Batman massacre: People killed at Dark Knight premiere

[bassman]

in addition, there are other factors that play into this also. Like how the liberal media is running an anti-gun/pro-Obamacare campaign using this shooting as the vehicle. You can clearly see this agenda within the programming on several news networks. Here we go again....

[Sammich]

Here we go again.... Here we go again.... Here are some examples. Lou Dobbs show on Fox Business, which tends not to have neocons hosts like Sean Vannity and Jim O'Reilly. Here is a news clip from the L.A. riots in 1992. Notice how the teleprompter reader Bree Walker and the other "reporters" are hysterically more concerned if the Korean store owner's guns are legal and registered than there are roving mobs are going around assaulting people and the city is burning down.

[krisvds]

What exactly is the real world? Everyone's perceptions of the real world are different. Can you tell me what it is that makes the way that you see the world the way that it really is? This is basically what is wrong with conspiracy theories and their believer's way of thinking in a nutshell right there. If you make extraordinary claims or, for instance, imply that your government has a secret agenda that includes having their own innocent citizens shot than it is not the task of the sceptical person who questions the validity of such a claim to prove why he is sceptical, it is you who have to prove your point. Never the other way around. I have been an atheist all my life and basically stopped having discussions on the subject with most religious people because countless times I heard: 'but can you prove God does not exist?' Of course not. Neither can I prove that at the moment there lives a tiny little man in my closet that becomes invisible everytime I open it ...

[Sammich]

This is basically what is wrong with conspiracy theories and their believer's way of thinking in a nutshell right there. If you make extraordinary claims or, for instance, imply that your government has a secret agenda that includes having their own innocent citizens shot than it is not the task of the sceptical person who questions the validity of such a claim to prove why he is sceptical, it is you who have to prove your point. Never the other way around. The U.S. government is more than capable of killing it's own citizens to acheive political and economic goals. To think that it is somehow the U.S. is immune from such actions is naive. False flag (aka Black Flag) operations are covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by other entities. - wikipedia Here are only a few that resulted in MILLIONS of deaths of Americans: Spanish-American war, 1898 - "Remember the Maine" was the rallying cry after the Battleship blew up in Havana and blamed on a Spanish mine. The USA declared war on Spain, and conquered Philippines, Guam and Cuba. It was later discovered that the explosion happened INSIDE of the ship caused by the boiler exploding or a bomb. World War I, 1914-1918 - The sinking of the Lusitania that the U.S. used to draw the country into the war. It was later discovered that the passenger ship was indeed carrying 6 million rounds of ammunition and explosives. World War 2 - There is now evidence that the U.S. had in fact decoded the Japanese encryption and knew months in advance that of the attack on Pearl Harbor, yet the information was witheld to draw the U.S. into the war. Vietnam War - The Gulf of Tonkin incident, which was used to draw the U.S. into the war, was later discovered to have never happened. Iraq War 2.0 - Hussein consulted with U.S. Ambassador April Glasbie concerning military action against Quwait's repeated oil drilling incursions into Iraqi territory. He was told "The U.S. has no opinion on inter-arab disputes". After Hussein invaded Quwait, the U.S. then said he was the new Hitler. Oh yes, and don't forget about the infamous "babies thrown out of incubators" a fabrication by the public relations firm Hill and Knowlton. Iraq War 2.0- WMD, nook-u-lar weapons and claimed links to 9-11 that never existed. Here are only a few U.S. government sponsored actions that show that they don't care citizens are killed: Poisoning of alcohol during Prohibition that resulted in an estimated 10,000 deaths 1950 "Simulated" biological warfare attack by Navy aircraft spraying serratia marcescens bacteria over San Francisco resulted numerous cases of pneumonia and at least 1 death. 1956 and 1957 U.S. Army releases millions of infected mosquitos in Savanah, Georgia and Avon Park, Florida to test the transmission of dengue fever and yellow fever. Hundreds contracted illnesses and several died. There are more listed here: Unethical human experimentation in the United States HISTORY OF SECRET EXPERIMENTATION ON UNITED STATES CITIZENS No doubt many other such operations have taken place until this day, but are still hidden under the guise of "national security".

