TWD 2x13 "Beside The Dying Fire" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Neil]

Moving on from ammo related points, what the hell was the point of setting the barn on fire without an immediate exit strategy? Wouldn't it have been safer to climb up into the loft and kick down the ladder while trying to flag down someone's attention from the hayloft door? Yeh, I wondered the exact same thing too!

[kidgloves]

Moving on from ammo related points, what the hell was the point of setting the barn on fire without an immediate exit strategy? Wouldn't it have been safer to climb up into the loft and kick down the ladder while trying to flag down someone's attention from the hayloft door? Lets say Rick sets fire to the barn, climbs up there with Carl and NO ONE COMES. Now, instead of being able to survive until they starve or die of thirst, they end up going down down down in a burning barn of fire. Would anyone else here turn on the oven and climb in? They were probably going to get out of the barn the same way Glen got in when he was meeting Maggie to bump some uglies and saw the zombies in the barn

[krisvds]

Setting the barn on fire to get the attention of the rest of the team was the plan all along. See, that's why it's a ricktatorship now ...

[bassman]

A fair point, bassman ... but then I'd ask him to explain, give a bit of context. Funnily enough this loops around to what you need to show and what you don't need to show if-and-when on screen. We the audience know the reasoning, so Rick could very easily explain the back story off-screen entirely, and then just have one of the characters reference him telling them all in 3x01 so that we know that they know, you know? That's certainly possible. Although, within the context of 213, it's reasonable to assume the other members of the group are looking at Rick like he's totally lost his marbles. All they know at this point is that Shane is dead and Rick had a hand in it. Rick never really gave a good explaination. So from the other characters' point of view, Rick is looking a bit shady right now. On a different note.....I've been reading all across the internet that Lori tempted Rick to kill Shane, then became angry with him for doing so. Do you guys agree with this? I don't see it that way at all. She's not upset that Rick killed Shane, she's upset that her son not only saw it happen, but participated. While it may be a shock to think Shane is finally gone, she's more angry with Rick because Carl was there. Not by Rick's choice, of course....

[kidgloves]

On a different note.....I've been reading all across the internet that Lori tempted Rick to kill Shane, then became angry with him for doing so. Do you guys agree with this? I don't see it that way at all. She's not upset that Rick killed Shane, she's upset that her son not only saw it happen, but participated. While it may be a shock to think Shane is finally gone, she's more angry with Rick because Carl was there. Not by Rick's choice, of course.... No i don't agree at all. The very 1st conversation and scene that Shane and Rick have in the pilot when they are talking about Lori shows up her character very well. She is a very indecisive woman who has no idea what she wants and doesn't think about the consequences of her actions

[White_Zombie]

No i don't agree at all. The very 1st conversation and scene that Shane and Rick have in the pilot when they are talking about Lori shows up her character very well. She is a very indecisive woman who has no idea what she wants and doesn't think about the consequences of her actions Agreed, couldn't of said it better myself. Can't wait until she bites the bullet or should i say the walkers bite her.

[AnxietyDilemma]

That's certainly possible. Although, within the context of 213, it's reasonable to assume the other members of the group are looking at Rick like he's totally lost his marbles. All they know at this point is that Shane is dead and Rick had a hand in it. Rick never really gave a good explaination. So from the other characters' point of view, Rick is looking a bit shady right now. I know that Rick came across as unstable, but he did say that Shane killed Randall, and then lead Rick into the woods to put a bullet in his back. That sums it up, whether they believe him or not, I don't know.

[darth los]

There's no doubt that shane killed randall. Darryl and glenn confirmed it. So they know two things. Shane explicity went against Rick's wishes and shane is a cold blooded murderer. Up until this point Rick has shown himself to be a man of honor and at the very least doesn't take matters of life and death lightly. Shane on the other hand has been a tempermental loose cannon from the start. Until proof surfaces that he's lying Rick gets the benefit of the doubt from me. His explanation about what happened makes logcal sense. What do we know about what happens when one goes off on missions with shane? He kills or tries to kill you. It happened to otis, randall and rick in 18 miles out. So why have most of the able bodied men in the woods looking for a man he knew was already dead? The answer is obvious. If anyone knows that lori does. She's the only other living soul that knows about the love triangle and if the rest of the group knew what she did what rick said wouldn't seem so horrible. IF anything Darryl has proven to be a good judge of character and able to sniff out bullshit as he did with shane's story about otis.

