 Originally Posted by JDFP
Really, he should have waved goodbye to her and said: "Well, guess you've decided you want to kill yourself. Take care! Adios, amigo!" and then headed off with the rest of them? You don't do that to someone you love as Dale obviously loves Andrea.
You're right, you don't. What you should do is everything you REASONABLY can do to PERSUADE your loved one to make what *you* FEEL is the right decision in the time you've got (in a time-limited situation such as that), but I'm sorry it's JUST WRONG in my vehement yet humble opinion to emotionally blackmail someone into passing up an instant and absolutely painless death for what, in all likelihood from everything they knew then and what they know now, will be one of two equally horrible deaths. Either A) Suffering the terror and excruciating pain of (temporarily) surviving a vicious flesh-rending attack by one or more flesh-hungry "drooling freaks", and then having to experience a slow, demonstrably miserable and agonizing wasting sickness that forces you to choose between experiencing a violently brutal "euthanasia" before dying and subsequently reanimating, and/or foregoing said bullet or blunt trauma and, but being tortured mentally and emotionally by the thought of what your body will become once the sickness finally kills you. Or B) Experiencing the equally, albeit different, horrifying sensation(s) of being EATEN ALIVE a mouthful at a time (a 1-2 Walker attack), or ripped apart as you scream, gurgle and, finally, gasp out your last agonizingly conscious breath before the small blessing that is severe shock finally drives you blessedly from consciousness so you don't have to experience the last few moments of your life as a hunk of meat and viscera being fought over by your ravenously mindless pack of ghoulish slayers. Do I, and would I, understand the temptation to "make the right decision" (In my opinion, assuming for a moment I felt as Dale was portrayed as feeling at that time) for my loved one in such a situation because I, selfishly, didn't want to lose them/go on with life without them? ABSOLUTELY!!! However, that's not the most important question to be asked about such a situation, and the choices one could/would make as a result of that situation. The most important question to be asked (Again, IMO) is: "Do I/Would I HAVE THE RIGHT to give in to that temptation and take such an INCREDIBLY VITAL DECISION **AWAY** from my loved one in THAT situation? For me, and again in my very-strongly-held opinion, the answer is a definitive, unequivocal, ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! To do so is, (one more time: IMHO) a greater violation of said Loved One (Andrea, in Dale's case) than if he'd held her pinned to the ground and RAPED HER. What Dale did in robbing her of her self-determination by victimizing her via playing on her desire not to be responsible for HIS death wasn't simply WRONG, it was EVIL.
Here's one of the Definitions of Evil I found on Wikipedia: This being the source link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil#cite_note-12 or 13. (Peck: 1978/1992,p.298):
Abuses political (emotional) power ("the imposition of one's will upon others by overt or covert coercion")
Dale certainly imposed his will upon Andrea by overt coercion. This makes his act, however the character or another might justify it, by the statements/viewpoints and definition given (Peck's/Wikipedia's and mine) by literal definition: Evil. Now, whether one can make a successful and valid argument that Dale's act of Evil is justifiable as an act of "Necessary Evil" is a question I will reserve judgment on until I've read what the proponents of the Dale-character's decision have had their say.
Originally Posted by JDFP
I think he's going too far in putting her into the role of a daughter as she is not his daughter (i.e. the "who holds the gun debate") but the wrong move would have been in letting her kill herself when he obviously loves her. It took great courage and strength for Dale to say: "You know what? The hell with it, if you're not leaving I'm not either." and plopping down beside her and I give the man great kudos for it. He had the guts to stand up to telling her how much he really cared. And good for him for saving her life. He should be commended for the action, in my opinion.
I agree that Dale compounds the problem (and the negative effect of his actions upon Andrea), as well as Andrea's perception that she no longer belonged with the group once Dale pulled Shane into the argument and Shane gave his little (and obviously hypocritical then and there to both the Andrea-character and myself) speech about not wanting guns floating around the group in the hands of the untrained members of the group, even as Shane advocates giving the guns of the people he doesn't think should have them to Dale, who has no more training than Andrea, in the same breath. Dale treating Andrea not only as a daughter-figure, but a daughter figure he sees it as only right and proper that he continue to determine what is in her best interests for her, in the same way he considers it right and proper to dismiss and/or ignore her attempts to choose and act for herself as the grown woman she is only continues to compound the damage Dale is doing to both Andrea's mental and emotional states.