[babomb]

This is basically what is wrong with conspiracy theories and their believer's way of thinking in a nutshell right there. If you make extraordinary claims or, for instance, imply that your government has a secret agenda that includes having their own innocent citizens shot than it is not the task of the sceptical person who questions the validity of such a claim to prove why he is sceptical, it is you who have to prove your point. Never the other way around. That's not what I asked at all. I was responding to his claim that my views are not based in the "real world". I don't expect, nor did I ask anyone to prove that this or any other event that's been discussed here is, or is not on the level. I simply asked bassman what makes his reality more valid than mine. I think it's a fair question. I think if someone outright claims, or even implies that someone elses observations are being made in error, that they should be expected to at the least explain why they think that. Otherwise the assertion is as empty as they accuse the opposition's claims to be. No? Bassman's general point of view is that my own point of view is based on erroneous claims and distorted assumptions that are rooted in his own assumption that I spend too much time reading things on the internet. Why is it also assumed to be a failure of logic for me to ask him to explain why he thinks that? I'm not asking him to prove that this shooting is in fact not a false flag event. I wouldn't ask that of anyone. Because I know they can't prove it, just like I can't prove otherwise. But it seems a bit unfair that he should be allowed to devalue my ideas and opinions without even being expected to provide a reason. But that i'm also in the wrong for asking him to explain why he thinks that? I never once said anything about expecting him to prove me wrong on anything, that was another assumption that was jumped to rather quickly. And on top of all that, there IS in fact evidence to support the idea that elements of our government don't value the lives of the citizens. That itself is all that's needed to develop an outlook on things based on lack of trust, which puts everything related to it in question. But then you have people who would rather try to devalue those ideas and belittle the people who hold them, rather than offer up anything constructive to counter those ideas. And when confronted on it, avoid any bit of responsibility by saying: it is not the task of the sceptical person who questions the validity of such a claim to prove why he is sceptical, it is you who have to prove your point. That holds true to the media regarding the official story about such events also. If I'm skeptical of someone elses thoughts and ideas I give reason. Not because I HAVE TO , but because it's the decent thing to do. And when someone hides behind such a disclaimer, it's out of convenience not principle. The fact of the matter is that we have a government that lies to us constantly, our media is owned by corporate heathens that see the people as mere peasants. Honesty and trust have no value anymore, so when people want to know the truth they're left to their own devices to find it. Everyone seems to have a political agenda so everything is spun according to that agenda. Any truth that exists is shrouded in layer upon layer of bullshit and disinformation. This is the reality of every American, whether they like it or not, and whether they believe it or not. So it should come as no surprise to anyone that given these undeniable circumstances that people form their own ideas regarding the truth. Nobody knows what to believe anymore. So people explore all possibilities because to do otherwise does you a disservice. With things like the Patriot Act, that allow the government to do pretty much whatever they want out of the prying eyes of the media and the people, it's hard to know what the fuck is going on in this country. So when there's a good possibility that our own government killed 3,000 of it's own citizens in a false flag terrorist act, it's not that much of a stretch to think that it's possible for it to have happened again in the form of a lone gunman attack on a theater killing 12. Especially when certain political interests stand to gain from the recourse of such an act. So I'm not here telling anyone that I have proof that this is in fact a false flag event or that I absolutely believe it to be , I never once said that I have any proof or made the positive claim that I believe this to be the way it is. I'm saying that with this country in such a sad state that it's not possible to rule that out as a possibility. And when someone disputes that as a possibility I would like to know what brings them to that conclusion. When I asked bassman what leads him to believe what he does, I asked out of genuine interest. Not to make a point out of anything or to demand he show evidence for his opinion. I would really like to know how someone can look at this country and not be suspicious of everything.

[AcesandEights]

I can't help but weep for those of you who think any country is above lying and skulduggery to further its own twisted agendas. Look no further than recent developments:   Now tell me how you will ever be able to sleep tonight!

[Sammich]

