The Shane Topic..

[krisvds]

Great episode and great mid season finale, i cant wait until February now. Agree with alot of the comments here except i find myself defending Shane again, i really don't think he's the bad guy and i don't know exactly why alot of you seem to think he is? To me, Shane is the most down to earth person out of the entire group, when they left atlanta at the end of season 1..   i was quite pissed off that they had kept shane and not run into tyreese, who i guess would be shanes replacement in the group in the comics.. ..but ive really come to like him as season 2 has progressed and im with him all the way now, like i said, he is the most realistic and down to earth character out of the entire group, also id really like to see dale get it. He just really comes across as an arrogant prick who has on several occassions endangered the group just to fulfill his own selfish ends. I hope they write him out seeing as nobody is safe and id be satisfied to see shane do it. Wouldn't some who haven't read the comics consider that to be a spoiler? Anyways, people not liking Shane has probably got something to do with him considering gunning down his best friend in season 1. That and using Otis as live zombie bait. Shane isn't evil just yet but clearly has some 'anger management issues.' Wouldn't surprise me if he split the entire group in two over a 'follow Rick or shane' dilemma. Straight into classic Romero 'man's inability to communicate properly is a worse threat than the undead' territory. Let's hope they stop stalling and just ...

[Andy]

Wouldn't some who haven't read the comics consider that to be a spoiler? Anyways, people not liking Shane has probably got something to do with him considering gunning down his best friend in season 1. That and using Otis as live zombie bait. Shane isn't evil just yet but clearly has some 'anger management issues.' Wouldn't surprise me if he split the entire group in two over a 'follow Rick or shane' dilemma. Straight into classic Romero 'man's inability to communicate properly is a worse threat than the undead' territory. Let's hope they stop stalling and just ... Point taken about the spoiler, and fixed.. i didnt even consider that so sorry guys. Anyway, i dont see shanes acts as evil, it has been a while since i sat down and watched season 1 i admit but i have to say i dont think shane had any real intentions of killing rick, there was a alot of conflicting emotion in there.. Shanes dedication to his best friend, his love for lori and his position as leader of the group which rick takes from him.. He's gonna be pissed off at rick, i can understand that and he points his gun at rick and thinks about it, but would he have pulled the trigger? I honestly doubt it. Look at the way he handled dale in 2x07.. He had him in a position in the swamp where they dont go, hella pissed off at him.. dale actually threatening to kill shane by pointing a gun in his chest and shane walks away, he dosnt even beat him. Remember the discussion from the episode where shane kills otis, it was said that shanes act was of necessity and not malice, He and otis where both injured badly, both almost out of ammo and the zombies where gaining on them, they where still a good distance from their truck too. Shane knew the zombies needed to be slowed down and he actually told otis to go on ahead and leave him before, he even gave otis the bag but he refused to leave him so shane did what he needed to to survive. I honestly believe if he had not pegged otis and left him to be eaten then both of them would have been killed and carl would have died during his surgery. Not an evil act, not the most honorable act either but necessary and would i do the same to you if me and you where in that position? Hell yes i would. At the end of the day, i dont get the cold blooded vibe from him at all.. He seems like a realistic guy doing what he thinks he needs to survive but also quite vulnerable at times, unlike daryl who just seems to be some kind of robot or any of the others who seem almost as deluded and unwilling to do the nesscessary as herschel.

[Trin]

At the end of the day, i dont get the cold blooded vibe from him at all.. He seems like a realistic guy doing what he thinks he needs to survive but also quite vulnerable at times, unlike daryl who just seems to be some kind of robot or any of the others who seem almost as deluded and unwilling to do the nesscessary as herschel. Shane is definitely one of the most interesting and layered characters in the series. I've enjoyed his character progression. But I can't agree that he's a good guy just doing what needs to be done. That's part of it, but there's more to it than that. Shane is at times duplicitous, aggressive, and self-serving. At other times he is brave, loyal, and selfless. I think he genuinely cares for Carl more than anyone in the show, and would do just about anything to protect him. I also think he is trying very hard to be a good and loyal follower of Rick, often supporting him in spite of his violent disagreement with Rick's choices. I was actually very encouraged that they had the big argument in the forest. That needed to happen to blow some of Shane's steam off. But Shane is cracking at the seams and that makes him unpredictable and risky. His allegiance to Rick is the ONLY thing keeping him from making really cold hearted choices. Rick is the only one Shane will defer to in any way. And Dale is right in that Shane is surviving by sacrificing too much of his humanity. If you take every character's actions and have complete 100% disclosure to the group of everything they've done, Shane comes out very badly. I think the group would see the actual events surrounding Otis' death as horrific and intolerable, but more than that, the fact that he lied about it would cause so much distrust of Shane that it would tear them apart. If the actions were justified (even if they were horrific) then he wouldn't have to lie about it. On the flip side, Dale would have some explaining to do, but his motivations are more in line with the group's, his actions less easily condemned, and he will look you right in the eye and tell you what he did and why when he's called on it.

