View Poll Results: What Should the Group Have Done With Randall?

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  • Execute Him

    16 55.17%
  • Release Him further away from the Farm

    4 13.79%
  • Release him as a new member of the group

    0 0%
  • Keep him under guard for now

    7 24.14%
  • Attempt to return or ransom him directly to his group

    0 0%
  • Use him as bait for an ambush on this other group of survivors

    2 6.90%
  • Other (explain in thread)

    0 0%
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Thread: TWD 2x11 "Judge, Jury, Executioner" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesandEights View Post
    That is arguing from a viewer standpoint, based on information the survivors don't have. Not saying that's wrong, just that some of us are not approaching the question in that way. If I was taking bets on what was right based on the narrative flow or what I know of the whole story line, my opinion on whether to murder Randall would probably be different.
    or like someone who was really scared might and just been attacked by a monster might?

    I mean shit, that's a pretty thin basis for concluding the guy has anger issues.

  2. #107
    through another dimension bassman's Avatar
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    Considering Randall's "30 person" group(if it is indeed that many), do any comic readers feel that maybe....

    Comic Spoilers:
     
    He's from Woodbury? It's a stretch, I know, but with the confirmed casting of The Governor for season three, perhaps they deal with Randall and then later meet up with the group not realizing its the same one Randall came from? Philip(Governor) is extremely nice to them, only to slowly reveal his true colors?

    I'll be disappointed if this happens before they introduce Michonne and set the prison up as their new safe haven, but it's certainly possible within the realm of the show, no?
    Last edited by bassman; 09-Mar-2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason: .

  3. #108
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    My thoughts too Bassman.

    WN

  4. #109
    Just Married AcesandEights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    do any comic readers feel that maybe....

    Comic Spoilers:
     
    He's from Woodbury? It's a stretch, I know, but with the confirmed casting of The Governor for season three, perhaps they deal with Randall and then later meet up with the group not realizing its the same one Randall came from? Philip(Governor) is extremely nice to them, only to slowly reveal his true colors?

    I'll be disappointed if this happens before they introduce Michonne and set the prison up as their new safe haven, but it's certainly possible within the realm of the show, no?
    Yeah, been wondering the same thing, and I feel pretty much the same way you do. I really don't want them to rush through story lines...I already feel like we've missed some good stuff already. That said, I am ready for them to leave the farm (or the group needs to start at least making some serious plans about what to do while staying there).

    "Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true." --Lord Dunsany

  5. #110
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    F*ck me Dale dead, Shane alive.

    I don't want to live on the planet anymore lol.

    Can I just say the zombie effects in this show take some beating.

  6. #111
    Desiderata Satanicus Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisvds View Post
    You would kill someone for a crime they might very well commit huh? Lethal force the only patently obvious way to deal with possible threats?
    wow. I'm not even going to argue against that.
    Basically kris, right now in this pre-zombie world we live in, if i thought you were a threat to my wife or my children, i would beat you to a bloody pulp to protect them and thats in a world with police, courts, a justice system...

    In a post-zombie world, i would not hesistate to shoot you if you posed any kind of threat to my family.

    Shane, Rick, Daryl and the rest of the group were 100% right on this one if you ask me, the only thing they got wrong is listening to dale so long. The kid should have been shot in the morning.

    Anyway, great episode i thought.. i was planning a long rant on what a twat dale is watching through this episode but after that ending, ill just say RIP dale. you wont be missed.

  7. #112
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    I wouldnt execute him, I dont like the kid & I wouldnt want him around the group, but I'd have had another attempt at ditching him a long, long way away (if I was Rick I'd take Daryl on a second attempt rather than Shane, less chance of it ending in a zombie rousing fist fight!). Killing a person isnt something that should come easily and the kid hasnt done anything to deserve it yet, that may change but so far he hasnt done anything other than protecting his friends when for all they knew in the bar scene Rick & co could have been a bunch of murderers & nutjobs too. They should just dump him so far away that he wouldnt stand a chance of finding his way back to his own group, never mind the farm. Without continued medical help he'd probably die of gangrene anyway from that wound in his leg.
    As for Dale I'll miss his character, he was the voice of reason and the only one in the group who hadnt been corrupted in some way by everything that had happened, he just wanted to be a good person.
    Carl is a little shit and I'd have given him a slap for the way he's behaving, hopefully Daryl will give him a thick ear when he realises his gun is missing from the bike...

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    I enjoy reading all posts on this forum, but damn.....I would definitely NOT like to be left alone with some of you....
    LOL I'm right there with you. When the zombie threat arrives, I need to stay far away from you blood thirsty SOBs.

    I'll miss Dale...he was the humanity of the group.