And on top of all that, there IS in fact evidence to support the idea that elements of our government don't value the lives of the citizens. That itself is all that's needed to develop an outlook on things based on lack of trust, which puts everything related to it in question. But then you have people who would rather try to devalue those ideas and belittle the people who hold them, rather than offer up anything constructive to counter those ideas. And when confronted on it, avoid any bit of responsibility by saying: That holds true to the media regarding the official story about such events also. If I'm skeptical of someone elses thoughts and ideas I give reason. Not because I HAVE TO , but because it's the decent thing to do. And when someone hides behind such a disclaimer, it's out of convenience not principle. The fact of the matter is that we have a government that lies to us constantly, our media is owned by corporate heathens that see the people as mere peasants. Honesty and trust have no value anymore, so when people want to know the truth they're left to their own devices to find it. Everyone seems to have a political agenda so everything is spun according to that agenda. Any truth that exists is shrouded in layer upon layer of bullshit and disinformation. This is the reality of every American, whether they like it or not, and whether they believe it or not. So it should come as no surprise to anyone that given these undeniable circumstances that people form their own ideas regarding the truth. Nobody knows what to believe anymore. So people explore all possibilities because to do otherwise does you a disservice. With things like the Patriot Act, that allow the government to do pretty much whatever they want out of the prying eyes of the media and the people, it's hard to know what the fuck is going on in this country. So when there's a good possibility that our own government killed 3,000 of it's own citizens in a false flag terrorist act, it's not that much of a stretch to think that it's possible for it to have happened again in the form of a lone gunman attack on a theater killing 12. Especially when certain political interests stand to gain from the recourse of such an act. So I'm not here telling anyone that I have proof that this is in fact a false flag event or that I absolutely believe it to be , I never once said that I have any proof or made the positive claim that I believe this to be the way it is. I'm saying that with this country in such a sad state that it's not possible to rule that out as a possibility. And when someone disputes that as a possibility I would like to know what brings them to that conclusion. It's also notable that when I asked bassman what leads him to believe what he does, that I asked out of genuine interest. While his comments leading up to that were based solely on contempt for others ideas, aimed at preventing a specific person from expressing their own ideas, and his comments after were for the specific purpose of devaluing my ideas and belittling me for holding them as well as belittling other members who might agree. Yes, I take offense to that sort of arrogance especially when nothing has been done to provoke it! And I'll always challenge efforts to prevent people from expressing their own ideas and opinions. Much of the public have come to completely distrust anything the government does following the economic crisis of 2008. Numerous investigators, even with backgrounds from the Savings and Loan crash, have evidence that hundreds of thousands of counts of fraud took place at all levels just in regards to mortgage backed securities. Have there been any arrests or prosecutions? No. John Corzine of MF Global "misplaces" $1.2 billion and he gets his ass kissed at a congression hearing into the matter. The latest is this LIBOR fraud that has roots in big financial firms in the UK and the U.S., yet again no arrests. It shows that there no longer is equal protection under the law. The system of justice has become a 2 tiered system where those who make large "campaign contributions" (i.e. bribes) or are the armed mercenaries that protect those in power routinely skate free with a slap on the wrist. A regular peon who forgets to pay their parking tickets will get thrown in jail. Then there is the Dept of Homeland Security making huge purchases of ammunition the last 3 years. Preparing for Civil War: Chart Shows DHS Has Bought Hundreds of Millions of Rounds of Ammo Since 2009 In the last six months many articles and reports have been written that detailed the hundreds of millions of rounds of ammunition that the Department of Homeland Security has purchased since Obama took office in 2009. This astonishing amount of purchased ammunition has lead many to speculate and believe that homeland security is actively preparing for what they believe will be a bloody and extremely violent American uprising and or civil war. When you couple this large scale buildup of ammo with bulletproof checkpoints, law enforcement bulletins labeling everyday Americans as possible terrorists, and a series of videos that painted middle class Americans as the new Al Qaeda you can clearly see that at least portions of DHS are planning for some sort of violent confrontation with the American people. Why is the Department of Homeland Security buying ammo as if they are about to go to war if that is not their exact plan? It is also important to consider the fact that Obama has given DHS extraordinary powers in the event of an emergency regardless whether or not they created it in the first place. Sadly, there is little to nothing standing in the way from rogue agents carrying out a false flag which in turn would give the entire agency dictator like powers, turning America into a full fledged Fascist police state. When you have a government that has repeatedly ignored the Constitution and legalized without trial the spying on, indefinite detention and assassination of U.S. citizens at home and abroad is it any wonder why so many people have come to not believe anything coming out of Washington D.C.? There is no conspiracy theory to this. This is fact.

[strayrider]

I cannot recall anyone suggesting this. The call is for tighter regulations, which is still withing the spirit of the actual document. "A well regulated militia..." Clearly the regulations which are at play at the moment aren't working, or at least aren't working enough to help prevent these type of massacres and it comes down to a matter of regulation, not banning, as some people would like to suggest. Most people who would agree with tighter regulation on guns don't want to see banning. They want to see guns not falling into the hands of those who would use them for nefarious purposes. The "Yall ain'tn takin ur gunnns!!!" approach is not helpful in any situation and comes across as completely careless and oblivious to incidents like these. In terms of the 2nd Amendment the phrase "well regulated militia" is intended to indicate a body of irregular troops that are prepared for military service in support of regular armed forces. In addition, the militia act as a deterrence to government tyranny. "Well regulated" should be read as: well led, well trained, or well versed in the use of arms. The "regulated" portion of the phrase has nothing to do with gun control laws. http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm

[Sammich]

It is a huge mistake to think that the people who want "tighter regulation", "reasonable restrictions", or "common sense gun laws" are not seeking an outright or incremental and eventual ban on private ownership of firearms. It already has happened in New York. First there was the "reasonable" registration of firearms. Then there was the passage of the Sullivan Act which it made it illegal to own guns without a license, which was only issued to the rich and those with political connections. The gun registration list was then used for go door to door confiscation for unlicensed firearms. De facto gun ban. "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them -- Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in -- I would have done it." - Sen. Dianne Feinstein, in a 60 Minutes Interview “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” To let the assault weapons ban expire just as we are realizing its benefits would be a major setback in the success we’ve had in reducing crime over the last decade. The fact of the matter is that there is no legitimate use for these weapons. - Senator Charles Schumer "We can and must mitigate gun violence through commonsense restrictions on high-capacity magazines and military-style weapons.” - Congresswoman Nita Lowey "Large magazines, assault weapons do not need to be on the streets for the ordinary citizen. They are meant for the military," Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy The weapons' [semi-automatic rifles] menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons." - Josh Sugarmann, Executive Director Violence Policy Center The Brady Campaign supports banning military-style semi-automatic assault weapons along with high-capacity ammunition magazines. These dangerous weapons have no sporting or civilian use. Their combat features are appropriate to military, not civilian, contexts. - Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence The ADL (Anti-Defamation League) supported the District of Columbia before the US Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller which argued that the city's ban on the possession of handguns and any functional firearms, even for self-defense in the home is not prohibited by the Second Amendment. - Anti-Defamation League, Wikipedia entry Today we call on the U.S. Congress to pass a federal assault weapons ban modeled on California's effective law that would ban these weapons once and for all. - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, NATIONAL GUN VIOLENCE PREVENTION ORGANIZATIONS CALL FOR EFFECTIVE FEDERAL ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN IN WAKE OF ALABAMA RAMPAGE SHOOTING LEAVING 11 DEAD, INCLUDING SHOOTER “I believe the people should have the right to bear arms, but I don’t believe that we have to have assault weapons as part of our personal arsenal. - Mitt "Mittens the human etch-a-sketch flip-flop" Romney, 2004 after signing a permanent assault weapons ban in Massachusetts.

[krisvds]

@ babomb & Samich didn't mean to belittle you guys. So no offense intended by my post on scepticism. It's just that some of the claims you guys make are so over the top (the government could be involved in the recent shooting to further a political agenda) they are, to me, unbelievable. I'm a sceptical person which basically means that I can't bring myself to believe in anything without some independent scientific proof that in itself is able to stand up to outside criticism. That's all.

[Sammich]

@ babomb & Samich didn't mean to belittle you guys. So no offense intended by my post on scepticism. It's just that some of the claims you guys make are so over the top (the government could be involved in the recent shooting to further a political agenda) they are, to me, unbelievable. I'm a sceptical person which basically means that I can't bring myself to believe in anything without some independent scientific proof that in itself is able to stand up to outside criticism. That's all. No offense taken. The government, the media and big corporations here have become so corrupt and intertwined that it is impossible to believe anything they say. If you moved to the U.S., I would say within 2 years after witnessing firsthand the b.s. that goes on you too would end up a hardcore cynic of this government .

[SymphonicX]

No offense taken. The government, the media and big corporations here have become so corrupt and intertwined that it is impossible to believe anything they say. If you moved to the U.S., I would say within 2 years after witnessing firsthand the b.s. that goes on you too would end up a hardcore cynic of this government . Why haven't you all done something about it then? You've got fucking guns, for God's sake!!!

[babomb]