[Wyldwraith]

While I don't believe Shane is "evil", I DO believe the man has a growing capacity for violence and the justification of "immoral acts", Not inherently evil, but it demonstrates a worrying predisposition and vulnerability to BECOMING evil if the pressure doesn't ease off. Shane is a mirror in a lot of ways, reflecting back the immoral decisions of other group members as tangible consequences. For instance, a lot of people point to Shane's veiled (and not so veiled in the swamp) threats made to Dale. Yet it seems like the same people are inclined to forget that Dale has aggressively come at Shane with some hardcore accusations and judgments, followed by Shane being confronted with Dale's hypocrisy as he does something that could have very well seriously endangered the group, but at the same time is judging Shane as a monster because he's insistent on countermanding Dale. Dale hiding the guns....the various ways that could have gone wrong had Shane not tracked him down and taken the guns back. 1) (Most obvious) Dale is OLD. Given the constant pressure and emotional roller-coaster they're all on 24/7, Dale could suddenly have a massive heart attack or stroke. Men far younger than Dale, and in MUCH BETTER health have dropped dead jogging (something they did every day, that was that individual's "normal"). What if Dale had been given the opportunity to announce that "for the good of the group" he's hidden the guns & ammo, and will only reveal the location when the danger of being evicted from the farm is past? They live in a VERY dangerous world, and it's not unreasonable to say that Dale might very well seem fine one minute and be gone the next. Just recently a dear friend's childhood friend of 15yrs, a 25yr old woman in perfect health, not overweight, and with no preexisting medical conditions played a major role in the setup for her own baby shower that day (she was 7+ months along)...and was bright-eyed and bushy-tailed the entire shower. Even after helping with the extensive clean-up, my friend's pregnant friend still felt well enough to drive my friend the 40 mins back to her place, and 40 mins back to her own home. 7 hours later, said pregnant friend awakened her husband and hurriedly informed him he needed to take her to the hospital because of the severe pain which had awakened her and the spotting that was happening. Inside of 15 mins they were at the hospital, where she was rushed into preparations for a C-section after a quick ultrasound and fetal heart monitor indicated her unborn child was in distress. Tragically...beyond tragically, her son was stillborn...and my friend's friend was moved to Recovery to wait for her to wake up after the anesthesia wore off. She never woke up. It was a massive cerebral hemmorhage that came out of nowhere. Nothing anyone could've done to see it coming, and nothing they could do once she coded. That was a woman in perfect health, young and strong, and in a modern hospital...and still she passed on. ;( My point is that survivors of a global catastrophe after all infrastructure has collapsed are vastly more vulnerable than my dear friend's friend was to a lethal health complication occurring. When you add the ADDITIONAL vulnerabilities/complications brought on by age it isn't an exaggeration to say that Dale could simply not wake up ever again after any given day. Then where would the group have been with the location of 95% of their guns and ammo having died with 1 old man...in the face of the major invasion the previews seem to be indicating? Shane had EVERY RIGHT to be FURIOUS with Dale for taking such a chance with all their lives. Yet (as someone else pointed out) Shane did nothing but mouth off a bit and take the guns/ammo back from Dale. Hardly the hallmark of a bloodthirsty psychopath...

[SymphonicX]

Shane's actions in ep 7 were obviously justified but let's not forget poor Otis - he shot the dude and left him for zombie food - that is evil in itself.