[MinionZombie]

They were probably going to get out of the barn the same way Glen got in when he was meeting Maggie to bump some uglies and saw the zombies in the barn ^^^ This... Setting the barn on fire to get the attention of the rest of the team was the plan all along. See, that's why it's a ricktatorship now ... ^^^ And this... No i don't agree at all. The very 1st conversation and scene that Shane and Rick have in the pilot when they are talking about Lori shows up her character very well. She is a very indecisive woman who has no idea what she wants and doesn't think about the consequences of her actions I go with Mazzara on the issue - she'd realised that she loves both men, but that she'd also been setting them against each other by her actions, and then toss in Carl, and her also having a shock of Rick killing Shane, and it's a big old head-fuck for Lori ... speaking of whom, I don't understand some of the sheer vitriol her character receives in some quarters of the internet.

[Thorn]

I go with Mazzara on the issue - she'd realized that she loves both men, but that she'd also been setting them against each other by her actions, and then toss in Carl, and her also having a shock of Rick killing Shane, and it's a big old head-fuck for Lori ... speaking of whom, I don't understand some of the sheer vitriol her character receives in some quarters of the internet. I used to defend her on these forums quite a bit, but there are several reasons I personally dislike Lori at this time. 1) Her get in the kitchen speech to Andrea, I think it shows a lack of character on her part. It shows she lacks intelligence, and is controlling. It shows that she has a closed mind, and has a view of the world that is rooted back in the 50's. Women cook and clean... in the kitchen...barefoot and pregnant. 2) She is a horrible mother, she can not control her child, and is constantly pushing him off on others. Her house is out of order on many levels and again she tries to tell others how to live their lives. 3) She manipulates people second only to the now dead Dale, she should mind her business. 4) She handled Shane poorly after Rick came back and this could have contributed in a large way to him breaking as a man. 5)Setting Rick and Shane against each other, and then the indecision about it and turning on Rick after he eliminated the problem. No matter the circumstances her husband was almost murdered and had to fight for his life to protect himself, his family, and the group and she turns on him. Loving both men does not make that right, it makes it worse in fact.

[Sammich]

The burning of the barn was done for a final cutting of ties to the farm as it was a central figure to the story arc. Herschel's zombified family members were kept in the barn keeping his group on the farm. Zombie Sophia was kept in the barn unknown to Rick and kept them on the farm as they searched for her. Glenn and Maggie viewed the barn as a haven away from the outside world. Carl standing outside the barn demanding Rick shoot Randall was a mirror of what the group was becoming. Shane's final cross over to cold blooded murderer took place in the barn as he was deciding what to do with Randall. Fire has always been viewed as an element of cleansing and Rick igniting the barn was symbolic of absolving the past and starting anew as he and Carl emerged from the burning barn, like a phoenix from the ashes.

[bassman]

Wow.....you found much more meaning in it than I did. Rick was just trying to draw the walkers away from the group, imo. I like what you read into it, though....

[AcesandEights]

I like what you read into it, though.... I agree. Keen insight, Sammich.

