder of iraqi civilians and detainees. you can close your eyes and pretend that the US armed forces are knights in shining armor, full of virtue, who would never break the rules - but as for me, my eyes are wide f*cking open. a great character once said something very true: "understanding is a three edged sword."

[p2501]

Now here's my question to the "they're just missunderstood" elements who frequent these forums: Is this sort of behavior (mutilating POWs) an acceptable course of action to driving the enemy out of your lands, IN YOUR MINDS. Personally I think it's time to be done with the niceness we've tried showing to these creatures. No more Club Gitmo, no more put up your hands and surrender, it's time to wipe this element of the world's population off of the map. Remember the Golden Rule? Do unto others? Well apparently this is how they want us to treat them, so I say we oblige them. Save the idiotic "well it's those soldiers' faults for being there" BS, because if you really feel that way you deserve to be committed. 1) because this attack clearly wasn't retalitpry for the US JDAMing the #1 Al-Queada guy in Iraq? 2) what is the sense in deploying weapons of mass destruction against a core element of fighters that are non indegenous to the region? 3) way to be reactionary. In a war one does not go expecting to be taken prisoner and then cut into pieces. One understands that death is a possibility, true, but not torture and dismemberment. As to your dislike of the US, that's about as ignorant and stupid as being a racist and I feel sorry for you. Maybe you should try learning a little bit more about a people before making your assumptions. bullsit again. name for me one war the US has been involved in where doccumented atrocities have NOT occured? and atrocities were not commited by either side. we executed POWs in Veitnam, so did the NVA. we executed POWs in Korea, so did the Koreans. we executed POWs in Germany and the south pacific. likewise their respective armies did the same. you hypothesizing about some fictional standard the US military upholds, and atleast to me is based largely on what you've seen in movies, or bad TV shows. not reality. Torture and dismemberment occurs where ever there is prolonged armed conflict.

[EvilNed]

(i think evilned has lived over here before & might even be a US citizen, before moving to sweden - ned correct me if this is wrong) No need for correction. I am a US citizen, but I'm not living there. Just wanted to make that clear, I'm not some Euro yuppie who hates the US "just because" and who try to be anti-capitalist, without really knowing what a capitalist is. They annoy me too. The US, like all countries, has flaws. Most of them can be found in the goverment, not the ideals or the people.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

One understands that death is a possibility, true, but not torture and dismemberment. I'm assuming you are a supporter of this administration and this war. This administration that condones the use of torture. That is interesting. One of the many, many reasons we should all denounce torture outright is that it pretty much lowers our own moral standards and makes it "okay" for people to use torture against us. It's very easy now for other countries/enemies to say "Well, how come it's only okay when you do it, and it's not okay for us to do it?" This administration, through this war, has brought an incredible amount of shame on this country. As for those two soldiers...I think it's terrible. I can't imagine what they went through and what their families are going through right now. I fear the video footage that I assume will eventually turn up on the internet. It turns my stomach. But we can't say that this is in any way unexpected. This isn't anything new. I, for one, expected it. I did indeed think that after we got Zarqawi (and really, the world is a better place without him), and we paraded his corpse on every news channel, and then Bush decided it was time to visit Iraq and toot his horn, because he's so damn cocksure of everything, someone, somewhere would do something to remind us that this is no where near in the bag--like we were lead to believe it would be.

[mista_mo]

Personally, I think it's horrible what happened to the soldiers..but it is war, and like people have said before, it's going to happen. sure, people would like to think that each side will follow the rules, but it sure as hell isn't going to happen. I do not condone what they did to the two men, but again, it is a war, and atrocities are commited in war. It happens in every war humanity has ever fought, and I believe that is ingrained inside of us. not the act of torture, but trying to win a conflict anyway possible. The insurgents could be using this as a moral drain, in the hopes that it may make the soldiers not fight, and dis-obey commands too fight. I mean, they may be trying to ingrain in our minds that if we fight them, we could end up like that. Thats just my little take on it myself. oh, and if you don't believe me about the atrocities commited in Mankinds history of war and conflict (which is a holy hell of alot) check it out cometime, and you'll see that neither side, no matter where it is from, has done stuff similar to this before. no one is perfect, and the need for revenge and retribution is something that we'd all feel if put into the situation.

[Mike70]

Personally, I think it's horrible what happened to the soldiers..but it is war, and like people have said before, it's going to happen. the need for revenge and retribution is something that we'd all feel if put into the situation. it is horrible, in fact everything that happens in war is horrible and that is the exact reason that we need to turn our backs on this outrageous, primative past time before we end up either destroying ourselves and/or our homeworld. i don't not understand violence anymore. nor do i understand the need to engage in it to achieve a political or religous end. my time in somalia taught me one very, very big lesson - violence simply begets more violence. nothing good ever comes of it- only murder and pain which leads to yet more murder and pain. someone has to be big enough to step away. why is it considered by many heroic to kill "them" but yet an atrocity when one of "us" is killed? it is just this sort of one-dimensional, myopic thinking that has led humankind to make so many mistakes with so many terrible consequences. like i said in my post above - i have a complete and total repugnance for violence born of the fact that i have seen real violence and war up close and what i saw sickened, shocked, and repulsed me to a degree that as i have gotten older i have become more and more opposed to violence and war. killing other human beings (except in an act of self-defense like some lunatic attacking you with a knife or a similar situation) is WRONG - period end of discussion. WRONG when terrorists/insurgents do it and WRONG when govts. give young, impressionable people the license to kill and then condone that killing as heroic. there is NOTHING heroic about warfare - it is sheer and complete organized mass murder.