Gun Ownership

[botc]

He was talking to me. If you thought that was uncivil you should see me on a bad day.

[Sammich]

That's not what we're discussing here. We're discussing automatic weapons used in crimes, not conspiracy theories. Are you saying the Dividians never used their automatic weapons? Davy Aguilera was an undecover ATF officer at the Davidian church and warned the ATF not to conduct the raid because the Koresh knew they were coming. If the Davidians had the alleged automatic weapons and allegedly fired first as the government claims, they would have killed ALL of the agents as they were being driven up in an unprotected cattle car. There wasn't any evidence that they had any machineguns before the raid and the Justice Dept refused to allow Failure Analysis Associates, Inc at the request of the Republicans to x-ray the remains of the guns for evidence of conversions. -- -------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ---------- Sammich, c'mon man, I don't have to be a technical expert to know the average joe gun owner isn't smart or stupid enough (depending on your viewpoint) to convert their weapon to fully automatic. If it was "that easy" every gun owner and their mom would be doing it and would probably have at least one automatic weapon if not more. I know MANY gun owners, not a single one of them have - or even want - an automatic weapon. Give to me a large break. Yes, give me a break. Here is one example: SWD Lightning Link It is something that can be made from a piece of sheet metal and a dremel and yes the dimensions are easily available from the internet. Yet, you continue to trying to misdirect to arguments about "many gun owners" you "know" and other tangents. -- -------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 PM ---------- As for me, this is my last word on this topic. This kind of subject is worse than discussion about religion. And I'm one of the idiots FOR gun ownership! No, you are for what is known as Goldilocks gun control.

[botc]

Or you can just buy the slide fire stock which bump fires either an ak or ar15 and mimics full auto fire. Yet its still semi auto.. One shot per trigger pull. The slide fire stock uses recoil to bounce your finger on the trigger and said device is BATFE approved. Just buy one, install, and go to town. No need for an illegal conversion just buy one online or at your local shop. You boys and possibly girls can gripe all you want about gun control and which one of the politicians should jerk each other with this issue but... You ain't gotta nuff money, time, or resources to even fool with it. Nothing is gonna change period. And in closing its better to have one and not need it to not having it and being screwed.

[SymphonicX]

People shouldn't be allowed to own computers or digital recording devices. If you want to own a hand operated printing press or quill and paper then that is fine. I absolutely detest that argument for gun ownership. It's almost the lowest form of argument for this subject - right next to "guns don't kill people, people kill people..." Ugh. Can't you come up with anything better? Even the basic arguments for gun ownership are stronger than the default response of "let's ban kitchen knives then". I mean not only is it irrational as an argument, immature and ill-thought out - it really makes no sense whatsoever, and devalues the argument for pro-gun ownership completely - and makes whoever uses this argument either akin to some rifle-brandishing redneck, or a "Hitler did that so it must be bad" internet debater.

[Sammich]

I absolutely detest that argument for gun ownership. It's almost the lowest form of argument for this subject - right next to "guns don't kill people, people kill people..." Then you agree that those who call for gun control can only supply the "lowest form of argument" because this is an analogy to their claim that the Founders only meant the 2nd amendment to apply to firearms available when the Bill of Rights was written. Using their "logic" the qualification should apply to all 10 amendments. Ugh. Can't you come up with anything better? Even the basic arguments for gun ownership are stronger than the default response of "let's ban kitchen knives then". I mean not only is it irrational as an argument, immature and ill-thought out - it really makes no sense whatsoever, and devalues the argument for pro-gun ownership completely - and makes whoever uses this argument either akin to some rifle-brandishing redneck, or a "Hitler did that so it must be bad" internet debater. Once again, these are examples of turning the gun control supporters arguments right back at them. They only can supply their "feelings", personal fear and ignorance as excuses to ban guns that they think are too small, too big, look too scary or shoot too fast. You obviously have not seen the research done by Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership in government imposed gun control leading to genocide and it is not just limited to Hitler. Your ignorance and refusual to recognize past history is irrational, immature and ill thought out. Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership Gun Control -- The KEY to GENOCIDE! "Gun Control is a Prelude to Totalitarian rule..." Raging Against Self Defense: A psychiatrist Examines The Anti-Gun Mentality

[Mr. Clean]

I am sure all of you know this documentry movie but if not ; i suggest you to watch it. Tell me your not trying to bring Micheal Moore into this arguement....

