TWD 2x10 "18 Miles Out" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[krisvds]

Another episode, another dose of the awesome. 2) Excellent show for balancing too - we got great action, but we also got some deep emotional/theological stuff, addressing the issue of suicide and abandonment of hope in a zombie apocalypse world. It was interesting to see the wrestling between Maggie and Andrea over the girl (her name escapes me right now), and how Andrea is 'going a bit Shane' in her approach to a situation ... you can kind of see what she meant and was trying to do, but equally the girl isn't her sister and this isn't her home ... a line was indeed crossed there. 3) The Rick/Shane bro-down was great. Clearly Rick has been pondering Shane's actions for some time now - it was interesting to see the Gimple & Mazarra show the difference between the two men's ideas of strength and weakness, and indeed further show Rick's dark side that's coming out. As always, I remain in the Rick camp - I'd follow Rick, but I wouldn't follow Shane - clearly Rick can do what's necessary (2x08) in extreme circumstances, but he's also not going to let his humanity slip either (dealing with this kid). Balancing: agreed. A great episode that shows you can have the best of both worlds; emotional character driven stuff and creepy zombie action. These past few episodes I felt are among the best this season. What makes Shane such a great villain to me is his humanity. Just like Tricky pointed out: the getting dumped/causing a scene part is what most can relate to. Sorry sod. If he'd just be the mad rapist/killer he wouldn't be half as cool. Right, just bought me trade paperbacks 11 & 12. Hurray!

[Wyldwraith]

Rick only has himself to blame, If you escalate a long-brewing confrontation into violence, and then leave the one you're in said conflict with the impression you were a hair from leaving them to die, you should EXPECT them to solidify a desire/intent to do unto you before you do unto them. Rick's ultimatum-speech about following his lead/respecting his decisions destroyed any possible goodwill created by coming back for Shane. It's a do-or-do-not kind of situation. Either you man up and leave them to die when the opportunity presents itself or you never do anything like that in the first place. Put another way, if there was even the POSSIBILITY that next time you need to rely on Person X they really will have left you to die...and that possibility is preying on your mind because of a previous situation where it SEEMED they left you, but at the last minute changed their mind...what exactly makes it unreasonable to do whatever's necessary to prevent that from happening? The really cool thing about that "Did Rick or Didn't He" situation is it takes the themes of eroded trust between the two characters and brings it to a head. Now the other shoe has to drop, somehow, someway. At the same time, it revisits the glaringly unasked question as to how Rick just sort of stepped past Shane into primary leadership. Ironically, though it's necessary for Rick to become much more like Shane if he intends to keep these people alive, the more he becomes like Shane the less moral authority he retains in his neverending ideological conflicts with Shane. Which is fascinating...if not surreal, to watch. It was completely wild hearing Rick and Shane essentially arguing over whether or not Rick has the stones to act as cold-bloodedly as Shane. Hearing Rick pissed off because Shane was stating his skepticism that Rick could've kneecapped Otis and left him for zombie chow was some through the looking glass kinda stuff.

[AcesandEights]

The really cool thing about that "Did Rick or Didn't He" situation is it takes the themes of eroded trust between the two characters and brings it to a head. Now the other shoe has to drop, somehow, someway. Agreed. This last episode simultaneously allowed several stressors and underwraps issues to blow up while consequently ratcheting up the pressure, as well as the stakes, for future confrontations.

[MinionZombie]