  9. #114
    Desiderata Satanicus Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
    I wouldnt execute him, I dont like the kid & I wouldnt want him around the group, but I'd have had another attempt at ditching him a long, long way away (if I was Rick I'd take Daryl on a second attempt rather than Shane, less chance of it ending in a zombie rousing fist fight!). Killing a person isnt something that should come easily and the kid hasnt done anything to deserve it yet, that may change but so far he hasnt done anything other than protecting his friends when for all they knew in the bar scene Rick & co could have been a bunch of murderers & nutjobs too. They should just dump him so far away that he wouldnt stand a chance of finding his way back to his own group, never mind the farm. Without continued medical help he'd probably die of gangrene anyway from that wound in his leg.
    As for Dale I'll miss his character, he was the voice of reason and the only one in the group who hadnt been corrupted in some way by everything that had happened, he just wanted to be a good person.
    Carl is a little shit and I'd have given him a slap for the way he's behaving, hopefully Daryl will give him a thick ear when he realises his gun is missing from the bike...
    So your saying you conscience would lead you to give the kid a slow and painful death, out in the zombie wild rather than a quick death from a bullet?

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    Considering Randall's "30 person" group(if it is indeed that many), do any comic readers feel that maybe....

    Comic Spoilers:
     
    He's from Woodbury? It's a stretch, I know, but with the confirmed casting of The Governor for season three, perhaps they deal with Randall and then later meet up with the group not realizing its the same one Randall came from? Philip(Governor) is extremely nice to them, only to slowly reveal his true colors?
    i had a similar theory a few days back, but the post was in another thread and i can't seem to recall which one.
    Last edited by ProfessorChaos; 10-Mar-2012 at 12:40 AM. Reason: fuckaduck

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    Considering Randall's "30 person" group(if it is indeed that many), do any comic readers feel that maybe....

    Comic Spoilers:
     
    He's from Woodbury? It's a stretch, I know, but with the confirmed casting of The Governor for season three, perhaps they deal with Randall and then later meet up with the group not realizing its the same one Randall came from? Philip(Governor) is extremely nice to them, only to slowly reveal his true colors?

    I'll be disappointed if this happens before they introduce Michonne and set the prison up as their new safe haven, but it's certainly possible within the realm of the show, no?
    Nope.

     
    Randall and the other two guys all said they were a nomadic group. Not safe and sound in their own private town. SO they cannot be the same group.

    And from the Woodbury folks' perspective, why would they want to leave a whole secured town to go live on a farm?! They wouldn't, unless they liked risking their lives.

  12. #117
    Twitching krisvds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    So your saying you conscience would lead you to give the kid a shot at surviving , out in the zombie wild rather than a quick death from a bullet?
    There. Fixed it.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisvds View Post
    There. Fixed it.
    Exactly, give him a shot rather than just executing him in cold blood. If they ditched him 200 miles away then he likely wouldn't find his way back & would give up trying to. Sure there would be risks in traveling that distance but the roads didn't seem bad when Rick & Shane went out with him the first time

  14. #119
    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
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    Well, well, well - there's an episode and a half.

    Very sad indeed to lose Dale, moreso because of the behind-the-scenes reason why his character was killed off (the rumour we heard a while back, as reported in the Darabont getting fired thread, did indeed turn out to be true ... there was only really one person it could have been considering the description that was given at the time from news sources. When it comes to casting decisions to existing cast members, I think we need to use spoiler tags in future situations if they arise, as you can figure out plot twists from casting changes).

    Anyway ... here we go:

    1) Despite, as Neil has said, the iffy staging of the zombie appearing behind Dale, and the ease of ripping into his stomach (but when has that ever been a problem for zombies, let us remember ), I thought writer Angela Kang did a bloody good job of making narrative sense out of a shitty behind-the-scenes situation that necessitated the killing off of one of the main characters. Dale was given lots of meat to chew on in this episode (having been used much more sparingly in recent episodes), and he played an important role - defending the humanity of the group, which is an extremely important thing to consider. Otherwise they'll just become feral beings no better than who they're trying to guard against.

    The truth is though, that they're in a right old pickle with Randall - they should have put him down when he was stuck on that fence, but as you can see, their humanity caused them a problem, but it hasn't yet cost them their souls - morally speaking they shouldn't kill him because of the toll it will take on them as a group, and individually - but then what on earth do you do with him? You can't turn him loose at the gate as he'll definitely know where he is, the last attempt to get rid of him didn't work out, but perhaps you could just follow the road for as long as you can and then leave him on the road side ... but then conceivably he could just follow the road back, so that's not so clean cut. He's a danger in both situations - killing him, and getting rid of him.

