And it begins: Obama Renews Push to Reduce Gun Violence

[babomb]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...dern-firearms/ Hope this link works. Brief synopsis is Illinois senate president is calling for a ban on all guns. And gun owners would have to turn them into the State Police. If this is in fact true it would illustrate the exact politician Babomb and others have expressed concern over. I live in IL!! This is basically the culmination of everything I've been talking about. I saw something about this on facebook earlier today. I feel sick to my stomach right now. It figures that this would start in IL. This is what I've been talking about. They're taking full advantage of these firearms related incidents. They're not happy with reasonable gun laws. They're going for all out disarmament. Like I've been saying, they don't care about the constitution, they're instituting a system where the state controls everything we do. And there's alot of citizens that support this kind of shit. They have no idea what they're actually supporting. They think it's just about guns. In reality it's all about control, and they just don't/won't see it for what it is. - - - Updated - - - In all of ypur posts I read a certain, and in my case, shared concern on how big the influence of powerful multinationals is getting in local politics and basic law-making. The tax system in Belgium for instance was reorganised in such a way that the bigger corporations pay less than 1% taxes, while simple employees will see close to one third of their monthly wages go to social security and so on. A system I believe in as long as everyone contributes in a fair and equal way. That's basically how it is here too. Like you say, if everyone contributes it's not that bad. But here in the US there's a large percentage of people that don't contribute. This government does nothing to fix it or discourage it. A marriage of greedy neoliberal economics and politics leads to less freedom. This 'collective' of corporations, banks, and government as you call it. But the arms industry means big business. Wont the American arms lobby do everything they can to protect their best interests? Wont concerns over how much money is being made, how many people are working for the industry and so on outweigh any concerns over personal freedom or security. The argument that private gun ownership wil hold back this evolution towards a more tiranical government is to me, academic. It just wont stop these people. The occupy movement is far more worrying for these cold hearted bastards than gun ownership because it could become a global movement (in many ways it is). No need for guns to get them on their knees. Real power is in your wallet. Problem is that they've now designated areas that people aren't allowed to assemble in. And they're the exact areas that you would want to protest at. Government buildings, public events like sports games, anywhere that politicians and other officials are present and secret service is providing security. They can also arbitrarily declare an area as a zone where public assembly is not legal. The penalty for protesting in one of these areas that are off limits is a federal offense that can carry up to a ten year incarceration. You always talk of Romney and Obama as if they were essentially the same. Are their standpoints in this debate the same? I'm asking out of pure curiosity (not a rethorical question). Would Romney walk the same path towards stricter gun control? Do these two politicians think the same on social security? Employment, Taxes? Surely there must be some basic ideological differences leading to different views in politics? In Europe the press often presents the States as a divided nation. On a political and a social level. Ideas on gun ownership and social security are two prime examples.

[strayrider]

Sorry to respond to only one point from your fair and candid response, but I thought it beauifully highlighted our different views on this matter. S'okay. These point/counter point debates can become long-winded and hard to follow. The idea of people going out in record numbers, to buy guns, many of which are assault rifles, terrifies me. In reality, is a single one of these rifles really even required? Really? What purpose do they really serve other than to fulfill, a somewhat greedy I wan' it! It does again come across as paranoid... I need an assault rifle... cos? You have no need to be terrified. The guns are over here, not over there. In reality, yes, these guns are required. I'll venture that there might be some greed involved in that certain people may simply be buying the guns now in hopes of selling them later for a profit; however, I cannot say that every (or even most) gun purchase(s) is (are) a case of "I want it!" greed and neither can you. It is kind of disheartening to me that you seem to be of the opinion that Americans...ALL Americans...are driven by greed and nothing else. This is a stereotype, of course, and I really don't know where to lay the blame for it. As for paranoid: I need a semi-automatic rifle for the reasons that I have detailed in previous posts. If you do not understand the concept; then you do not understand. Fair 'nuff. Vaste numbers of more guns in circulation, some of extremely high power, is good because? I think this just highlights beautifully our cultural differences towards guns... It is neither bad nor good. It simply is. Plus, these guns are not in "circulation". Most (but not all) of them end up in the hands of responsible people who will utilize in the in the proper way (e.g., deterrent against asshole politicians, home/personal defense, sporting purposes, etc.). -stray-

[babomb]

