TWD 2x09 "Triggerfinger" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[erisi236]

Herschel should have popped the guy on the fence, it would have made his transformation complete. Or maybe his "rebirth", we don't know much about his past, maybe he was a drinker all those years because he killed one too many men in some war and later put down the bottle and his iron to live the simple life. He said he knew how to shoot and certainly looked like he knew what he was doing. And is it just me or is it funny how much a bunch of hypocrites Rick and Co. are? They ramble on to Herschel's farm, and earlier Jenner's lab begging to be let in and the second someone else comes into their lives asking the same they tell them to bugger off, it's hilarious.

[AcesandEights]

And is it just me or is it funny how much a bunch of hypocrites Rick and Co. are? They ramble on to Herschel's farm, and earlier Jenner's lab begging to be let in and the second someone else comes into their lives asking the same they tell them to bugger off, it's hilarious. I took that turn of events in the bar as more of an understandable escalation with Rick & Co. not wanting to show their hand and being understandably cautious and the two men pushing and escalating matters to a breaking point. There's a distinct difference to me, anyway. Those two strangers "Shaned it" and paid the price

[Wyldwraith]

Hypocrisy is a core modus operandi for this squad, When the well-liked (by the audience) characters do something immoral it's perfectly understandable, but even an episode or two later if someone besides Rick/Dale does something underhanded/immoral it's a high crime. It's UNDOUBTEDLY an intended design feature, because episode after episode harps on that hypocrisy that the group somehow continues to fail to see from situation to situation. It's like a 4th-Wall Breach, and the writers are inviting our perception(s) of the dirty deeds done into the story with a wink and a nod. Until recently, I couldn't understand how someone could so passionately hate a core member of TWD crew as many hate Shane, but over the last couple episodes of the first 1/2 of the season and the first couple episodes of this 2nd half of Season Two my dislike of Dale has grown into a manic hatred. The actor that portrays him has amazing chops, because he INTIMATELY understands (seemingly intuitively) the ins and outs of portraying a two-faced hypocrite and heartless manipulator. It can't be unintentional, because no one makes a character so much fun to hate without a lot of forethought and introspection about what it must be like to see the world through the twisted lens of an old man whose perspective demands he be the one pulling the strings of others while (perceivably) keeping his hands spotlessly clean so he can continue to hide behind the mask of Kindly Old Grandpa. It's really a shame they're writing Shane to be the big in-group antagonist, because Dale has tons more meat on his bones as a great villain.

[AcesandEights]

I don't know, Wyld, I find everyone brings their personal baggage to the table in these sorts of character evaluations.

[erisi236]

Lori and Dale are both probably Imps like Leland Gaunt from Needful Things. They both sit back and push buttons just waiting for an explosion safe in the knowledge that they themselves will be safe.

[AcesandEights]

I don't know, Wyld, I find everyone brings their personal baggage to the table in these sorts of character evaluations. Lori and Dale are both probably Imps like Leland Gaunt from Needful Things. They both sit back and push buttons just waiting for an explosion safe in the knowledge that they themselves will be safe. Are you suggesting the attempt to get Rick and the subsequent car accident was an elaborate ruse or ploy of some sort? Okay, you're talking about the bit towards the end. The 'MacBeth' angle towards the end though is an...interesting...choice for them to go with, if a bit hackneyed, though I think it's a pretty realistic way for the character to react considering the circumstance she finds herself in.

[erisi236]

Are you suggesting the attempt to get Rick and the subsequent car accident was an elaborate ruse or ploy of some sort? It's possible. Lori had no Earthly reason to go after Rick and Glen, none. And who else would ever go after her but Shane? So Shane ends up saving her from a situation she put herself in for the 48th time, and yet again she makes it out to be that he's the bad guy, and then poisons the well even more with Rick. Lori is evil incarnate.

[AcesandEights]

Lori is evil incarnate. Not even Shane is evil incarnate

[bassman]

Not even Shane is evil incarnate I'm often shocked how people here and elsewhere are so quick to label these characters as either good or bad as if there is no middle ground. Even Shane has a few redeeming qualities. As for Lori, I think she gets much more hate than she deserves. She may not always make the best decisions(none of these characters ever do, btw. Get used to that, folks), but she's ultimately always trying to do right by her son and husband. Don't get me started on the whole "whore" and "slut" thing from last season... Something I really loved about last night's episode, the scene where Rick mentions that Hershel missed taget practice, I love Hershel's answer of "I know how to shoot....I just don't like to." That felt like such a classic western line from the guy that was once bad, turned good, and now is called back to his old ways. I'm not saying they're implying Hershel's good with a gun for bad purposes, but it kinda had that western feeling to it. Anyone else get that feeling?