It was an okay episode of Talking Dead, but I actually felt myself feeling bad for the kid who plays Randall, who clearly was not comfortable in the free-form format. Also, gotta say, I did love the 'zombie waterfall', as they referred to on TTD. It was handled perfectly! hehe, I loved that it was referred to by the crew as the "zombie waterfall". I enjoyed Kevin Smith on the show, but yeah I saw that the young guy was a bit nervous on the air. Good points from Scott Wilson too. Balancing: agreed. A great episode that shows you can have the best of both worlds; emotional character driven stuff and creepy zombie action. These past few episodes I felt are among the best this season. What makes Shane such a great villain to me is his humanity. Just like Tricky pointed out: the getting dumped/causing a scene part is what most can relate to. Sorry sod. If he'd just be the mad rapist/killer he wouldn't be half as cool. Right, just bought me trade paperbacks 11 & 12. Hurray! I must get myself some more TWD trade paperbacks (I have done the first ten so far, so I must get going on them again! Totally agreed on the Shane front with you and Tricky - there is a richly flawed human beneath Shane's cold exterior. I loved the bit where he was trapped in the bus and Rick seemingly ran off with Randall - as Kevin Smith pointed out, seeing the two dead police officers again was a nice touch - and it was a rich scene in that you can read it a few ways. Rick's giving Shane a dose of his own medicine - something to think about - maybe Rick really was going to leave Shane, or maybe he was always going to come back for him ... plus on Shane's end there's that "oh shit" moment where he is the one on the shit end of the stick, only for the relief to kick in when Rick comes back, heroically (and awesomely) riding the car like a horse and firing off rounds so Shane can be saved. Indeed, Shane now owes Rick his life (perhaps this was part of a re-balancing plan from Rick, or maybe it just came together that way), and I loved the final sequence when they're driving back to the farm and Shane's got all this going on in his head and he sees that zombie in the field again (was it just me, or was Shane's position and the angle on the field, exactly the same driving both ways? ). I loved the zombie in the field - again, you can take it a few ways - there's the loneliness of the zombie itself, and Shane sees that in himself, but there's also the dogged determination of this creature that just keeps on plodding along. It was in the field when they were on the way to that rescue station (I'm assuming that's what it was), Rick and Shane go through a hell of a lot of craziness, and then on the way back - there's that zombie again, still plodding through the field (but without getting all that far). All that craziness went on, and it's meaningless to the zombie, which is also so dogged in its continued existence. As they pointed out on TTD by Scott Wilson, the scene between Lori and Andrea was really good - each time one of them speaks, they both have valid arguments. They've all lost a hell of a lot, and yet indeed Lori still has her husband, her child, and now she's got a new kid on the way (although in this world, a new baby on the way is as much a curse as it is a blessing), so that was interesting ... I will side with Andrea on her position in the camp. She's a crack shot, so damn straight she should be on watch - although she was over-keen to prove herself and damn near killed our beloved super ninja Daryl. However Lori is damned right also in that this farm is a blessing in itself. Some bad has come of it, but it's also an isolated farm house where you can capture at least a piece of the life you once had ... but that's a curse to some and a blessing to others. Finally - back to the zombie in the field - I absolutely loved that they used "Civilian" by Wye Oak as the soundtrack. It was used in the season two debut trailer, and I've been listening to it ever since - in fact it's playing right now as I type this - it kicks arse, and it worked really well here. They had a similar moment in 2x08 when they started burning the zombie piles, and it's a cool way to close an episode to let some themes and images sink in for further contemplation. Indeed, looking at the lyrics to "Civilian" by Wye Oak, you can totally see why they picked it: I am nothing without pretend I know my faults can't live with them I am nothing without a man I know my thoughts but I can't hide them I still keep my baby teeth in the bedside table with my jewelry you still sleep in the bed with me, my jewelry, and my baby teeth I don't need another friend When most of them I can barely keep up with them perfectly able to hold my own hand, but I still can't kiss my own neck. I wanted to give you everything but I still stand in awe of superficial things I wanted to love you like my mother's mother's mothers did civilian civilian

[AnxietyDilemma]

Another episode, another dose of the awesome. As always, I remain in the Rick camp - I'd follow Rick, but I wouldn't follow Shane - clearly Rick can do what's necessary (2x08) in extreme circumstances, but he's also not going to let his humanity slip either (dealing with this kid). This is exactly how I feel, Shane cares about the group as a whole, but Rick cares about each individual. It's easy to say "let's do what's best for the group" when you are huddled together, but when you find yourself left behind, who is the one who is going to rescue you, no matter how inconvenient?

[Wyldwraith]

On the OTHER hand, Who is far more likely to somehow get you killed during one of his morality-mandated rescues? Rick's morality cuts both ways. Yes, it's great when you're the one up a creek and need an against-the-odds last minute rescue, but when you're part of the 95% of the group who escaped cleanly in the first place it's REALLY HARD to refuse Rick when he starts making statements like "I'll go back for them alone if I have to. So, who's coming with me?" Then, as has been seen, people die while Rick has the best combatants tied up elsewhere. You think someone who only accompanied Rick because they either didn't want to be perceived as a coward or because they feel beholden to Rick for some past deed of his...when they're on their back with a Walker on top of them and that putrid mouth getting closer and closer to them no matter how hard they fight...you think in that moment such an individual is thinking "Ah well, at least I'm about to be eaten while doing the right thing. At least I HOPE the Walker bites through something vital very quickly, because the only thing worse than dying like this is surviving this attack to go through what Jim did?" Of course not. So, definitely a double-edged morality Sword of Damocles. Rick is a gambler, and he's willing to risk the many to save the one. Shane, ironically, is the conservative one. He thinks about the majority who are safe right now and how to keep them that way. To Shane, deploying 3 or more of their people to rescue a single person...who there's more than a little reason to believe is/could already be dead is an unacceptable risk. Rationally, Shane's right. Morally (at least a good chunk of the time) Rick's right. Your question is a good one Anxiety, but let's put add to it a little. "Who's going to try to rescue you even if it means putting the only person(s) you still have in mortal jeopardy?" Ask Andrea about the downside of moral commitment during a Zombie Apocalypse.

[Andy]

I Agree with pretty much everything wyld is saying and on top of that, ive never seen shane as the villain of the walking dead and it bugs me when people go "oohh he's endangering the group" and you ask what specifically shane has done that has endangered the group and nobody can ever answer it!

[bassman]

I Agree with pretty much everything wyld is saying and on top of that, ive never seen shane as the villain of the walking dead and it bugs me when people go "oohh he's endangering the group" and you ask what specifically shane has done that has endangered the group and nobody can ever answer it! Abruptly releasing the barn walkers was pretty dangerous when you think about it. I'm not saying he was wrong for putting them down, but unleashing a herd of 10-15(?) walkers on the group without more of a plan was pretty stupid....