[Wyldwraith]

Gave it a good deal of time to cool off, That said, the "TWD Spell" is 95% broken for me. I enjoyed the absurdly unrealistic zombie kills from speeding vehicles in the dark for the gore, but I felt NOTHING for any of the characters until Andrea went down under the zombie she'd just shot and got left behind. Then her flight through the woods actually engaged me. I'm reserving judgment as to her "savior" however. Like many others have said previously, I thought the visual narrative of watching the genesis of the zombie herd and its migration, but found it laughably unbelievable that a) That herd basically bee-lined it to the farm, b) Unlike the original contact with the "Highway Herd" there were NO front-runners that could've been taken as a warning by the survivors. Now, before you point at barn zombies or the pair Herschel and Rick were hauling out of the bog we have basic pedigrees indicative of those zombies being locals. c) In the dark, in broken wooded terrain dotted with creeks and bogs, and in the absence of active stimuli to focus the attention of the Walkers, it it **100%** UNBELIEVABLE that Daryl & Glenn, and Rick/Shane were trudging about those very woods in search of Randall and didn't run into ANY Walkers except Randall. ESPECIALLY when the body of the herd was 1) As compact as it was portrayed as being and 2) So close that in under a MINUTE after the shot Carl fired the Walkers were streaming en masse from the nearby woods close enough for Rick and Carl to see them as a wave of undead in that same under-a-minute time-frame. d) The herd busted through the fence in one place, yet streamed out in three different directions so thoroughly as to encompass the farm from three sides by random chance. It was a nice twist that Rick ONCE AGAIN owes his life and that of his son to the busting open of the barn and the elimination of the barn-Walkers he and others disparaged Shane for. Last thing: Rick's speech. From his own mouth we heard incontravertible evidence that even if Rick believed 100% that Shane truly had a last-minute change of heart and discovered he couldn't go through with killing his ex-best friend, Rick would STILL have killed Shane. "You all saw how he was. Constantly pushing me, challenging me, causing problems. I wanted it over. I just wanted it over." To say nothing of Rick's comments about his belief that Shane saw him as being "in the way" concerning Lori and Carl. It isn't a question of whether Rick killed Shane in self-defense, or even if Rick was or wasn't justified in killing Shane. In his heart, Rick MURDERED SHANE when Shane obviously couldn't bring himself to pull the trigger. Worse, Rick realized that and used that sentiment to lull Shane into indecisiveness, thereby setting him up for the kill with all his talk about it not being too late, that Shane could still come back from this etc. Rick killing Shane doesn't prove that Rick has what Shane had. Killing Shane, combined with the raw pettiness and hypocrisy of his totalitarian statements to the group aren't those of a man whose found the courage and resolve to make hard choices. They're the words of a judgmental hypocrite making it up as he goes along. There's a line from the Chronicles of Riddick I think applies quite nicely to Rick now. "If he has fear, he has weakness. If he has weakness, he is unworthy of lordship." Rick is going the totalitarian route NOW because he knows his most recent and significant choice is morally indefensible, so he changes the rules from "We'll do things Dale's way to prove he was wrong about the group being broken" to "Anyone who stays will do things my way, this isn't a democracy." Hypocrisy. It's not an evolution into a hard-edged survivor. It's simply a collapse of his moral code and fear leading him into using hypocrisy and totalitarianism as refuge from indefensible crimes. Shane pissed me off at times, and he certainly had piss-poor presentation of many good ideas...but I never felt the CONTEMPT for him that I felt for Rick in the season finale. I honestly don't know if I'll return to the series when Season 3 returns in the fall. Caring about the survivors is a necessary, VITAL lynchpin to effective drama and suspense in a zombie-apocalypse-themed narrative. I'm not into futility, so rooting for zombies that won't be allowed to massacre 90% of the group isn't a viable course. I go beyond no longer caring about any of the characters besides Andrea, into actively desiring the deaths of characters they'll never kill enough of off. That doesn't leave a workable basis for enjoying the show in my mind. At least for now. I may change my mind given time, but Rick's speech at the end of the finale was just awful. Instead of love-hate as I felt for the Shane character, that speech solidified my feelings for the Rick character as immovable hate-hate. Just my .02

[Knighty]

Obviously the series isn't for you, I and of course many others can see the faults and also it's strengths but it's never going to be for everyone. The fact you can write so much about it and obviously have deep thoughts about the characters and situation does at least show the writers are obviously doing something right though.