    I also liked how Kang worked in the issue of Carl's worry state of mind regarding the lives of others - his cavalier attitude - to have him goad Rick towards killing Randall was a wise choice narratively, to maintain Rick's decency, but also pose a father/son setting of examples. Then, having unstuck that zombie in the marshes when messing around, Carl has brutally seen the consequences of his dimwitted, childish actions - so hopefully that puts an end to his recent silliness (a result of this harsh and cruel world where there is no moral black & white anymore, and where death is ever present anc cheap).

    Really sorry to see Dale go, as I said the behind-the-scenes reasoning makes it a much more bitter pill to swallow, but I do hope that DeMunn walks straight into a major role in Darabont's new show L.A. Noir. DeMunn rocks - I'm very sad to see him leave the show, but he certainly went out on a high note narratively speaking.

    As for it showing on FXUK - here's what happened - Daryl says "sorry brother", shoots Dale, it cuts to black, and in a split second - totally undercutting the resonating tension - the dozy bint voice over woman blurts in with "up next, True Blood!" ... erm, excuse me 'continuity woman', but FUCK OFF. ACTUALLY FUCK OFF. One of my favourite characters has just been killed off in a shocking way, and you're sticking your ruddy oar in telling me about a show I know is up next anyway, but have sod all interest in watching.

    I did think it was also good to have Daryl be the one to do it - Rick's been through the ringer today, and having Daryl do it brings him right back into the group. Indeed "sorry brother" as his parting words to the man illustrates that inclusion into the group that Daryl's seeing once again, after the tragic failure of his long search for Sophia.

    2) KNB once again rock their talents - the zombie in the episode was really nicely done. Those exposed chompers, and particularly the wide and ever-so-dead eyes, was just wonderful.

    3) I do have some theories as to where the show might be going in the next couple of episodes, but I won't speculate on them here - rather I'll address them as-and-when they happen or don't happen in the next couple of remaining episodes.

    4) As for the poll, I voted to take Randall much further out ... but I'm extremely torn between the first two options ... letting him go, even much further out, does still possess the inherent risk of something extremely horrible happening to the group. Mass slaughter and rape, as Randall alluded to in the shed (there's something intrinsicly untrustworthy about Randall at this stage ... I hark back to the last episode when he was dealing with that zombie in the parking lot) ... but then what do you become by executing him? It's a catch 22 alright ... I guess at times like these a loose cannon really does come in handy. Someone to do the dirtiest work you wouldn't want to do, take the resultant flack, and then manage to stick around ... i.e. Shane ... but again, you'd still be complicit as a group (it was telling that it was only Rick, Shane, and Daryl present at the execution before Carl turned up to watch), so the loss of morality and humanity could be just as devestating in the long run.

    Keeping him under guard would just be delaying a decision ... but on the other hand, it could result in an opportunity, but on the other other hand, it could play to Randall's advantage if he is indeed a tricksy little bastard and not just someone who was picked up by the wrong group at the wrong time.

    They do need a longer term plan, but I assume that they'd be seeking to stay there anyway. Indeed Lori does say of the days getting shorter and the nights getting colder, and they need to do something - so Rick is going to ask Hershel if they can stay inside. So they do seem to be wanting to stay long-term (which makes sense).

    5) I don't know about others, but I'd have asked "where's Carl got to?" Sure there's a lot on your mind at that point, and it speaks to the sense of perilous calm they have being somewhat removed from the shit here on the farm, but at least when he turned up I'd have said "boy, why's your trousers all muddy - Mum just washed those for crying out loud! Where've you been?!" ... Carl would have lied, naturally, but they do need to keep a tighter leash on him ... but, again, with people having so much on their mind, being spread out over the area, and everyone thinking everyone else is keeping an eye on Carl, then it's bound to happen sooner or later ... kids do get into these scrapes routinely in the real world, so there's no reason it wouldn't happen on a day like that in TWD land.

    6) Nice to see Hershel warming to Glenn. The scene with the watch was quite nice - a good counter-point to all the impending execution stuff.

    7) Nice to see in this episode that Andrea was warmer with Dale. Indeed her coming out for his side in the debate was a nice touch - an echo of what could have been (as seen in the comics - I'm up to Volume 10 btw).

    8) Just watched The Talking Dead, connected with this episode, and they address the gutting of Dale. Their theory is that zombies have hardened finger tips - the flesh has rotted away mostly and so the tips are very bony and sharp (along with uncut nails), so that's how they theorise a zombie could tear open a person's stomach like that (which was made out of chicken breasts, among other things).
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 10-Mar-2012 at 11:26 AM.

  15. #120
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    Here's the thing:
    1) As to the argument that killing Randall paints the group into a corner regarding any potential dealings with Randall's group. Rick & Co. left 3 of their men dead on the ground already (or was it four, my memory isnt terribly sharp regarding last Sunday)...so any damage that's been done by killing members of the other group has already been done.

