TWD 2x10 "18 Miles Out" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Thorn]

...or did he just realise he couldn't take the creatures on without 1 ton of metal wrapped around him? ie: He had to retreat to save him! Also this. And you are right I just wanted to say "Otis-Slayer" it sounds like a cool name you would slap on a fantasy night... but with Otis instead of dragon or king... totally tongue in cheek.

[AcesandEights]

As much as I think Shane is losing it, Otis isn't an example IMHO. It was both of them, or one of them... Nah, maybe that's what the writers or director wanted to get through, but if so I thought they did a poor job. If they were in such desperate straits they should have both been set upon and devoured while rolling around on the ground for all that time.

[babomb]

...or did he just realise he couldn't take the creatures on without 1 ton of metal wrapped around him? ie: He had to retreat to save him! This is what I think happened too. But it should be stated that I also identify and empathize more with Shane than Rick. And I agree with pretty much all of Wylds assessment of the situation. I think what Andrea said to Lori was spot on. That is the man I want leading me and having my back. Not the Otis slayer. Funny you should mention that. Since the man you want leading and having your back proclaimed that he supports the decision to slay Otis. Not only that, he believes he would've done the same thing, AND has a problem with the fact that Shane doesn't think he would've. This is a major development IMO regarding the Otis controversy. I'm sure it will be glossed over by everyone who's against Shane and all about Rick. But glossing it over doesn't change the facts of the matter. I realize that Rick wasn't there, and therefore wasn't the one that killed Otis. But he didn't bat an eye when Shane told him that he capped him in the leg. He went on to assure Shane that he's capable of making those types of decisions, and got upset when Shane thought otherwise. He never once chastised Shane over the killing of Otis, he moved directly from that into the affair between Shane and Lori. What did Rick do after Shane threw the wrench at his head? He gave him his gun back. Rick is coming around to Shane's hard-edged style of decision making. I'm not saying that Rick is gonna become Shane. Just that Rick isn't as altruistic and not so opposed to Shane's ways as many here would like to think. It should also be noted that Rick started that fight between him and Shane, and only because Shane said he didn't think he was capable of protecting his family.

[AcesandEights]

Just that Rick isn't as altruistic and not so opposed to Shane's ways as many here would like to think. I think you're overlooking character and plot progression. As someone who reads the comics, assuming the Rick of tvland goes a similar direction, I can tell you...   I would never hang my hat on Rick keeping his hands clean as his character progresses. And I think this is normal for most of the characters given a long enough timeline and rocky enough road For me it's never been about Shane being a villain, so much as it being his default strategy when a problem comes along to impose his will through the threat, or implied threat of force. It's one thing to be driven to commit questionable acts, but another to stumble into them over and over again and even embrace them sometimes.

[babomb]

I think you're overlooking character and plot progression. As someone who reads the comics, assuming the Rick of tvland goes a similar direction, I can tell you... I totally agree with that. But for the sake of those who don't read the comic I try to keep my points and comments based only on what we know from the show. The world they're in pretty much dictates that Rick will at least partially succumb to the "dark side", if you will. It's inevitable. Especially if the writers want to keep things realistic. In Shane's words, "you can't just be the good guy and expect to live", which Rick responds "I'm not the good guy anymore". IMO, this is all about character and plot progression. My comment about it was in regard to those folks who side with Rick, so to speak, because they see him as the good guy and Shane as the villain. Personally, I don't see it as black and white as Rick=the hero and Shane=the villain. I want Rick to put a cap in Randalls head though. Not Shane. Rick! Although it would be OK if Shane had to be the one to do it again. Because IMO, Randall has to die! So it's either feed him to the walkers or man up and do what has to be done for the group. I just want Rick to be the 1 to do it cuz I'm sick of the good guy routine. The idea of who would be the better leader out of the 2 is a non-issue IMO because looking to someone else to be the leader is a terrible idea in any situation, let alone in a zombie apoc. And I don't think that leadership is in any way an important thing to Shane. Which IMO is a more realistic situation than some dude who feels he has to make the right decisions all the time because of some sense of duty as the leader of the group.

