TWD 2x13 "Beside The Dying Fire" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Andy]

Now how many rounds did Arnold manage to squeeze out of that one magazine on that machine gun without reloading? How did he manage to hose down every single target without looking down the sights once? Why could not a single soldier in that "piss ant" army hit him despite emptying entire clips in his direction when he wasnt even behind cover? Why does a grenade not turn him into pink mist? Why do anti-personnel mines planted outside buildings cause them to explode from the inside with the power of a cruise missile? Why does Arnold have about 60 rounds on the ammo belt on that M60, yet manages to fire off around 2000 without the belt even depleting at all? We're bringing arnie into this now!? Even though (i think) we are on the same side in this debate, i feel i must point out all of these questions can be answered with 2 words.. ITS ARNIE. I would hate to sit through an arnie film with you if your going to attempt to bring any kind of logic or realism into it... BTW your clip there just misses my favourite music cue in commando, when arnie is running up the beach from the plane. pure EPIC.

[Tricky]

Haha we are indeed on the same side, I had no problem with Hershel shooting off all those shells with the shotgun, like I say I just let my imagination tell me that he reloaded off camera. I bring Arnie into it because despite Commando being a hugely enjoyable film, the unlimited ammo of the weapons goes into ridiculous territory which really does suspend belief, so this slight issue with this small scene in TWD is really nothing to worry about in this awesome zombie show we're being treated to. The question that bugs me more is why they havent picked up any automatic weapons yet? In the first season Rick and the others came across several different military blockades which had been overrun, so were these soldiers either unarmed or had all their assault rifles and light machine guns been scooped up by other survivors or retrieved by their comrades before they withdrew to somewhere that we havent seen yet?

[rgc2005]

One thing I truly love about this show is the characters are as real as the rest of us. Everyone, in their own way is bi-polar, selfish, indecisive, etc with absolutely zero idea of what they really want. Even Rick is not sure of what he wants and his sense of duty prevents him from acting often. Leadership and Personal-Familial Safety do not go hand in hand which is why he always runs off on fool's errands. Would you have stayed with Rick when he made his speech, or would you have thought "Dont be bossing me around sunshine, I've got a gun as well" and gone off on your own? Only in the movie world would anybody leave at that moment. If none of them stood up during the Shane vs Rick Barn scene then none will leave in the middle of the night with no ammo. (Not until I get my hands on Hershel's Shotgun and Rick's 357 with the "Infinite Ammo" code locked.) FYI, Season 1 when Rick joins the group Shane sees the empty Python and offers Rick a handful of loose bullets from his range bag. These days .357 rimmed is nowhere near available as is 9mm, .45 or .40 auto but it is Rick's primary weapon and he shoots it ALOT. FYI, there were scenes showing Shane stocking the Kia for a long term bug out and Glenn at one point mentioned putting water in the trunks of the vehicles. BUT THEY NEVER CHECK THEIR SURROUNDINGS, CLEAR BUILDINGS OR SCAVENGE UNLESS RICK TELLS THEM. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! facepalm fail.

[Sammich]

FYI, Season 1 when Rick joins the group Shane sees the empty Python and offers Rick a handful of loose bullets from his range bag. These days .357 rimmed is nowhere near available as is 9mm, .45 or .40 auto but it is Rick's primary weapon and he shoots it ALOT. Rick might now be shooting .38 specials from the Python since Lori and at least one other person (Daryl?) appear to be using those caliber revolvers also.

[Neil]

I just let my imagination tell me that he reloaded off camera We SEE him shooting nine rounds, and then you can HEAR him shooting another half a dozen immediately afterwards with no space for reloading. For me (& others) its a real roll-eyes moment. The program is clearly telling the viewing Hershal is firing over a dozen shots in a row from a shotgun and not having to reload. It also gives the impression he's reloading all these rounds in a matter of a few seconds. When I watch this (the first time) it broke me out of the scene. I realised the writers were clearly telling me a lie, so it (unnecessarily) detached me a bit from the events being shown. So I will repeat again, the scene could have been made 'believable' and had more depth if the writers/director had given it just a couple of seconds of attention. And I'll ask again why anyone is disputing this? ie: Hershal drops a bag for shotguns by his feet, and just once we see him digging into the bag for another gun. OR, as others have suggested, his daughter is next to him for a while reloading a second gun. Either of these adds believability and even more importantly, depth to the scene. So, what's to dispute? Why not keep it believable and more interesting (at no expense in screentime)? I apologise again if I sound as if I'm being overzealous, or confrontational on this matter. But I really do see it as a sign of lazy writing/directing. It means the writers are not following the rules and playing fairly with the audience, and this is risky. Someone dropped the ball here and they had numerous chances to catch it again, but chose not to, of forgot to even try. Surely we want the series to be as well thought out, deep and believable as possible. And if this can be achieve at no expense other than a bit of considered thinking, then what's the problem? -- -------- Post added at 08:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 AM ---------- The question that bugs me more is why they havent picked up any automatic weapons yet? In the first season Rick and the others came across several different military blockades which had been overrun, so were these soldiers either unarmed or had all their assault rifles and light machine guns been scooped up by other survivors or retrieved by their comrades before they withdrew to somewhere that we havent seen yet? Also, why don't they use trucks more often to mow/slow creatures down...

