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Thread: TWD 2x13 "Beside The Dying Fire" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

  1. #151
    Just Married AcesandEights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    I don't see how shots heard off screen are meant to be Hershel. Sure, they could be, but how many people were shooting on the farm at the point? It could have been anyone...
    Good point. Begs the question as to whether people are having their immersion ruined by some aspects of the show, or instead their own view of things / expectations.

    "Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true." --Lord Dunsany

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    through another dimension bassman's Avatar
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  3. #153
    Fresh Meat bungi43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandrock74 View Post
    Forget the reloading of guns! For me, the thing that I can't believe they never show is everyone going to the bathroom. I mean, seriously, am I to believe that NONE of the survivors ever has to pee or poop??
    If you like shows/movies that show people doing their daily pipe cleaning...make sure to catch a Tom Hanks film. He pees in like everything he's in.

  4. #154
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    I don't see how shots heard off screen are meant to be Hershel. Sure, they could be, but how many people were shooting on the farm at the point? It could have been anyone...
    Certainly because with some of them it's the same location, same sequence, just a change of camera angle, and Hershal is not only the only person shooting there, he's the only one with a shotgun. So, in a number of the sequences it implies/shows he shoots repeatedly double-digit times... I'd suggest just showing NINE times is more than any shotgun can handle... Gun folks? Shotguns hold how many rounds typically?

    And I repeat, for all you arguing...

    ^^And all this nonsense would be solved had he walked out with a bag of shotguns... There was no need for Hershal being a one man shotgun machinegun - It was a poor bit of writing/directing/editing. Don't see why people are questioning those of us picking fault with it?!
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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  5. #155
    Desiderata Satanicus Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Certainly because with some of them it's the same location, just a different camera angle, and Hershal is not only the only person shooting there, he's the only one with a shotgun. So, in a number of the sequences it implies/shows he shoots repeatedly double-digit times... I'd suggest just showing NINE times is more than any shotgun can handle...
    The have a whole bag of shotguns man and just from the top of my head im pretty certain both glenn and tdog have shotguns too..

  6. #156
    through another dimension bassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    and Hershal is not only the only person shooting there, he's the only one with a shotgun.
    Glenn was also firing a shotgun from the Hyundai that he and Maggie were zooming around in....

  7. #157
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    The have a whole bag of shotguns man and just from the top of my head im pretty certain both glenn and tdog have shotguns too..
    They have a whole bag of "guns" man, up at the house. Shotguns were out at the cars being used for those ninja head-shots from a bouncing/moving vehicles. But Hershal was alone up at the house with a SINGLE shotgun. Can I suggest you watch it again....

    You count how many times Hershal fires, or it implies Hershal fires in your opinion. See how many times it shows or implies he fires more than 5-7 rounds in a row... And then note how frequently it implies he fires. ie: How infrequently he seems to have to reload - Keeping in mind reloading must take 10-20 seconds at least.

    I really don't see why some of you are being so defensive about this... Watch it again and behold the machine shotgun of Hershal They messed that sequence up, and there was no need for it to be the case! A bag of guns at his feet, and ONE SHOT OF HIM BENDING DOWN TO PICK UP A FRESH GUN! SORTED! Why defend the sequence?
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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  8. #158
    Dead Sammich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post

    So I just watched it again to see if my claims are valid. I've mentioned the episode time (approx) and a summary of events. Shots mentioned off camera are almost certainly meant to be Hershal IMHO:-
    12:30 = Hershal shown firing nine times
    12:40 = 2-3 shots off camera (no time to reload from previous shots)
    12:47 = Hershal shown firing 4 more times (no time to reload from previous shots), stops to reload (shown)
    13:06 = 2 shots off camera
    13:12 = 2 shot off camera
    13:17 = 7 shots on camera
    13:30 = 5 shots off camera (no time to reload since previous 7 shots)

    ...continued/sporadic gunshots - possible meant to be Hershal

    15:23 = 10 shots, stops to reload (shown)
    15:51 = 1 shot (stops for a chat with Rick)


    How many shells does your average pump action shotgun hold? 5-7?
    He was shooting what looked like either a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500, both of which hold 5 in the magazine plus 1 in the chamber. In order to fire 40 rounds that meant having 7 shotguns. That bag o' shotguns would have weighed in over 50 lbs.

    It could have been shown this way (the other non-Herschel scenes may be out of sequence because I only saw the episode once):

    Herschel brings out bag o' guns and takes out 2 shotguns.
    He tells one of his daughters to load while he shoots.
    He starts blasting away.
    Cut to the cowboys circling the wagons and shooting zombies.
    Cut back to Herschel handing off empty shotgun to daughter and resuming his zombie shooting.
    Show the daughter frantically loading a couple rounds.
    Cut to Daryl doing his Easy Rider stuff
    Cut back to Herschel shooting with hysterical Lori and Herschels other daughter in the background
    Herschel refusing to leave and hands off empty shotgun to even more frantic reloading daughter dropping ammo on the ground.
    Cut to Race with the Devil motorhome scene
    Cut back to Herschel yelling at reloading daughter to go with Lori and other daughter.
    Crying daughter reluctantly goes.
    Defiant Herschel then begins to reload the shotgun himself.
    Resume the normally scheduled episode.