I will go a step further and restate my opinion that Dale loving Andrea justifies his coercing her out of the choice she'd made about as much as a stalker's "love" justifies said stalker in killing the boyfriend of the object of his affection after said stalker witnesses said boyfriend being unfaithful to his girlfriend, who the stalker is obsessed with. To put it another way, Dale's "love" in NO WAY justifies forcing his forcing her to live by entering into an unwanted "suicide pact" ("You die, I die" is exactly what that is) with Andrea against her will. It didn't take great courage and strength for an old, terribly lonely man, who's been terribly lonely for years before the dead began to rise, to choose to end his life if Andrea refused to continue easing his loneliness. Once he did that, Dale had put himself in a "win-win situation" FOR HIMSELF. Either his effort to selfishly coerce Andrea into continuing to live until dying a horrible death she was DESPERATE TO AVOID would succeed because Andrea was a far more ethical, principled individual than himself, and Andrea would still be around to ease the loneliness he felt and continue to give him a purpose (trying to make Andrea's decisions for her "for her own good" as if she were a child), or his coercion would fail and he wouldn't have to face his pain and loneliness without her because he'd be dead too. Simultaneous with achieving this win-win situation for himself, Dale (again, selfishly and fearfully) placed Andrea in a lose-lose situation. If she didn't give in to his coercion she'd suffer guilt for her last moments instead of the peace Dale had torn away, and if she did give in as it turned out she chose to because of an ethical and principled nature utterly foreign to Dale, she was forced to continue struggling through each terror-and-misery-filled day until the probability of her unimaginably horrible death (the fear of not knowing exactly when it would arrive having been with her every moment from the time she left the CDC with her blackmailer and would-be keeper until that unspeakable death finally arrived to claim her.
No, great courage and strength on Dale's part would have been wanting her to live so he wouldn't be alone again and so he wouldn't have to grieve for her, but after every one of his reasonable and ethical attempts to persuade her to come with him had failed would have been saying: (Dale): "You're sure this is what you want kiddo?" (Andrea): "100%,....I just...don't want to die being ripped apart by a bunch of drooling freaks!" Then (Dale): "I wish there was something more,...something I could say or do that'd convince you to come with me....but I can't force you to live for my sake when this is what you want. I...I love you Andrea, and I'm going to miss you more than I could ever say. Please...." (Andrea): "Dale...don't do this to yourself. It's my decision, and I'm choosing to go and be with Amy. As Rick would say, this is on me, not you. Now go, before it's too late. The others still need you...I love you too, but I just can't live this nightmare one more day. I hope you'll understand, and maybe forgive me for running out the back door, but either way, this is something I have to do. (Andrea & Dale hug, tears trickle down the old guy's grizzled unshaven face and he tentatively starts for the door, stops, but as he starts to turn back Andrea gives him a gentle shove towards the door. Dale leaves, breaking into a lumbering lope with his head down as he rushes from the building seconds before being thrown to the ground a couple dozen feet from the hole Rick blasted in the window when the bomb(s) go off. Woodenly, numb and all but expressionless, Dale climbs aboard the RV and the remaining survivors move out and away from the collapsed and still-burning CDC.)
THAT would be great wisdom AND strength. To realize if he REALLY loves her, and he's convinced she's lucid and knows what she's doing, that he has to let her go for her sake...however hard it will be for him without her. It would've taken great courage to climb behind the wheel of that RV and slowly head out with the rest of the convoy, when it feels like a part of him just died too, and it's tearing a great chunk out of his heart and leaving behind a hole it doesn't feel like it will ever close to go on, but go on he does, because he knows he has to look to the needs of the living even as he mourns the dead.
No, what Dale did didn't take guts. All it took was being too selfish to be able to TRULY empathize with just how badly Amy's loss had broken Andrea, because he was too busy focusing on the fear of losing someone who'd become HIS anchor. All it took was being more afraid of facing the loneliness he'd known since his wife's death PLUS the current nightmare-reality than he was afraid of dying. Plopping down next to Andrea, and in doing so forcing her hand....that was about Dale and his needs. Not Andrea and her needs.