[sandrock74]

Those two strangers "Shaned it" and paid the price Shaned it! HA! I'm gonna start using that in my everyday vocabulary. I love it!

[Eyebiter]

Instead of calling to the searchers, the three of them should have quietly exited the bar through the door to the alley. The guys outside were calling to their friends and shining flashlights so it would have been easy enough to avoid them and slip away. Instead Rick tries to "negotiate" and nearly gets all three of them killed. Bad enough they have a wounded enemy sniper with a bum leg to contend with. By letting the guy in the truck escape there are now an unknown number of humans after them with revenge in mind. Will be very interesting to see next week if the prisoner gets immediate medical attention, they withhold treatment until the kid talks, or Shane decides to put him down ASAP. Either way the group break up foreshadowed in 2x07 will soon occur.

[Thorn]

I don't know, Wyld, I find everyone brings their personal baggage to the table in these sorts of character evaluations. This is very true, and it is unavoidable in most cases I think but you see it time and time again. More than anything else your own pre-dispositions to a certain path are what cause you to side with and identify with a character or person. My friend Gene at work is most certainly a supporter of Shane, he admits freely the guy is insane, and a manipulator, that he is selfish, and that he would kill his own group in a second... but he feels strongly that if the crap hit the fan he wants him in the front lines with him. I can say "yeah until he shoots you in the back to save himself" as much as I like, he still feels he wants Shane around more than Rick and he even admits freely Rick is a better man he just feels he is too nice of a guy. To lead effectively, and he could never take a back seat in his opinion so HE (Gene) could lead if he kept Shane around who is clearly able to follow to some extent (at least seemingly according to how he stepped aside for Rick). Where as I as I have said countless times would rather get rid of Shane and keep Rick. As to Wyd's point about the group being hypocrites for not letting dangerous people with a clear agenda and forceful uncompromising manner into their group despite OBVIOUS dialogue that implied they were the wrong people to let into your circle/group is kind of crazy. They basically admit to being horn dogs looking for poon and booze. These guys have ladies back at the camp and strangers with clearly unsavory motives. In the case of our group they came to people looking for help and at no point presented themselves as scumbags looking to rape, rob, drink, force, and hump their way through the apocalypse. When Rick realized there was no threat from one of them he put himself and his group in harms way to save the kid. This to me shows this argument to be invalid, this is even AFTER he knows this group to be a threat. When it is armed guys with clearly poor character, armed and talking all kinds of foulness you don't give them the keys to the kingdom. "Oh you won't take no for an answer, admit to doing foul unspeakable things, and being horny and looking to get laid... please come to our safe little farm we are guests at and rape our women... ps bring lots of other guys with guns with the same mindset because this would be awesome for us".

[Wyldwraith]