[Andy]

Shane's actions in ep 7 were obviously justified but let's not forget poor Otis - he shot the dude and left him for zombie food - that is evil in itself. Would you rather shane had allowed himself, otis and carl to all die by trying to do the "right" thing? I Honestly dont see his act as evil. It sucks for otis but it was nesscessary and shane knew it.

[Wyldwraith]

Agreed, What Shane did to Otis was (partially) self-serving, but because Shane tried first to get Otis to take the supplies and go on without him, Shane's subsequent shooting/using Otis as a decoy IS justifiable with a young boy's life hanging in the balance and the emotional/psychological stability of the group's leader and his wife tied to that precariously-hanging life. As someone else implied, I will outright state: Shane doing the so-called "right thing" and just hobbling onward as the zombies continue to close the intervening distance ends with Shane, Otis & Carl all dead, and Rick/Lori shattered. Shane TRIED to exercise his only other alternative, by trying to said Otis on ahead. When Otis refused, Shane was left with no other viable choice (besides DEATH) than to do what he did. I tend to judge an action morally based upon its outcome, and believe that in certain desperate survival situations the ends can indeed justify the means. Shane's decision saved 2 lives that otherwise would've been lost, and preserved Rick & Lori's emotional/psychological stability, at a net loss of one man who was offered an alternative but refused to make the difficult choice the circumstances demanded. Put more simply: What Shane did to Otis isn't admirable, but neither is it evil. Intent decides the moral context of any action taken. Shane's intent was to get the desperately-needed medical supplies to the man who could save his friend's son's life...a son that Shane has paternal feelings of his own for. Had Shane not made the offer to Otis for him to go on ahead, I might perceive Shane's ultimate decision differently. Yet he DID make the offer, so I view it as a terrible choice borne of grim necessity. Shane's actions at the barn are much the same. He TRIED to let Rick work it out. When his anxiety rose, Shane took his concerns back to Rick and renewed his voicing of those concerns. Again Rick told Shane to essentially sit tight and let him handle things with Herschel. Then, after days of inconclusive back-and-forth, the stressful and very screwed up events that precipitated the barn being opened went down. Here again we saw Shane trying to let the other man make the hard choice so he doesn't have to do something extreme. Like Otis, Rick refused to make the tough calls. Wrangling Walkers across the grounds of Herschel's farm after everything that had so recently happened seemed to me to be Rick's way of saying he was willing to abdicate pretty much any and all authority to Herschel to purchase a place on the farm for him and his. I think a lot of us would have found ourselves, were we in the situation the survivors find themselves in, and having experienced what they've experienced, affected deeply by the revelation that the barn a stone's through from where they're camping out has almost as many Walkers in it as the deadly assault on their earlier campsite. Under those circumstances, what doesn't make sense to anyone here? Accepting a firearm with which to defend yourself in case something goes wrong with Rick and Herschel's zombie-wrangling, doing away with said zombie threat rather than adding to it? I think most people couldn't and wouldn't, having experienced the previous campsite attack, be comfortable under ANY circumstances with a rickety barn full of zombies very near where they sleep outside of any secured shelter.

[Andy]

Could not have explained the situation better myself Wyld. Imho shane isnt evil at all but he is the most realistic character out of the entire group, also by far the best written and deepest character too. He has quickly become my favourite character this season.

[babomb]

Would you rather shane had allowed himself, otis and carl to all die by trying to do the "right" thing? I Honestly dont see his act as evil. It sucks for otis but it was nesscessary and shane knew it. That's my take on it as well. I don't see Shane as an "evil-doer" either. His ways are hard-edged. When you look at it through Shanes eyes, Otis shot Carl so if someone had to die to save Carl it should've been Otis. It's not like Shane and Otis were in a position to stop and discuss the situation. In all reality, Otis didn't have much of a chance to make it on his own even if Shane had sacrificed himself. Not a gamble Shane was gonna make. If they were to make it back with the medical supplies it was gonna be up to Shane to make that happen. Otis would've likely fallen behind anyway before they got to the truck. Then Shane would've had to go back and get the pack that Otis was carrying, and the chances would've been great that Shane would've been taken down as well. Which would've meant Carl would've died also, in all likelyhood. So Shane was forced to make a decision during an extremely stressful situation where there wasn't time to weigh out every option and no room for error. So Shane did what he felt he had to do. It's not like he smile killed Otis. He also apologized before he shot him. Not that an apology means much in that situation. It just shows that it wasn't something he wanted to do or liked doing. Then in the next episode he tells Andrea that during those types of situations you fall back on instinct, and when someone's gonna die you better make sure you're the one that's making that decision, you "flip the switch" and then deal with your decision later. He also says he hasn't gotten the "deal with your decision later" part down so well. Which means his conscience bothers him. I also keep seeing people say that Shane is "coming apart at the seams" or "falling off the deep end". I don't see that either. IMO, seeing Shane as evil or coming apart at the seams, sounds more like a knee jerk reaction to the characters actions rather than an honest assesment of the man himself...