[Thorn]

This is what I think happened too. But it should be stated that I also identify and empathize more with Shane than Rick. And I agree with pretty much all of Wylds assessment of the situation. I think what Andrea said to Lori was spot on. Funny you should mention that. Since the man you want leading and having your back proclaimed that he supports the decision to slay Otis. Not only that, he believes he would've done the same thing, AND has a problem with the fact that Shane doesn't think he would've. This is a major development IMO regarding the Otis controversy. I'm sure it will be glossed over by everyone who's against Shane and all about Rick. But glossing it over doesn't change the facts of the matter. I realize that Rick wasn't there, and therefore wasn't the one that killed Otis. But he didn't bat an eye when Shane told him that he capped him in the leg. He went on to assure Shane that he's capable of making those types of decisions, and got upset when Shane thought otherwise. He never once chastised Shane over the killing of Otis, he moved directly from that into the affair between Shane and Lori. What did Rick do after Shane threw the wrench at his head? He gave him his gun back. Rick is coming around to Shane's hard-edged style of decision making. I'm not saying that Rick is gonna become Shane. Just that Rick isn't as altruistic and not so opposed to Shane's ways as many here would like to think. It should also be noted that Rick started that fight between him and Shane, and only because Shane said he didn't think he was capable of protecting his family. Someone calls me out as it pertains to protecting my family and says they can do a better job he better be ready to throw down I have said before at least as it pertains to the comics Rick is all about protecting his family and even admits he does it to a fault and doesn't consider the group as much as he should, he is not perfect and no man is. My thing is just that if I have to pick I pick Rick, despite him saying he would have done the same... I don't think he could or would. Great point though.

[krisvds]

In a world where the dead are returning to life the word humanity loses much of its meaning. The slow loss of humanity is at the heart of the series and perhaps key to its succes. We do seem to talk more about characters and their motivations than actual gore/FX etc. As much as I sympathise with Rick, being a father myself, his 'deconstruction' and Shane's (written with almost sadistic glee by the writing team) is pretty entertaining. I must also say that I think they have stretched the love triangle ting long enough now. It's pretty obvious , even to someone who hasn't read the comics (like my wife) that the Rick vs Shane storyline will end in violence. The build up is just too obvious. Kirkman may enjoy his toying with comic fans expectations but at this point they are just stretching it. I really hope the resolve comes this season... BTW If it's true Darabont had no hand in the episodes of the second part of this season, judging by the quality of the three already aired, I must say I believe the show is in capable hands. Might be part of the plan all along for all I know, but they really seem to have upped the 'dread' and suspense. Pretty detrimental in a zombie show. Good work Mazzara.

[SRP76]

Alright, I'll just say a couple things: 1. Dead by any means results in zombie. You don't need Jenner, you don't need Shane and Rick philosophizing until their heads explode. You just need eyes and common sense. We've seen zombies - clearly not bitten - flopping in cars. Real simple. If you had to be bitten or scratched to become a zombie, how would the first one have been born? Wouldn't be possible. So it's no real mystery. 2. Rick didn't "endanger" anybody. There are so many holes in that argument it's absurd. What, he's not supposed to shoot the ghouls to clear himself a path in Atlanta as Glenn suggested he do?! What, it's Rick's fault that Shane and the others at camp decided that instead of posting guards, they should sit around and have a campfire circle-jerk? It's ridiculous. 3. Shane shot Otis to save his own ass. Simple as that. Not to "save" a damn person but himself. Why? Because he's a save-ass prick, as a good villain should be. 4. Lori suggested Rick deal with Shane because she's SCARED of him. Duh. What woman DOESN'T try to get her old man to act when some possessive, obsessed, Otis-murdering ex-boyfriend won't back the fuck off?! Where's the common sense around here? 5. Maggie blows off Pops to head right to the dude that's only boned her like twice. Proves that Glenn wasn't just a pizza guy, he was a porn stud on the side. Either that, or she's never had a proper pipelaying. 6. T-Dogg should just kill himself; it's the only way he'll get any screen time. 7. What does Daryl do if he finds a zombie that doesn't still have its ears? 8. It's time for Carrol to get eaten. Without a husband to beat her or a daughter around, there's just no more need for her on the show. 9. CAN WE GET OFF THE FARM YET?! 10. If this "evil group" has survived all the way from Philly, what in hell do they want with Herschel's farm? They have already passed a billion of them by this point, and are obviously able to get along just fine.