    The extra scenes would have taken very minimal screen time but would have added much to believability.

    Having characters reload during a life or death situation can and has been used to heighten tension and give a sense of urgency to the situation. Remember that one scene in Dawn 78 of Steven and the zombie in the mall utilities room?

    If you want to see a movie that showed realistic firearm use then I suggest Blackhawk Down. Tell me then if you see anything pointless, boring, or a waste of screen time showing delta and the rangers reloading and NOT blasting away from the hip in full-auto.

  9. #159
    through another dimension bassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    They have a whole bag of "guns" man, up at the house.
    If im not mistaken, the bag of guns is NOT at the house. Andrea has the bag with her. She goes through that bag as she's running along through the woods....
    Last edited by bassman; 23-Mar-2012 at 08:37 PM. Reason: .

  10. #160
    Desiderata Satanicus Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Why defend the sequence?
    Exactly the same reason your so insistant on picking on this scene, IE, ITS STUPID

    My point the whole way through this has been "is it such a stretch of imagination that herschel could have reloaded off screen?" and that is still my point and which btw NOBODY has been able to counter. I never once said he had unlimited ammo or anything! Your point has changed several times now, first you said you saw him shoot off a load of rounds, which i said you clearly dont..then you changed it to you hear him shoot off a load of rounds off screen and you said he was the only one with a shotgun so it MUST be herschel shooting, which again i pointed out that glenn and tdog also have shotguns.. and now youve changed it to he shoots 5-7 rounds in a row.

    How many times you wanna get shot down bro?

    (pun intended)


  11. #161
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Exactly the same reason your so insistant on picking on this scene, IE, ITS STUPID
    How is it stupid? The show was showing the impossible taking place? For not reason other than lazy writing/directing. Something that cold have easily have been solved.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    My point the whole way through this has been...
    It seems your point (the whole way through this) is to ignore exactly was is shown?

    If you SEE him shooting NINE times from a shotgun that can only hold say FIVE rounds, surely a question mark appears in your head? If the camera then just changes angle, but its still exactly the same scene/sequence, and you hear additional shots, surely the question mark must get bigger?

    And if there's a wall of zombies only 20ft away, and he'd need to stop for 10-20second to reload, and yet they don't reach him, still no question marks?

    I've diligently and carefully watched the scene again... Have you?


    Again, watch the scene, and you count how many time you think Hershal fires in a row without taking 10-20second breaks to reload. Do that, then comment. And don't give me some, "oh it could have been someone else shooting, or a car back firing" horseshit when clearly that's not what is being shown or implied.


    Sorry if I sound "strong" here but, the scene just doesn't work very well. And there's no reason for it - A single bag of guns by his feet... A single shot showing him discarding an empty gun, and picking up a new one.... Sorted! All works perfectly...
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

  12. #162
    through another dimension bassman's Avatar
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    God I love this show. All of this reminds me of the Dawn04/Land days. Thank you, AMC.

  13. #163
    Desiderata Satanicus Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    God I love this show. All of this reminds me of the Dawn04/Land days. Thank you, AMC.
    DID SOMEONE MENTION LAND!?!?


  14. #164
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    Eh, was he firing too many shots? Sure. Did we see him reload? Sure, you see him in the background going into his pockets while Lori is talking to Carol. Also, before Rick saves him from that walker creeping up behind him. Does it bother me? Nah, I found it funny. Either way, if these are things being argued about than the show is doing good in my book.

    Also, that comment about wasting screen time looking for Sophia was interesting. Considering the very nice payoff at the end of the midsession would have been less powerful without it.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  15. #165
    Feeding Tricky's Avatar
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    I present to the jury - Exhibit A



    Now how many rounds did Arnold manage to squeeze out of that one magazine on that machine gun without reloading? How did he manage to hose down every single target without looking down the sights once? Why could not a single soldier in that "piss ant" army hit him despite emptying entire clips in his direction when he wasnt even behind cover? Why does a grenade not turn him into pink mist? Why do anti-personnel mines planted outside buildings cause them to explode from the inside with the power of a cruise missile? Why does Arnold have about 60 rounds on the ammo belt on that M60, yet manages to fire off around 2000 without the belt even depleting at all?

    And this, your honour, is why I was prepared to ever so slightly suspend belief with regards the amount of shells in Herschels shotgun when holding off the shambling hordes of the undead, and for my imagination to tell me that he reloaded between scenes when the camera was pointing elsewhere. Ladies and gentleman of the jury, you are free to deliberate.


    Anyway, loved the episode, great end to the season and it has completely torn up the "safe" image of the farm, and nicely sets things up for season 3! Would you have stayed with Rick when he made his speech, or would you have thought "Dont be bossing me around sunshine, I've got a gun as well" and gone off on your own?

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