Originally Posted by JDFP
Saying she should be grateful is completely accurate, she should be, and if she doesn't end up running off somewhere there will be a time somewhere down the road I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't realize how grateful she is in still being alive and how much she owes to Dale for still being around.
So, to recap: Andrea should be GRATEFUL that, on the heels of her sister's tragic loss...that was part of an event that demonstrated just how sudden and brutal, or slow and agonizing the end could come, and how arbitrary who made it through another day and for who today was THE DAY it would all end so hideously...That Dale ripped a choice she was at peace with away from her by threatening to douse her hands with his blood, and that to really grind the salt into the wound his actions had torn wide open in her he casually plucks away her threadbare safety blanket, because HE "isn't comfortable" with her having her father's gun. Demonstrating definitively and absolutely so far as Andrea is concerned that all Dale gives a damn about is how Dale thinks things should be. That she's just supposed to shut up, let him pat her on the head and say "Don't worry sweetie, Daddy is here to make all these big bad decisions for you. Now, give Daddy a smile and run along, and maybe when you've shown me you can be a Good Girl I'll let you have your Ga-Gun back.
People say things a lot that are over-dramatic on our beloved forums, but I'm serious ass a heart attack about this. If I was in Andrea's shoes and Dale had done what he'd just done, and THEN taken my gun and forced me to feel vulnerable and exposed and (hatefully) dependent on others, I would have stabbed him right in the throat with the pig-sticker they "approved" of me having. Worst they could do would be a bullet to the brain, and a) I would have delivered justice for how Dale had violated me, and b) Gotten back my right to go out without being ripped apart alive. Quick and painlessly.
THAT is what I think of Dale's sanctimonious "Not thinking a little GRATITUDE would be asking too much!!!" Yay, I'm stuck in a group primarily consisting of the opposite sex, one of whom believes they have a Divine Mandate to make even the most fundamentally, intimately personal of choices for me via the most despicable sort of coercion. Now, just to remove all doubt that, despite having demonstrated myself to be among the calmest, most level-headed members of the group, I'm a second-class-citizen of this little village on wheels and I'm expected to be GRATEFUL for having my most important decision made for me and forced into being infuriatingly dependent on individuals who've all demonstrated they're either psychologically or morally deficient compared to me. Then, just for giggles, they continue to underscore just what bullshit their little "No guns for untrained people" argument really was, as Lori is casually offered first Rick's hand-cannon, and then the snub-nose Daryle took off the suicide-camper.
Yea, homicide is sounding more and more reasonable with every passing moment. After all, at least if I kill the bastard trying to turn me back into a child the rest of the group will have to stop and take stock of just how vile the treatment I'd been subjected to in the course of deciding what to do about me.
Originally Posted by JDFP
Of course, I could be wrong, she could be cursing Dale as she's ripped apart by zombies. 
Realistically, expect the cursing. Looking at it from Andrea's perspective it wouldn't matter to me if life improved a million times over. I still wouldn't EVER forgive Dale for what he did, and wouldn't so much as yell a "Dale, behind you!" if a Walker was staggering up behind his old sanctimonius self. Andrea's being WAY more tolerant and forgiving than I would be by simply making plans to bail. No doubt in the wake of Carl's shooting the group control-freak He-Men will only grow even more neurotic about who has "the right" to carry a firearm.
That said, TV being what it is: I wouldn't be surprised if you turn out to be right about some completely unrealistic touchy-feely reconciliation between Andrea & Dale. I'm still aggravated she didn't just assault Dale and take her gun back. He's an old guy, and she's in her prime. The argument about the Walker-Herd hearing the shot if she'd had a gun is VERY tenuous IMO. Worst-case, they woulda swarmed the RV. No reason to believe that would've lead to anyone else being discovered.
Total non-sequitor: Have you noticed Daryl is almost entirely out of X-bow bolts? Wonder why he hasn't been retrieving them given the penetration they've gotten. With the broadhead entirely out the back of the skull, by definition the wound tract is wide enough to pull the bolt straight through undamaged.
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