[Wyldwraith]

To retort @SRP76: 1) Obviously dead by any means does not ALWAYS = Zombie, or Carl would be zombie chow for reaching past a corpse with no wounds for a Bundle O' Knives. This is something they REALLY NEED to get CONSISTENT ABOUT. 2) Again, obviously the Survivors (especially Andrea) believed Rick endangered them. When a 3rd party has to talk an angry chick with a gun into not putting a new orifice in your face, you done screwed the pooch. As for the Camp Massacre Issue: RICK TOOK ALL THE BEST COMBATANTS! It's NOT foreseeable that if something dangerous happened back at the camp, the group would be LESS EQUIPPED to deal with it than when Daryl, Rick, Glenn and T-Dog aren't there? Really? C'mon now. Yes the group should've been posting sentinels, but conversely they're accustomed to having literally 3x as many big healthy men to help defend the old/weak/frail around the camp. 3) Shane brought the medical supplies back. Weight I am POSITIVE his injured knee/leg would've been happier had he dumped it and continued on. He didn't, so Shane gets credit for Carl's continued survival. 4) Lori is suggesting Rick KILL SHANE because she no longer NEEDS HIM. Proof? Tell me HONESTLY that, pregnant and all, had Glenn and Herschel returned to inform them Raiders shot and killed Rick that Lori WOULDN'T cozy right back up to Shane. Shane is expendable because Lori has an easier-to-manipulate male defender who's comparably effective gunplay-wise with her previous protector. More proof? Lori suddenly drops from what Herschel determines hours later was some sort of brain-bleed. Do Rick and Shane continue their march towards mutually assured destruction, or do they mend fences? 5) Agreed. Cold Maggie, just..cold. 6) Agreed, furthermore I recommend T-Dog hang himself inside a well, below the waterline so we get another cool bloated floater-walker to split in half and dump gallons of putrescent viscera back down the well. Only way T-Dog's death would be a memorable event as opposed to triggering a massive "FINALLY" reaction from the viewer base. 7) Umm, he whittles himself some lodge-poles and begins scalping/displaying his splayed collection of rotting scalps from said poles? 8) Agreed. Further, the scriptwriters completely dropped the ball here. They had a PERFECT opening to dispose of Carrol. Just have her squirm out of Daryl's grasp and wrap her arms around Zophia as her dead little girl takes a big bite of McMomwich. 9) GOD YES. If it takes an air-strike from a rogue military unit I am BEYOND READY to be done with Redneck Zombie 90210 and get back to TWD. 10) Exactly. What does a group of healthy, armed young men no doubt accustomed to just grabbing whatever they want by now want with a farm that only has 3 @ 1/2 women worth of sex slaves? (Carrol + Lori = the 1/2) These "raiders" are demonstrating all the keen perceptiveness of the Dawn-raiders. Hell, if you can shrug off losing 5 men and associated firearms/ammo, you've ALREADY got vastly more than Rick & Co.

[shootemindehead]

Nah, maybe that's what the writers or director wanted to get through, but if so I thought they did a poor job. If they were in such desperate straits they should have both been set upon and devoured while rolling around on the ground for all that time. Agreed. I still think that there was a considerable amount of time between the decision to to hobble Otis and the zombie dinner. It seemed that Shane took the decision very early.

[MinionZombie]