It is kind of disheartening to me that you seem to be of the opinion that Americans...ALL Americans...are driven by greed and nothing else. This is a stereotype, of course, and I really don't know where to lay the blame for it. It's because that's how the media portrays Americans. For most people from around the world, their ideas about America are based on media exposure. Which is stuff like MTV, the Kardashians, the various news agencies, political commentary by idiot celebrities, dramatic fictional and reality(which is anything but) based TV shows and politicians. It's important to note that this media based view of America does not represent real Americans. These are high profile Americans that lead a lifestyle that's nothing like the lives of average Americans. You see the evidence that this is largely the way Americans are viewed in the views expressed by people from abroad in threads like this. It's been difficult in this thread to get across the point that our freedoms and constitutional rights are constantly under attack. Because this isn't something that the media makes any attempt to display. There's simply no way to make people understand the gravity of the situation over here without them being here to see it. Someone couldn't even come here for a visit and understand it. They'd have to come here and stay with an average working class family for an extended period, and have that family open up their lives to them. Average working class people are the heart of America. And their day to day lives, and the problems they face aren't accurately depicted on TV. TV shows and movies glamorize certain aspects of America. I can't speak for anyone else on this board, but there's nothing glamorous about my day to day life. I don't have the luxury of having things just because I want them. My lifestyle bears no resemblance to that of the Kardashians, One Tree Hill, The Hills, Runs House, things aren't like they were in shows like Growing Pains, Charles In Charge, or any of the various 80's movies. People may not even be aware of how the media has shaped their view of America. Because obviously any intelligent adult would understand that things aren't like they show on TV. But the media is the business of sensationalism. So what others see in the media represents an extremely small percentage of America. Most Americans are drowning in job stress and day to day difficulties of all sorts. But if your view is based on what the media shows, you'd assume that Americans don't have real problems, they have problems that are all self created and based on selfish wants that aren't being fulfilled.

[Neil]

^^ hard to underestimate American's love affair for the gun though isn't it? - There Are 15,000 More Gun Stores In America Than Grocery Stores http://www.businessinsider.com/more-...#ixzz2H2hF0MCh

[Danny]

It is kind of disheartening to me that you seem to be of the opinion that Americans...ALL Americans...are driven by greed and nothing else. This is a stereotype, of course, and I really don't know where to lay the blame for it. Its mostly the media. Americans are portrayed in the media as a nation of greedy, self centred, xenophobic fundamentalist Christian rednecks who view education as something to scorn and hate or up their own ass soccer moms who want the world wrapped in cotton wool and everything to be sue worthy. Both stereotypes sold as gun loving dullards who think america is the be all end all utpoia all other countries adore and aspire to be. Of course i know thats patently bullshit as much as all english people talking with a plumb in their mouth and enjoying high tea after a game of critic and damning the poor. Trouble is America dont help itself by exporting names like kim kardashian or paris hilton but names like carl sagan or ,hell, to younger people, martin luther king jr remain obscure oddities barely referenced and never a subject or note. Still i imagine its much the same in reverse with Englands exports being bloody X factor winners or piers morgan...

[babomb]

^^ hard to underestimate American's love affair for the gun though isn't it? - There Are 15,000 More Gun Stores In America Than Grocery Stores http://www.businessinsider.com/more-...#ixzz2H2hF0MCh Well, I don't think it's as prevalent as you think it is. I don't know anyone who fits that description. Most people I know own guns of some sort. But none of them seem to be in a love affair with them. And the strange thing is that the people that you're talking about, the guys with bumper stickers and a dozen or more guns, THOSE are the people that are the least likely to ever be involved in a gun related death or crime. They're the ones that are trained with them, that know how to handle them, have the most respect for them. They also know that the quickest way to lose the right to own them is to be stupid with them. They really value them, and don't want to lose them. Any gun owner knows that a gun is the most dangerous in the hands of people who fear them and see them as death machines, and those who have no experience with them. As to there being 15,000 more gun stores than grocery stores, I'm not sure how true that is. But you also have to take into consideration the nature of those businesses. Do wal-marts count? Because most wal-marts sell groceries and guns. Many large chain stores that sell guns are large sporting good stores. So they aren't strictly gun stores. I'm sure you have it pictured differently, where there's just all these stores that are just there to sell guns, and they outnumber grocery stores. With just every type of gun you can imagine, and you can see guys walking out with assault rifles slung over their shoulder, anti-tank rockets and grenade launchers. Guys with camo face paint on, with knives strapped to their arms and bandoleers criss crossed over their chests, hiding behind cars and moving stealthily to avoid detection. Guys driving monster trucks with gun bumper stickers with phrases relating to mass murder and hoarding ammunition. I think if you were to spend any time around people that are involved in the gun culture here, you'd quickly find that it isn't at all the way you imagine it. People that are really into guns aren't war mongers, they aren't violent dangerous people. They're enthusiasts, like car enthusiasts, or computer enthusiasts. If you walk into a computer enthusiasts basement, you'd see multiple computers. So someone who knows nothing about computers would ask themselves why this person needs 8 different computers. But when you get down to it, 1 computer is possibly a home media server, another is a gaming rig, another might be for graphic design/CAD, a couple might be cheap white box machines that are for kids so they don't damage one of the more expensive machines that has a specific purpose. Others are just older machines that might only have nostalgic worth and are just there as display items because this person has spent time collecting them, and configuring them, so they're proud of them. Same with guns. You don't know much about guns, so when you see someones collection you just see several guns that look very similar and wonder why that person would need 8 guns. But 1 might be a simple AR15 that's 15 years old, and another might be a newer AR15 that has a completely different receiver or barrel, maybe it's chambered for a completely different round. Maybe this person intends to sell a couple off but just hasn't had the time, or maybe it's sentimental value because of where he bought it or how he got it that makes him keep it, or maybe he just put alot more money into it than he'll ever get for it on a resale. The fact is that you don't know anything about guns except that they kill people. And based on that single fact that you know about them, you think that you're qualified to say that someone only needs 1, or that this person doesn't need 1 at all, and why should this person be allowed to own 6 that are displayed on his wall. In your mind, they have a single solitary purpose. And owning 1 is as good as owning 10. Because they're just death machines, and the more a person owns the more likely it is that someone will die by 1 of them. Frankly, it's an ignorant position to take on the matter. And I know you think it's a righteous ignorance, but ignorance is ignorance. There seems to be this insidious idea bubbling to the surface today, that America has had too much freedom for too long, and it's bad for us and for the rest of the world. It's a steaming pile of dogshit.