[Sammich]

After some research you are correct with that statement about 86. Damn shop commandos. One thing I learned from years in the firearms industry is to take what you hear at gun stores and gun shows with a huge grain of salt, especially from the people behind the counter trying to sell you something. It is very rare nowdays to find gun stores with employees that actually know about guns as they have been replaced with minimum wage video game warriors who would be at home selling used cars. The other ones to watch out for are the gun store groupies. These are the guys that just hang out and compete with the employees at who can come up with the biggest b.s. I've come across countless Walter Mitty types claiming they were SEALs, snipers, special forces, etc. Claims of M14s being used regularly to snipe at 1300 yards. AKs can't hit anything past 75 yards. .45 acp hit on a pinky will tear an entire arm off. Bullet impacts throw people through the air. AKs can be filled with concrete and never jam. M16s will jam from a single speck of dirt. And it goes on and on.

[Mr. Clean]

One thing I learned from years in the firearms industry is to take what you hear at gun stores and gun shows with a huge grain of salt, especially from the people behind the counter trying to sell you something. It is very rare nowdays to find gun stores with employees that actually know about guns as they have been replaced with minimum wage video game warriors who would be at home selling used cars. The other ones to watch out for are the gun store groupies. These are the guys that just hang out and compete with the employees at who can come up with the biggest b.s. I've come across countless Walter Mitty types claiming they were SEALs, snipers, special forces, etc. Claims of M14s being used regularly to snipe at 1300 yards. AKs can't hit anything past 75 yards. .45 acp hit on a pinky will tear an entire arm off. Bullet impacts throw people through the air. AKs can be filled with concrete and never jam. M16s will jam from a single speck of dirt. And it goes on and on. I use to work with a guy who said he only buys new guns and "breaks" them in by shooting one round, then spending 30 mins cleaning the gun. Repeat, this step 5x....next shoot 5 rounds...clean for 30 mins....repeat 10x.....all the way to 20-30 rounds....then cleaning....I always rolled my eyes at this story....every single time he told it(heard it more times than I can count)....He always claimed it made the guns sooooo much more accurate. Well, I was getting my tires rotated last summer and picked up a hunting magazine and no shit was there a article about this "breaking in" process. The article explained the process much better than he ever did but I still can't swallow that it makes a rifle any more accurate than maybe 3% more than a rifle not "broke in". So I agree with you...but add magazines to that list

[Purge]

Proud member of the Constitution Party here. The right to bear arms is absolutely essential.

[Sammich]

I use to work with a guy who said he only buys new guns and "breaks" them in by shooting one round, then spending 30 mins cleaning the gun. Repeat, this step 5x....next shoot 5 rounds...clean for 30 mins....repeat 10x.....all the way to 20-30 rounds....then cleaning....I always rolled my eyes at this story....every single time he told it(heard it more times than I can count)....He always claimed it made the guns sooooo much more accurate. Well, I was getting my tires rotated last summer and picked up a hunting magazine and no shit was there a article about this "breaking in" process. The article explained the process much better than he ever did but I still can't swallow that it makes a rifle any more accurate than maybe 3% more than a rifle not "broke in". So I agree with you...but add magazines to that list The first thing that should be done with ANY firearm is to clean and lubricate it before it is fired the first time. It serves the purpose of familiarizing the owner with disassembly/reassembly and factory maintenance recommendations. I can't count the number of times someone with a brand out of the box gun was complaining about malfunctions, but had a blank stare when asked if he cleaned and oiled the gun. Guns from the factory are covered with what is essentially just a rust preventative (surplus gun buyers just love cosmoline) that does not work as lubrication. More often than not the internal parts will also be dry. Dry metal on dry metal do not get along well with each other, especially stainless steel. The whole rifle "barrel break-in" thing was created by a barrel maker so that he could sell more barrels as this procedure could actually cause harm. The other issue is that many people do not know the correct cleaning process. Using only one piece cleaning rods. Using a bore guide. Wet patching the barrel and letting it sit before using brushes. Pushing brushes from the chamber first. Patches only passed through once. If someone doesn't do these basic things the barrel will get damaged. The only break-in that occurs in firearms are the metal against metal moving parts- fire control parts, bolts, slides, rails, etc. During this time rough surfaces and excess finish are burnished away. Here is an article with Gale McMillan's views on barrel break-in that your friend might like to read. He is very well respected manufacturer of target rifles. How to Break-in a Barrel-- A Dissenting Point of View Barrel Break-In