[MinionZombie]

Oh my, that gave me my first good chuckle of the day. God I love this show. All of this reminds me of the Dawn04/Land days. Thank you, AMC. DEAR GOD NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Would you have stayed with Rick when he made his speech, or would you have thought "Dont be bossing me around sunshine, I've got a gun as well" and gone off on your own? Thank heavens - a DIFFERENT TOPIC OF CONVERSATION AT LONG F*CKING LAST! I'd definitely stick with Rick ... hey, there's a campaign sticker "Stick with Rick 2012" ... but if you're in an opposing viewpoint it could be "Rick's a Dick 2012". But yeah, I'd definitely stay with Rick. I'm sure he'll continue to take on board the opinions, criticisms, and concerns of the rest of the group, but in such a situation decisions have to be made, not cobbled together and half-assed. Shit needs to be done in order to continue surviving - however, naturally, this is stopping just short of 'going the whole Shane' on any given situation. They're stronger together than they are apart, FACT. We SEE him shooting nine rounds, and then... Oh Jesus Christ, is this still being talked about?! *runs like a screaming madman from the thread in search of a well to dive down for a bit of peace and quiet ... ... ... ... ... wait a minute, what's that smell?* Also, why don't they use trucks more often to mow/slow creatures down... Would you want to go and get them? Perhaps if you come across one naturally and have the time and space to deal with it, but if there's no keys and you don't know how to hotwire something, there's no point. In Dawn it was convenient and part of an actual plan specific to their needs. However this does remind me of the RV - left abandoned by the burning barn ... ... I wonder if it survived at all? I mean, it was right next to an inferno, so it might be gone for good. On the other hand, it might have survived (something which I'm sure some members here would very much enjoy endlessly bitching about ... but an RV would certainly be a useful tool. You can hold numerous people and supplies inside one vehicle, which doubles as a mobile watch tower, rather than separate vehicles ... ... but well, I do wonder if the RV's just flat out burned out now. Then again, if you can fix corroded parts with a screwdriver, it can survive an inferno ... *cue the ultra-nitpickers*

[Neil]

Oh Jesus Christ, is this still being talked about?! Yes we are! And I'm going to carry on till every last one of you mutter futters agrees I'm totally and utterly 100% right! Yeh! So stick that up your shotgun and shoot it out 12 times in a row!

[Moon Knight]

MZ, sadly, the RV was shown on fire along with the barn. It's toast.

[niiru]

How is it stupid? The show was showing the impossible taking place? For not reason other than lazy writing/directing. Something that cold have easily have been solved. Since we've seemingly already acquiesced to the idea that it's acceptable to not show the entire drive time as they're rolling down the back hills of Georgia heading to points unknown, can we also accept that possibly, just possibly, some of the battle was compressed? I.e. your timeline from your previous post may not have been *real time*? There is no clock on the screen showing you time elapsing. There is no sense for what is occurring simultaneously, for how the hershel scene unfolds temporally. Perhaps what you see on the screen as happening in a few minutes is actually happening over the course of 15 or 30 minutes. Perhaps one of the roving bands of ninja shooters in vehicles is helping keep the herd back from hershel shooting in that direction giving him cover to reload.

[Neil]

There is no clock on the screen showing you time elapsing. There is no sense for what is occurring simultaneously, for how the hershel scene unfolds temporally. Perhaps what you see on the screen as happening in a few minutes is actually happening over the course of 15 or 30 minutes. Perhaps one of the roving bands of ninja shooters in vehicles is helping keep the herd back from hershel shooting in that direction giving him cover to reload. Nope... Some of the scenes are certainly shown to imply actual real time... - Twice we see him shooting NINE or MORE times in one sequence. I don't believe a regular shotgun can hold that many rounds? Can someone comment? - Immediately subsequent scenes are then certainly presented such that they are a continuation timewise, and yet even more rounds are fired without a pause to reload. So he is shown shooting nine or ten times, and then editing implies he shoots yet even more! And then the fact he holds off the dead (seen infront of him) implies he is able to shoot and reload at a huge rate of knots. ie: He doesn't have to stop for 20 seconds to fumble in another dozen (?) cartridges. If he had to stop for twenty seconds, they'd be on him? There's no getting around it; the writing, direction, or editing is unnecessarily at fault. It could have been done better with only a minuscule amount of attention to render the sequence 100% believable, and thus have far more depth. Again, why question this? What would be the problem with Hershal having a bag of 3-4 shotguns at his feet?

[Andy]

Your not right though neil, look at you.. you have 4 or 5 people here against 1. That makes you wrong by majority decision

[bassman]

MZ, sadly, the RV was shown on fire along with the barn. It's toast. I was more upset about watching the RV burn than I was for Jimmy and Otis' wife's death. Which also brings up the question...why should I care about their deaths? They were only put in the show to die and had absolutely no purpose. Particularly Jimmy....

[Neil]

I was more upset about watching the RV burn than I was for Jimmy and Otis' wife's death..... Did the RV doors opening scene feel a bit contrived to folks too? ie: They just sort of sprang open? I guess thinking about it though, if they weren't specifically locked, they'd do that!?

[bassman]

Damn, Neil. You have to stop overthinking it, man.

[Neil]

Your not right though neil, look at you.. you have 4 or 5 people here against 1. That makes you wrong by majority decision Two points:- 1) Can I assume correctly, you still haven't re-watched it? But you'll still pass comment? 2) How can I be wrong? He's shown shooting 9-10 times without reloading, even ignoring the scenes then continue immediately on to imply he shoots even more rounds (without reloading). And the fact there's walkers that don't reach him in the 10-20 seconds he'd need to reload? Seems like you're defending the indensable, for the sake of it? Just explain to me how a bag of shotguns at Hershal's feet would have done anything other than improved/explained the whole scene?