[strayrider]

Dig it. The media. That must be why I am so uniformed concerning certain viewpoints. I do not watch television. I work too much to waste time with that bullshit. As for "love affair with guns". Speaking only for myself...bullshit. I love my family. I love my friends. I love my cats. I love my nation and the God of my understanding. I try my best to love people in general. Some deserve this expenditure of emotion; some do not. Firearms are simple tools that serve a variety of functions and they do not deserve my love. Sort of like my telescope...well, I do feel kind of affectionate toward the "scope". Focusing in on Jupiter, binary stars, and Messier objects makes my l'il heart go "pitter-patter". -stray- Oh and as for gun stores outnumbering grocery stores? Could this be the result of the big conglomerates in the grocery industry running the little mom and pop places out of business? I do not not know the answer. Honestly, I do not care.

[babomb]

Its mostly the media. Americans are portrayed in the media as a nation of greedy, self centred, xenophobic fundamentalist Christian rednecks who view education as something to scorn and hate or up their own ass soccer moms who want the world wrapped in cotton wool and everything to be sue worthy. Both stereotypes sold as gun loving dullards who think america is the be all end all utpoia all other countries adore and aspire to be. Of course i know thats patently bullshit as much as all english people talking with a plumb in their mouth and enjoying high tea after a game of critic and damning the poor. Trouble is America dont help itself by exporting names like kim kardashian or paris hilton but names like carl sagan or ,hell, to younger people, martin luther king jr remain obscure oddities barely referenced and never a subject or note. Still i imagine its much the same in reverse with Englands exports being bloody X factor winners or piers morgan... And this is a big problem, really. You have the media reporting on things, according to their own agenda. The liberal media, which seems to be the most prevalent, always seems to have a statist view on things. So their spin on things is always that the state knows what's best, as long as the state is democrat controlled, and those who oppose are backwater hicks who's view on things is backward and selfish. Or, those who oppose do so for personal selfish reasons such as religion. Which is the case with the education argument. It comes back to this idea that liberty is a selfish value. Which seems to be an idea that's being promoted alot these days. It's not that Christians or rednecks view education as something to scorn or hate. It's that they don't like the idea of their children having the values of the state forced on them. I'm not religious myself. But I support freedom of religion. Many Christians choose to do home schooling. And the state seems to want to intrude on that at any opportunity, because the state doesn't like anything being outside of their control. The state is uncomfortable with the Christian value system because they aren't the authority on it. But they feel they can regain some of that control through propaganda, and controlling the popular opinion on Christian's and their value system. Which is why Christians are portrayed as backwater hicks that scorn and hate education. It's total media manipulation. It's done so that people become used to the idea that the state is the authority on everything. People who reject the state as total authority, those are the people who have a problem with things like taxation without representation, they value individual liberty as opposed to a collectivist view, which means they're people who will stand up to the state. And to the state, that's unacceptable. This comes back to the issue of Tyranny. Which is what the 2nd amendment is there to protect us from. Which is why the 2nd amendment is under attack. Even though citizens with guns don't pose a large threat to the authority of the state, they are still a thorn in their side. Which is really what the gun control debate is truly about. Control, not safety.