[Neil]

Shane is breaking, but he's breaking out of the shackles that aren't necessarily applicable in the new world order!

[MinionZombie]

I see Shane as a character who is done/nearly done evil things for selfish/psychotic reasons, and who has done evil things for the right reasons. In the extreme harsh reality of the situation, sacrificing Otis did save both him and most importantly Carl, and if he hadn't all three would have died. On the other hand, that action has taken away a piece of his soul and a piece of his conscience that I don't think he'll ever get back. That harsh practicality fed into him flipping his lid at the end of 2x07 - the lesson he was teaching Herschel was right, but the method was wrong, but then again sometimes you need a bulldozer to knock down a wall - and that harsh practicality was challenged when he saw 'Zophia', who was the very embodiment of his harsh words and thinking. His reaction spoke a lot about his inner being at that point - he saw the reality of his own words, and you saw the humanity return to his face (and in turn Rick's belief system and dedication to a cause - that of Sophia - was completely challenged and forced him to be the only one to put the poor girl down). Shane's attempted rape of Lori in 1x06 - now that's a strange one - he was coveting his best friend's wife, he didn't inform her that he was still alive in the hospital (a convenient white lie), and he folded to temptation to get what he wanted (Lori) ... then he's very clearly rejected by Lori, and he gets all in a state and does something very foolish, stopping just short of crossing the line entirely. The breaking point in Shane is coming. It hasn't arrived yet, but it will soon - perhaps by the end of the season (something big must surely be coming after the sucker punch in 2x07) - and so we're witnessing this internal struggle. He isn't the evil one ... yet ... but he's done numerous things for selfish reasons, and bad things for right reasons, or right things in the wrong way. His moral code is much more confused than that of Rick - who is doggedly sticking to an old world ideology, which is both a help and a hindrance. Rick is trying to keep an important part of them alive, while Shane doesn't realise that in all his fighting for survival he's losing everything that's worth fighting for in the first place. In a way his reaction is somewhat animalistic - meaning is becoming absent, and it's turning into pure instinct ... ... pure motorised instinct, if you will. In summary - it's wrong to out-right condemn him, but it's equally wrong to out-right support him. Out of Rick and Shane though - who would I pledge allegiance to in that situation? Rick, most definitely, but this is also from a position of knowing the full facts of what Shane has done, and sitting quite comfortably in front of a computer.

[krisvds]

Well put. Shane is going to crack. I myself would side with Andrea.

[Andy]

Out of Rick and Shane though - who would I pledge allegiance to in that situation? Rick, most definitely, but this is also from a position of knowing the full facts of what Shane has done, and sitting quite comfortably in front of a computer. Interesting point there and i think thay would make a great topic by itself. Given the same choice i would pledge allegiance to Shane. I honestly beleive Rick would get me killed.

[AcesandEights]

Given the same choice i would pledge allegiance to Shane. I honestly believe Rick would get me killed. Nah, Rick would get killed for you and Shane would be more likely to kill you. That said, we need a well thought out, but not overly complex poll about Shane or possibly Shane vs. Rick as a leader.

[Legion2213]

Nah, Rick would get killed for you and Shane would be more likely to kill you. That said, we need a well thought out, but not overly complex poll about Shane or possibly Shane vs. Rick as a leader. This. If you were in a bad situation, Rick would go balls out to save you, Shane would discard you like yesterdays chip wrappers. Shane with power over the group = Captain Rhodes.