[SymphonicX]

Then you agree that those who call for gun control can only supply the "lowest form of argument" because this is an analogy to their claim that the Founders only meant the 2nd amendment to apply to firearms available when the Bill of Rights was written. Using their "logic" the qualification should apply to all 10 amendments. Once again, these are examples of turning the gun control supporters arguments right back at them. They only can supply their "feelings", personal fear and ignorance as excuses to ban guns that they think are too small, too big, look too scary or shoot too fast. You obviously have not seen the research done by Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership in government imposed gun control leading to genocide and it is not just limited to Hitler. Your ignorance and refusual to recognize past history is irrational, immature and ill thought out. Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership Gun Control -- The KEY to GENOCIDE! "Gun Control is a Prelude to Totalitarian rule..." Raging Against Self Defense: A psychiatrist Examines The Anti-Gun Mentality dafuq did I just read? That seriously made no sense. Anyway isn't a gun that's twice the size of a helicopter, shoots 3000 rounds per second, and comes with a grenade attachment subject to more stringent control, in your eyes, to a 9mm handgun? Or are you saying that people against gun ownership cannot see the difference between a (John Travolta voice "Goddamn hand cannon" and a pissy potato gun? I'll get back to this later - there's a litany of madness here that needs addressing towards the end of the day rather than the start.

[AcesandEights]

Anyway isn't a gun that's twice the size of a helicopter, shoots 3000 rounds per second, and comes with a grenade attachment subject to more stringent control, in your eyes, to a 9mm handgun? Or are you saying that people against gun ownership cannot see the difference between a (John Travolta voice "Goddamn hand cannon" and a pissy potato gun? I agree. I think straw has hit an all time low on the commodities exchange for people to be buying it in so much bulk. It sounded as though if you're against private ownership of assault rifles or belt fed machine guns then you might as well want to outlaw butter knives and multistory buildings (stairs kill, after all!). It's not anything that's meant to be substantive or rational and the excuse is that so many people who are for gun control aren't rational themselves and are simply reacting out of fear, which is definitely a position that has some merit to it. However, fear and irrationality are present in spades on both sides of the debate and empty talking points aren't really going to ever move a dialogue on the topic forward.

[Sammich]

dafuq did I just read? That seriously made no sense. Anyway isn't a gun that's twice the size of a helicopter, shoots 3000 rounds per second, and comes with a grenade attachment subject to more stringent control, in your eyes, to a 9mm handgun? Or are you saying that people against gun ownership cannot see the difference between a (John Travolta voice "Goddamn hand cannon" and a pissy potato gun? I'll get back to this later - there's a litany of madness here that needs addressing towards the end of the day rather than the start. All I see above is a diarrheal flood of arrogant ignorance. What part of "those who call for gun control can only supply the "lowest form of argument" because this is an analogy to their claim that the Founders only meant the 2nd amendment to apply to firearms available when the Bill of Rights was written. Using their "logic" the qualification should apply to all 10 amendments." do you not understand? I would like to see proof from any of the Founders that supports the notion that certain parts of the Bill of Rights were time sensitive and others aren't. It is amusing that someone in the UK is trying to base their interpretation of 2nd Amendment by using wild exaggerations and movie quotes to support the tired old "goldilocks" gun control argument. Maybe I should argue about the absurdity of a country that worships and funds a monarchy that is as worthless as the Kardashians. I have been part of the "gun culture" for almost as long as you have been alive and have heard just about every excuse and argument against the 2nd Amendment from people around the world. None have ever shown any merit against "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." And yes, the firearms knowledge of people who support gun control is usually comprised solely of what they have seen in movies and video games. Everything with a pistol grip is an AK or M16. Every big handgun is an UZI or MAC 10. Penn and Teller Bullshit: Gun Control Part 1 Part 2 Part 3