@ babomb & Samich didn't mean to belittle you guys. So no offense intended by my post on scepticism. It's just that some of the claims you guys make are so over the top (the government could be involved in the recent shooting to further a political agenda) they are, to me, unbelievable. I'm a sceptical person which basically means that I can't bring myself to believe in anything without some independent scientific proof that in itself is able to stand up to outside criticism. That's all. Well you must only hear what you want to hear. Because nobody actually made that positive claim. We only hold that as a real possibility. I also provided proof that the USGOV actually engaged in behavior modification and mind control programs in the past. Do you dismiss this evidence completely and conveniently? This is not only a matter of public record, it's been admitted by our own government as well as the canadian government. A page or 2 back I posted the official goals of this program. None of you "skeptics" even commented on it. Do you completely dismiss it or not believe that it was actually a real program. I fully understand that just the existence of this program doesn't mean that it's the cause of active shooter events. However, if they engaged in such unethical and questionable programs in the past, why would anyone think they've stopped? Especially when people that were involved in that program have said that it continued under a different name. Answer this for me-9/11, official story or inside job? during 9/11 they were conducting a simulation to prepare people for an event where planes were hijacked and slammed into buildings. This happened again in the UK during the subway attack. And again on the same day that the theater shooting occured. Lou pointed this out a few pages back before bassman exerted his influence to stop him. Nobody is claiming to have proof of any of this. If there was proof it wouldn't be a conspiracy, it would be a fact. All we've been saying is that our government engages in such questionable activities, and lies to us so regularly that it's difficult to know what to believe. Why haven't you all done something about it then? You've got fucking guns, for God's sake!!! Ya know, when all this 1st started I didn't understand why some other US members were hostile in regard to topics like this here. I thought they were just touchy about the topic. But I fully understand now! It's because they know that some of you guys are just disrespectful smart ass little punks.

[krisvds]

Answer this for me-9/11, official story or inside job? Here's some interesting material I use when teaching about conspiracy theories to my students. In fact I use the 9/11 inside job conspiracy as a casus to compare how science uses evidence/proof, in contrast to pseudo-science. http://youtube.com/watch?v=tacYjsS-g6k http://youtube.com/watch?v=qLShZOvxVe4 http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11/ and of course this: http://screwloosechange.blogspot.be/ This quote I found quite enlightening in regards to this thread. It was taken from Skeptic.com's article linked above: The American government deceived its citizens about the real human costs of Vietnam, and resorted to military tactics that were ethically questionable even by the standards of war. The revelations of Watergate, the Iran-Contra scandal, and other nefarious schemes great and small have understandably eroded public confidence in government. Couple that with an administration, that took office after the most controversial presidential election in more than a century, and one that backed out of international agreements such as the Kyoto Protocol, misled citizens about the science of global warming and stem cell research, initiated a war in Iraq based on unsupportable “intelligence” about weapons of mass destruction, and failed to respond in adequately to the effects of a hurricanes in the Gulf Coast, and you have strong motivations for suspicion.40 (Suffice it to say, admiration for George W. Bush is not my motivation for defending him against the claims of conspiracy theorists). However, there are a few things to be said about suspicion. First, there is the simple philosophical point that suspicion alone demonstrates nothing — any theory needs evidence in its favor if it is to be taken seriously. Second, the mistakes made by our government in the past are qualitatively different from a conscious decision to kill thousands of its own citizens in order to justify the oppression of others. Most importantly, there is the fact that most of what we know about the bad decisions made by our government is only knowable due to the relative transparency with which our government operates, and the freedom to disseminate and discuss this information.

[SymphonicX]

Ya know, when all this 1st started I didn't understand why some other US members were hostile in regard to topics like this here. I thought they were just touchy about the topic. But I fully understand now! It's because they know that some of you guys are just disrespectful smart ass little punks. Wait a minute...hold the fucking phone. Who the fuck are you to call me anything? It was a F U C K I N G joke. Did you not see the smilies? The exclaimation marks? FFS. Do you think I was aiming for a response? Are you really, really that completely stupid? God damnit. For those too stupid to understand, it was a joke. Not meant in seriousness nor to be used as an excuse to go beating your fucking chests. Jesus H Christ I can't believe people sometimes. -- -------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 PM ---------- One thing I've come to learn after years of this and other nameless boards... Whatever you do, don't get involved in a discussion on American politics/religion/gun culture. Why? Because as a non-american, you just cannot fucking reach people. Offer an observation? Shot down. Offer a joke? Shot down. Offer anything that isn't complimentary bleating about "the greatest nation on Earth" and suddenly you're akin to Hitler. But if the UK has a riot, or a murder, or WHATEVER.....it's a different story. -- -------- Post added at 06:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ---------- Twin towers was an inside job, it was holograms, Michael Jackson isn't dead, Angels are real, Jesus walked the ground of America as per your Presidential candidates, James Holmes was paid by the CIA, Obama is Muslim/communist/socialist/terrorist/Kenyan-ist, area 51 contains alien life, they killed JFK, moon landings never happened. Probably aiming the banning reticule over my head here but I literally don't give a fuck. Most of you are top-dogs, amazing people from what I can tell. But some of you are complete fucktards. Go fuck yourselves.