[Tricky]

I also think that when Rick left Shane behind in the bus he wanted to give him a taste of how Otis must have felt in his final moments, force some real fear and guilt into him about it

[Andy]

Abruptly releasing the barn walkers was pretty dangerous when you think about it. I'm not saying he was wrong for putting them down, but unleashing a herd of 10-15(?) walkers on the group without more of a plan was pretty stupid.... I really dont see how a better plan could have been devised than arming and lining up all the best shooters and releasing a moderately small stream of walkers right into a firing squad?

[ProfessorChaos]

well, if shane had killed jenner, they'd have never gotten out of the CDC, so there's that. rick was able to convince jenner to allow them to leave by reasoning with him, rather than screaming at him and threatening to kill him. a group is composed of individuals, and rick's concern for individuals speaks volumes about the style of leadership that rick possesses. more people are followers rather than leaders in this world, and they look to someone they can rally behind and be motivated by in times of crisis. while shane isn't a villain, he lacks several traits that make an effective leader when compared to rick. the marine corps has an acronym for the 14 traits of effective leaders in combat. while there is no gospel or true definition for what we call leadership, it's about the best theory of the word that i've came across. the acronym is JJ DID TIE BUCKLE, and it abbreviates: justice judgement decisiveness integrity dependability tact initiative enthusiasm bearing unselfishness courage knowledge loyalty endurance look those words up, make a tally sheet for rick and shane, watch the series in its entirety (remaining as neutral as possible, without making these characters' journey a reflection of your own life), and add up the score. rick's the natural leader, hands down.

[bassman]

I really dont see how a better plan could have been devised than arming and lining up all the best shooters and releasing a moderately small stream of walkers right into a firing squad? Again, i'm not against Shane's thought that the barn walkers needed to be put down. I agree with is character in that respect. Much like Andrea has said to him in a previous episode, it's his presentation that leaves something to be desired. Releasing the barn walkers in the heat of the moment was a poor decision and could have potentially been a lethal one. Sure, he organized a shooting squad at the last second, but at the same time he also had a group of people that were opposing his actions and everything could have very quickly turned south. I guess what I'm getting at is that Shane is too impulsive. For that reason he puts everyone at risk. His intentions for the group are generally good, but he's just too much of a hot head to think things through before making his move. This is what makes Rick the better leader - he takes the time to consider every possible angle.

[ProfessorChaos]

I really dont see how a better plan could have been devised than arming and lining up all the best shooters and releasing a moderately small stream of walkers right into a firing squad? how about having one or two shooters enter on the 2nd floor as glenn did and picking them off from above?

[MinionZombie]

how about having one or two shooters enter on the 2nd floor as glenn did and picking them off from above? I was about to say the same thing. The way it happened in the show is excellent for the show, and for us viewers, but if that was actual real-life, then it's an exceptionally dangerous way to go about things. Take the high ground and take your time. I also think that when Rick left Shane behind in the bus he wanted to give him a taste of how Otis must have felt in his final moments, force some real fear and guilt into him about it A great scene, because it can be read numerous ways - that way particularly. well, if shane had killed jenner, they'd have never gotten out of the CDC, so there's that. rick was able to convince jenner to allow them to leave by reasoning with him, rather than screaming at him and threatening to kill him. a group is composed of individuals, and rick's concern for individuals speaks volumes about the style of leadership that rick possesses. more people are followers rather than leaders in this world, and they look to someone they can rally behind and be motivated by in times of crisis. while shane isn't a villain, he lacks several traits that make an effective leader when compared to rick. the marine corps has an acronym for the 14 traits of effective leaders in combat. while there is no gospel or true definition for what we call leadership, it's about the best theory of the word that i've came across. the acronym is JJ DID TIE BUCKLE, and it abbreviates: justice judgement decisiveness integrity dependability tact initiative enthusiasm bearing unselfishness courage knowledge loyalty endurance Excellent post Prof - indeed Shane's idea of justice is mercurial and perhaps even a little savage. His judgment is clearly off, he is decisive (but following an incorrect path in my view), integrity is not a word I'd use to describe Shane (it very much is with Rick, although in this tough new world that term becomes mercurial in itself) ... dependability, yep, that ain't Shane either. Tact certainly isn't, he takes the initiative (but again, wrong path, wrong methods), his enthusiasm is skewed, as is his bearing, he's acting selfishly ultimately (even though he killed Otis to get back to Carl, ultimately it's because he wants Carl and Lori as his own family and he's jealous of Rick) ... courage, in terms of facing a fight, he isn't lacking in though ... knowledge he has (gun training etc), loyalty ... to himself, sure, but clearly his life-long friendship with Rick wasn't particularly strong from his end when the shite hit the proverbial fan ... endurance, in some ways yes, in others ways not so much. Rick on the other hand exhibits many of those skills and character traits. You're quite right to point out the moment at the CDC ... at the very least Shane was resorted to threats of violence and murder in a moment of rage and frustration, while Rick was seeking resolution through reason in a moment of desperation.

[Andy]

how about having one or two shooters enter on the 2nd floor as glenn did and picking them off from above? Shane didnt know there was a second floor.