About Lori: The only thing that really gets me about Lori is that she makes mistakes, but then when circumstances change she wants to flip-flop and back away from what she now sees as a mistake and leave others to pay the price. Shane wasn't holding Lori hostage and using her as a sex slave while Rick was in a coma. He didn't even put matters as your average jerk of a teenager at a local makeout spot might to his date. (Ie: "Put out, or Get out!") Lori reciprocated Shane's interest in her wholeheartedly. To the point that when Shane laid eyes on Rick's ring and the locket with the family picture in it that she was wearing, Lori quickly and unhesitatingly takes it/them from around her neck and lays them in the dirt while she gets it on w/ Shane like a couple of horny teenagers. Whatever possible motivations on Lori's part for becoming involved with Shane, Shane was right in saying this last episode that it WAS REAL. Lori wasn't just laying back and thinking of England to secure a protector for herself and Carl. The easy, even relaxed way that she smiled and kidded around with Shane and Carl was the very picture of a viable family unit forming. Then Rick comes back and Lori instantly demands that Shane bear all the burden for her "mistake" and even goes so far as to try and prevent Shane from interacting with Carl as both Shane and Carl had become accustomed to. According to Lori, Shane's supposed to assume 100% of the responsibility for what happened, and even fill the role of Villain for her so she can walk away from the situation guilt-free. Love the Lori character or hate her, but you MUST ADMIT that she's done NOTHING to make it easier for Shane to do what she wants him to do. Instead, high up on her cross, Lori looks down on the man who's saved her life and her son's life at LEAST 4 times! Just recriminations about "lying to her about Rick." (Whereas Shane genuinely couldn't detect either pulse or respiration by the comatose Rick, and with the sudden power failure and the chaos engulfing the hospital Shane had no access to either working medical devices or anyone medically trained.) Lori flat-out IGNORES Shane each time he's repeatedly stated his reasoning for acting as he had, and making the decisions he made. Why? Because she has no counter-argument to practical statements such as "I thought he was DEAD Lori! What was I supposed to do, wheel his bed IVs and all out of a hospital filled with soldiers shooting every living person in a hospital bed, while avoiding the Walkers AND get you and Carl somewhere safe!" Lori even admits she wouldn't have left if there was the slightest chance Rick was still alive. She KNOWS that Shane really believes he did what he thought Rick would've wanted Shane to do under the circumstances, but none of that matters to her. I just don't see any reasonable way to justify Lori's actions in doing her utmost to goad Rick into KILLING SHANE. 1) Lori was perfectly happy to use Shane for hers and Carl's benefit for quite some time. Even though that meant that Shane would be putting himself in grave danger of suffering a truly terrible death. 2) Lori has completely disregarded everything Shane did to keep the group of survivors organized and pulling together for the common good LONG BEFORE Rick showed up. Just as she disregards all the times that Shane saved hers and Carl's lives, even AFTER she'd brutally rejected him and declared he was nothing to her and needed to stay away from her family. 3) Lori wants the benefit of Shane making tough calls and doing dirty jobs to keep her and/or Carl safe, but she insists upon the right to demonize Shane even as she avails herself of his assistance and protection. 4) Finally, after all this, Lori is pushing Rick to KILL Shane! Well isn't that a neat and tidy way of once again letting the big strong man clean up her mess while she walks away smelling like a rose? If that isn't ingratitude, epically self-serving, manipulative, morally irresponsible and even EVIL, I have no idea what these words mean. My hat's off to the actress that portrays Lori, just as I doff my cap to the men portraying Dale and Shane. All three of them are great acting talents, with a keen understanding of depicting the moral failings their characters have fallen prey to. Lastly, I think (though I may well change my opinion as time and more episodes go by) that it might do the show its greatest service if they deviated SHARPLY from the long-term roster from the comics. I would be fascinated to watch this group of personalities struggle with the fallout of, Rick's sudden and violent death, for example. Maybe it's because I have no experience with the comics, but to me Rick isn't nearly as interesting as Shane, and has done nothing to merit being the leader of the group. All he does is make bad decisions for moral reasons and get people killed. The story would be infinitely less appealing to me if Rick loses the main challenger to his "throne." Edit to Thorn: You seem to have COMPLETELY misapplied my point. Nothing I said had ANYTHING TO DO WITH the raiders Rick and Co. (rightfully) gunned down. My comments about the group's hypocrisy were directed towards how Lori demonizes Shane while she enjoys the benefits of his actions, how Dale lies and manipulates to achieve his desired end but crucifies Shane for doing likewise, and how the group as a whole can be stating one day earlier en masse that one Shane did at the barn was necessary/justified, but one DAY later in TWD-chronology they're using the SAME EVENT (the barn) as rationale for labeling Shane everything from loose cannon, to danger to the group, to murderer. Bottom line, I was speaking of in-group interactions. NOT the raiders who got what they deserved (other than the trademark Rick-mess of a bad decision for "moral" reasons in bringing the raider-teen back with them.)

[erisi236]

Out of everything, the one thing that really grinds my gears about Lori is how many times she yo-yo'd Shane on how to act around Carl. Kind of hard to play the game when you change the rules every five minutes ya bitch, heh.

[Thorn]

re: Last edited by Wyldwraith; 2 Hours Ago at 04:22 PM. Reason: Correcting Thorn Being Wrong-Nth Clever edit title, I was sure in this thread it was mentioned specifically that Rick and crew went looking for help at Hershel's farm and the CDC and yet would not return the same kindness to the group in the bar from Philly, that was what I was addressing not sure where I read that but if I somehow imagined it or misapplied it to you that is on me. Generally though I am pretty good about not hallucinating things so not sure where that post is. "My bad".