Another episode, another dose of the awesome. 1) Excellent show for zombie action - KNB did a kick arse job, especially the head crushed under the car tyre, the three-zombie pile-up on Rick (the highlight of the episode for me), and the various knives-to-heads (a nice little reference/pick up from volume 3 or 4 of the trade paperbacks). 2) Excellent show for balancing too - we got great action, but we also got some deep emotional/theological stuff, addressing the issue of suicide and abandonment of hope in a zombie apocalypse world. It was interesting to see the wrestling between Maggie and Andrea over the girl (her name escapes me right now), and how Andrea is 'going a bit Shane' in her approach to a situation ... you can kind of see what she meant and was trying to do, but equally the girl isn't her sister and this isn't her home ... a line was indeed crossed there. 3) The Rick/Shane bro-down was great. Clearly Rick has been pondering Shane's actions for some time now - it was interesting to see the Gimple & Mazarra show the difference between the two men's ideas of strength and weakness, and indeed further show Rick's dark side that's coming out. As always, I remain in the Rick camp - I'd follow Rick, but I wouldn't follow Shane - clearly Rick can do what's necessary (2x08) in extreme circumstances, but he's also not going to let his humanity slip either (dealing with this kid). 4) Speaking of which, this kid is a bit of a strange one - the way he was taunting the zombie that tried to attack him, and how he was pleading with them when being left, shows him to be a bit of an untrustworthy character. He's been hanging out with that gang who'll happily leave him when he's inconvenient, and you wonder if their approach has rubbed off on him. Interesting ... I'd definitely be keeping an eye on Randall, that's for sure. 5) The issue of infection - I too noticed the mistake with Shane's knife when he cut himself in the bus ... it's interesting that they've raised the issue of infection, but clearly you can't go all 'Contagion' with it as that would be no fun at all. In order to take down a zombie you'd have to have a kevlar hazmat suit on or something. Where's the fun in that in the long run? So you've got to have an amount of suspended belief on the issue ... sometimes I do wonder about blood going into someone's mouth or something, but then even getting it on your skin is a risk in 'real life', but there has to be some kind of balancing (indeed when you're spraying practical blood around on set, you can't be sure you won't get some in an actor's mouth) ... so, hmmm ... and interesting one. 6) I liked how this episode is a week after the previous episode - up until now it's pretty much been 1 day for each episode. 7) I also liked how we stuck to just two main pockets of characters in the two parallel stories. Rick/Shane/Randall, and then Maggie/Lori/Andrea/girl whose name I've forgotten. A third spiffing episode in a row - clearly Mazarra has more than stepped up to the plate in Darabont's hands-on absence. I'm enjoying the increased scale of the look of the show, a touch more zombie action to balance the overall pacing, the quality of the themes at play hasn't dropped, the gore quotient hasn't dropped either (if anything it's gone up), so yeah - Mazarra's doing a great job. Can't wait to see the last three episodes of the season. Now I'm going to go have a look at The Talking Dead for this episode...

[Tricky]

Again really good episode, totally enjoyed it! I'd follow Rick, but I do feel sorry for Shane, he clearly wasnt a bad guy before the outbreak & its whats happened since thats turned him semi feral, as well as an unhealthy obsession with Lori - I've seen this kind of thing in real life though, not to those extremes but we all know somebody who just cant let go when they get dumped and they end up causing a scene - but he's obviously hurting and feeling alone which any person would and I can empathise with that (doesnt excuse Otis or trying to molest Lori), but its his way of dealing with those emotions that will be his undoing. The zombies coming out of the building were creepy after the wrench went through the window, do zombies sleep or just lay there motionless until disturbed? creepy either way! I definitely dont trust Randall, there is an unhealthy cruel streak in him judging by the way he dealt with that zombie, and I wouldnt want him around

[bassman]

The zombies coming out of the building were creepy after the wrench went through the window, do zombies sleep or just lay there motionless until disturbed? creepy either way! I think they're just kinda lounging around when they're not in a herd or there's no food around. If you remember, when Rick rode into Atlanta in the first episode, there were walkers just sitting inside the busses.

[paranoid101]

Great episode Me and my lass both agree if the shoe was on the other foot and Rick was trapped on the bus, Shane would have left his ass to die. Also showed how Rick is the bigger and more thoughtful man even after all that happened between Shane and Rick in that episode, Rick is still willing to give Shane a chance at redemption.   Also saw a sneak peek at next week episode at the end of the UK show and It showed Shane and Andrea talking about how Rick has to go, so even after Rick giving Shane a Chance to come back from bat shirt crazy world, Shane still wants rid of Rick

[AcesandEights]

Now I'm going to go have a look at The Talking Dead for this episode... It was an okay episode of Talking Dead, but I actually felt myself feeling bad for the kid who plays Randall, who clearly was not comfortable in the free-form format. Also, gotta say, I did love the 'zombie waterfall', as they referred to on TTD. It was handled perfectly!