[SymphonicX]

This is clearly getting out of hand....and I'm not sure you got my original post in the first place? I've got to walk through what you're saying carefully - cos really, let's not go on about it like nutters ok? I never brought up the Bill of Rights - I'm not even attesting to have even given it a glance...But you seem to be saying that the BoR isn't time specific and that's not a good argument to use for gun control.... Which means you're assuming that I side with the people who said that the BoR is time specific and not relevant in today's world...that is wrong entirely! You are forcing those words into my mouth by saying "then you agree that xxxxx" - opinions and viewpoints don't work on a default "if this is good, then this is bad" mentality - I mean....wtf? As I said, I never even glanced at the BoR - why would I? As you say, over here we have an "absurd monarchy" - again feel free to argue a point on that one..... because as with the first point you made, you'll be arguing about it alone! Again, I never brought up the monarchy, it's something I don't particularly give a shit about anyway. Why is this coming up? Look, I'm sorry if I caused offence - perhaps I should rephrase it. I believe that the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument is weak. I also believe that the sort of moral para-phrasing such as "well we have to ban (insert dangerous object here) because they also have the ability to kill people" is also VERY VERY weak. You used printing presses as an argument if I can remember - all I'm saying, Sammich, is that that's not a very strong or convincing argument. In fact it demonstrates the very "fear" that you so patronisingly accused me of...(which is absurd...I live in the UK, why do I give a shit if you own a gun?) You may have posted some links or videos that DO provide better arguments - but it's gone way too far off track for me to bother with anything you've posted here - it's getting to "'merica" territory. In short....(this is what I'm trying to say) What I do think pro and anti gun people need to be talking about though, is the culture of fear that permeates your media, with the threat of institutional racism, and separatism in your fragmented societies. Perhaps if you all reached some theories and conclusions about why your shit is so fucked up, you'd be more like Canada - gun friendly yet not torn apart by this argument. Finally, I can't resist a point about this one - perhaps the BoR being out-dated is a weak argument - you may indeed be correct. But if you believe it to hold complete relevance in this aspect, then why hasn't America already risen up against it's government countless times already? You've had many, many times to rise up and take back your country - but instead you just vote in another doucebag and demand it goes from bad to perfect in less than four years - and there you are, sending more 18 year old boys to get shot, spending millions to rape Central Africa and the Middle East of it's resources, and playing your own society off at a self destructive capitalist human pyramid which has already started to tumble....in a world where you're being sold 74 ounce cups of super-sized soda because they are telling you that you save money by eating yourselves to death and buying into every brand, shitty idea and panic story that they feed you on a daily basis? Why haven't you stormed the news buildings, and demanded they actually report the truth? Why haven't you separated the mad religious right from your government and said "wait a minute, this is completely fucking irrational and NOT representative of what our consitution is about"? I can't think of anything more unconsitutional, than the American government - so forgive me if I am sceptical that ANY of America has the balls to rise up to their government - they've been fucking you all for years. Apply all that to the UK, and you also have relevant points - so just in case you throw that whole paragraph back at me - be aware that I've also considered how that applies to us as well....it's just that the UK isn't going around with this sad pretence that we are somehow going to overthrow our government as soon as they piss us off enough - we'll probably break some shop windows, but that's about it! As for the rest about differing gun sizes and their availbility to people - I think Aces has said it perfectly.