[Danny]

Oh lord. So CNN had someone on to debate the topic of gun control with peirs morgan. Do they get someone from like the NRA? or ,i dont know, a cop? nope. they get ALEX FUCKING JONES. He ranted for ten minutes straight with no pause for breath calling peirs morgan a "redcoat hatchet man for the new world order", took the piss out of his accent and generally acted like a psychopath then ended with "by the way ive got 50 guns myself". -and of course all the comments on european websites? "well thats a typical american for you" seriously. alex jones? did they expect a rational debate or what?

[Staredge]

^^ hard to underestimate American's love affair for the gun though isn't it? - There Are 15,000 More Gun Stores In America Than Grocery Stores http://www.businessinsider.com/more-...#ixzz2H2hF0MCh Bullshit. This is part of the problem. 61000 of the "licensed firearms dealers" are collectors. IIRC, you need the FFL to own full-auto weapons (yes, there are people who own them privately. Operating tanks and cannons as well), certainly to trade them. I would guess that an overwhelming majority of them do NOT actively sell guns. They aren't dealers......but it sure makes for a good headline, doesn't it? As was said before.....does every Walmart and Kmart that sells guns also have to have an FFL, or just the corporate office? If so, that reduces the numbers as well. (not to mention the mom and pop places out west that sell guns AND butter) I love statistics....they can say whatever you want them too.

[babomb]

Oh lord. So CNN had someone on to debate the topic of gun control with peirs morgan. Do they get someone from like the NRA? or ,i dont know, a cop? nope. they get ALEX F*CKING JONES. He ranted for ten minutes straight with no pause for breath calling peirs morgan a "redcoat hatchet man for the new world order", took the piss out of his accent and generally acted like a psychopath then ended with "by the way ive got 50 guns myself". -and of course all the comments on european websites? "well thats a typical american for you" seriously. alex jones? did they expect a rational debate or what? That's because Alex Jones was the one that started the petition to deport Peirs Morgan. It was a well thought out move on the part of the liberal media. They knew how Alex Jones was gonna act, and they planned it out so that they could use that as fuel for the anti-gun fire. The disturbing part was that after Alex did his whole bit, they brought Allen Dershowitz on. He and peirs went on about Alex, and then made the case that Alex's other beliefs made him unfit to be a gun owner. Then Jon Stewart continued that idea tonight on the daily show. And this is a major new development in the gun control debate. And shows what I've been saying about the ways that the media shapes ideas about things. What they're saying is that people who believe that the 2nd amendment is there to protect the people from a tyrannical government are paranoid crackpots that are so unhinged that they shouldn't be allowed to own guns in the 1st place. Making the case that peoples political beliefs alone should be basis for losing constitutional rights. This is an extremely disturbing thing! This not only strikes a blow to the 2nd amendment. It also alienates anyone who's political ideas are outside of the status quo. This is not accidental. This is a very deliberate act on the part of the American propaganda machine. This sets the stage to make it much easier to phase out the constitution. This makes it unpopular to be protective over the constitution, and paints those who are protective over it in a bad light. Meanwhile, last Friday there was a bill introduced to repeal the 22nd amendment, which would abolish term limits on the Presidency. http://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-...-resolution/15 So it seems that as the constitution is being attacked more and more aggressively by our government, that there's a media campaign being waged that aims to make crackpots and public enemies of those who want to protect it!? I find it hard to believe that any outsider could look at the US government and think that they just want to make the country a better place to live for the citizens. Maybe if this government were more respectful of the constitution, and stopped trying to make it obsolete, people wouldn't be so paranoid about their rights being taken away. And wouldn't feel the need to cling to guns to protect themselves from a government that seems hell bent on destroying the constitution. The situation is that this government has been hijacked by powerful corporations. And the constitution is a hindrance to their goals. - - - Updated - - -

[Publius]

^^ hard to underestimate American's love affair for the gun though isn't it? - There Are 15,000 More Gun Stores In America Than Grocery Stores http://www.businessinsider.com/more-...#ixzz2H2hF0MCh It's hard to imagine how they could have made that statistic MORE misleading. The number of "grocery stores" comes from a Food Marketing Institute fact page listing only the number of supermarkets with more than $2 million per year in revenue. There are few gun stores as big as any one of those 36k supermarkets. The number of "gun stores" includes every small mom and pop gun store in the country, plus many thousands of individuals whose "store" is their home address, and hold a firearms dealer license only because they want to engage in one or two transactions per year that require a dealer license.

[SBEADER]

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[Mike70]

I'm more worried about the fact that the govt. can now seize your property at the border during re-entry to the US including your computer, money, electronic devices, etc. without probable cause, without any sort of suspicion of criminal activity, with zero reason at all. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25458533 if you voted for Obama you need to be utterly f*cking ashamed of yourself.

[SBEADER]

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