    2) As to taking Randall a long, long way off and dumping him. Besides the already mentioned hazards/difficulties of such a trip there's this: Say they do have to deal with Randall's group at some point. If they can't produce a living breathing Randall, why wouldn't the group Randall belongs to assume that the people who've killed multiple members of their group haven't done away with Randall and buried him in a shallow grave? So as far as painting Rick & Co. into a corner, making Randall "disappear" by dumping him far enough away that he can't find his way back either to the farm or his own group would amount to the exact same thing as shooting him so far as the reaction of his groupmates would be affected.

    3) The argument being made against shooting Randall, Ie: That once done, it's something that can't be undone applies with just as much force if you turn the logic around. If Randall isn't killed, and at some point contributes to or outright causes the death of one of "our group"...that's just as final. To me, YES it's a simple question. "Am I willing to tolerate any significant risk to the lives and well-being of my friends and loved ones that is in my power to eliminate? For me, that answer is no, no, a thousand times NO. Yes, the facts as the group knows them don't convict Randall 100% as a confirmed monster...but when it comes to civilization being gone and the responsibility for the lives and safety of the people you care for having become a direct and immediate personal responsibility...circumstancial evidence is enough for me to make the call, BECAUSE there is no positive offsetting factor that increases the safety/well-being of my people in letting him live.

    There's a REASON our ancestors lived in small tribes that were constantly at each other's throats. It's the inevitable result of having no umbrella-overwatch to mitigate conflicts of a serious nature between separate social groups. Ie: If a "tribe" of strangers = in number to your people are sighted setting up camp relatively nearby, what stops them from killing you all in your sleep if they're so inclined if you don't do unto them before they do unto you?

    Yes, I am talking about abandoning the morality forged in a civilized society. Such a morality is ONLY a positive thing so long as such a society endures. This is the core failing that makes Rick a less effective survivor than Shane, and why Dale would quite realistically have died in the situation he placed himself in. Following sounds of severe distress into the darkness, without even having your weapon in your hands and ready to fire. (Yes, I understand the character was being killed off for out-of-story motives...but if you look at the events leading up to his death, someone in that situation would UNDOUBTEDLY have fared better with a rifle in their hands than barehanded when they went down in a clinch with a ghoul. Even if you couldn't get a shot off, or even bludgeon the zombie, by holding it between the two of you and pushing upwards, the limited surface area concentrates the force you're exerting with your upward push. Compared to trying to hold another man-sized, man-shaped attacker away from your body barehanded, it's entirely possible you might even be able to open enough space between you and the zombie atop you that you're pushing back/upwards to draw your knees up and between the two of you. Which would a) prevent being manually disemboweled as Dale was, and b) More than DOUBLE the amount of force you're able to exert. Under THOSE circumstances, even an aged man like the Dale character represents would stand at LEAST a 50/50 chance of dislodging the zombie completely, if not send it over backwards and onto its ass/back and OFF YOU. Yet Dale didn't think of his moment-to-moment life in raw survivalist terms, and that's why the rifle was still slung over his shoulder when he went down, despite having enough auditory information to put a more aware individual on their guard 10x over.

    Rick and the late Dale though, they think FIRST in terms of the life they lived up until civilization collapsed, and in practical/pragmatic terms of cut and dried survival afterward. Which is why, for example, Rick never even CONSIDERED stopping the search for Sophia. Not after Carl was shot, not after Andrea was attacked and almost infected but for Maggie's miraculously-timed intervention, not after Daryl was thrown from a horse, attacked by Walkers, and nearly killed by Andrea because as a consequence of his injuries/exhaustion, Daryl was staggering & lurching forward just like a Walker. Not after Shane and Andrea nearly got swarmed in the residential neighborhood. Any ONE of these events would have been enough to cause a PRACTICAL leader to at LEAST stop, and re-evaluate the current course of action in depth before continuing on with it. Instead, Rick made his decision based ENTIRELY on emotional reactions to his long-held moral code.

    I'll say it again. When your actions, and those of a small group of family/friends/allies are ALL that stands between you and yours dying on any given day, it's CRAZY to take ANY risk that isn't offset by a reward/benefit of GREATER value than the severity of the risk taken. Randall has a 0% benefit-value to Rick and Co. so even if Randall was 99% likely to be a scared, mixed-up, non-threatening kid, what you're saying isn't that you're doing what you believe to be the right thing based on a 99% probability that things are as you would like to believe them to be. No, what you're REALLY saying is you consent wholeheartedly to a 1-in-100 chance that by not shooting Randall, one of your people will die as a result of that decision.

    With as many threats and dangers in a post-apocalyptic environment that you'd be subjected to and could do nothing to eliminate, how could you possibly justify ADDING to those life-and-death risks/dangers when doing so in no wise aids you and yours?

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