TWD 3x13 "Arrow on the Doorpost" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Moon Knight]

Agreed. I liked the episode quite a bit myself. Although it was very well played and constructed, it was, after all, a slow "setup" episode for what's to come. So it didn't have any of the grit that captivates us. But it was necessary. There'd be no way to convey all the information in this episode in between a bunch of action sequences and hardcore kill scenes. I agree with whoever said earlier that it seemed a bit disjointed. Sort of out of continuity. We were never made aware of any meeting to take place. We were just expecting that the shit would hit the fan in a big way at any time. And due to the fact that this show airs on a normal network channel as opposed to a premium channel, and the fact that they seem to be at least somewhat catering to a softer audience, they were limited in how disturbed they could make the GOV. So the result of that seems to be that there's a disconnect in the Gov's level of evil. In the show he's seen as an extremely disturbed maniac, but to us, the viewers, he isn't as menacing and threatening as we're expected to see him as. Especially to those of us that are familiar with the source material. I see your point but in the comics, he was really over the top in villainy but for a TV show, no matter the network, it just wouldn't work and he'll seem too one dimensional. I think the TV version is awesome and if he gets to do something similar like what he did to officially start the bloodshed like in the comics than he'll be hated just as much as the comics. Just a few more episodes to go.

[Andy]

Honestly, without giving anything away, we all knew that the TV series governor could never have been as outright evil as the original governor. Anyone who was expecting this is just kidding themselves. That said, i do like Morrissey's Governor.

[Wyldwraith]

I have to disagree with the notion that a leader gives ALL possibilities equal time and reflection, Instead, a leader's job is to winnow through the obviously unworkable/untrustworthy/unacceptable outcome generating possibilities, so they can then focus on the truly legit alternatives before deciding which of those paths does the most good for the least risk. Throwing out that Rick is a father doesn't validate taking the Governor's ultimatum at face value, or even CONSIDERING accepting it as such. Fatherhood becomes irrelevant in the face of the glaring fact that Rick KNOWS the Governor lies to and betrays his own people routinely. In light of that fact, handing over Michonne is unworkable for two reasons. The first of course is knowing the Governor wouldn't uphold his end of that unholy bargain...that ground has been covered quite thoroughly. The second reason however is simple logistics: Let's say Rick handed over Michonne, having decided for whatever reason it's worth sacrificing her for the remote possibility the Governor is playing it straight. Even so, Team Prison would STILL have to remain just as much on alert for another surprise attack from Woodbury. In other words, handing over Michonne wouldn't change anything. With no basis for trust, Team Prison would have to remain in their current besieged/hyper alert mentality after handing over Michonne. The ONLY difference in their lives it would make is a) The absence of their 2nd best fighter, and b) The group's loss of trust in Rick's character as a leader. After all, if Rick could decide to take it upon himself to hand over a group member and send them to their certain torture, degradation and death...why should anyone ELSE in the group believe anything except "If Rick decides it's in the group's best interests, it could be ME he chooses to sacrifice next"? That's three different ways that readily come to any reasonable mind why handing over Michonne, or indeed anyone but Merle (and even that would have a huge Daryl-shaped price), isn't and never could have been a viable choice. I'll even add a fourth reason that any American, or PARTICULARLY any English citizen should find relevant. Appeasement of psychotic and/or sociopathic tyrants has, historically speaking, NEVER worked in anything but the shortest of terms...and even working for the very short term is rare. Neville Chamberlain's conduct when dealing with first Italy/Mussolini, and then Adolf Hitler is a perfect example of this. He convinced Britain to recognize Italy's conquest of Ethiopia in exchange for an agreement that the Italians would stand down Nationalist troops involved on the pro-Franco side of the Spanish Civil War. Less than a year later, said Nationalists were decisively victorious. Same deal with giving Hitler/Germany the Czech Sudentland. Hitler basically said "Thank you very much...and now I'll f&ck with you anyways England." Appeasing tyrants accomplishes nothing but confirming in the tyrant's mind that the Appeaser lacks the will to fight...and is therefore an open invitation to aggression. Rick doesn't have enough good fighters to begin with, and a good leader would be dwelling on that, before VERY shortly coming to the (seemingly) counterintuitive conclusion that there is actually vastly MORE risk of negative consequences of multiple types for the group if Michonne were handed over than there is in sending the message to the Governor that he can go fuck himself, and bring it on by, say, tossing a few nighttime Molotovs into that tire-stack barrier at Woodbury's gate, followed by a quick in-and-out shooting through torn gaps in that chincy fence of the now choking if not vomiting guards. (Ever gotten a lungful of burning-tire smoke? Worse in it's own way than tear gas...plus with enough accelerant to truly get those tires blazing Woodbury would be completely unable to put that tire-fire out...and would just have to deal with their one-street-town being covered in a thick pall of ground-hugging vile black smoke for DAYS. Just a thought. Your thoughts everyone?

[kidgloves]

Don't know if this has been brought up, but Rick and the gang need to clear the prison fields of walkers again and repair the fence. There is absolutely no excuse not to now there is a truce of sorts. Im going to be pretty pissed off if that becomes a plot device in the finale.

[krisvds]

Honestly, without giving anything away, we all knew that the TV series governor could never have been as outright evil as the original governor. Anyone who was expecting this is just kidding themselves. That said, i do like Morrissey's Governor. There is no reason why the governor couldn't be as evil as his comic counterpart. True, they could not show everything to the same extent as the comic did, but suggestion goes a long way. Take the Game Of Thrones series for instance; some of the things going on there are just as sadistic and graphically gruesome as anything in the TWd comic (Joffrey and those prostitutes to name but one instant amongst countless others ...). It's a mistake Kirkman himself makes a lot in his comics; you do not need to see everything in graphic detail to create repulsion or dread. The governor is not all too well defined in the series; ranging from sympathetic to downright evil, whatever the episode at hand calls for ... That's not ambiguity, to me it's erratic and sloppy writing.

[Morto Vivente]

In other words, handing over Michonne wouldn't change anything. With no basis for trust, Team Prison would have to remain in their current besieged/hyper alert mentality after handing over Michonne. The ONLY difference in their lives it would make is a) The absence of their 2nd best fighter, and b) The group's loss of trust in Rick's character as a leader. After all, if Rick could decide to take it upon himself to hand over a group member and send them to their certain torture, degradation and death...why should anyone ELSE in the group believe anything except "If Rick decides it's in the group's best interests, it could be ME he chooses to sacrifice next"? Appeasing tyrants accomplishes nothing but confirming in the tyrant's mind that the Appeaser lacks the will to fight...and is therefore an open invitation to aggression. Rick doesn't have enough good fighters to begin with, and a good leader would be dwelling on that, before VERY shortly coming to the (seemingly) counterintuitive conclusion that there is actually vastly MORE risk of negative consequences of multiple types for the group if Michonne were handed over than there is in sending the message to the Governor that he can go fuck himself, and bring it on by, say, tossing a few nighttime Molotovs into that tire-stack barrier at Woodbury's gate, followed by a quick in-and-out shooting through torn gaps in that chincy fence of the now choking if not vomiting guards. (Ever gotten a lungful of burning-tire smoke? Worse in it's own way than tear gas...plus with enough accelerant to truly get those tires blazing Woodbury would be completely unable to put that tire-fire out...and would just have to deal with their one-street-town being covered in a thick pall of ground-hugging vile black smoke for DAYS. Just a thought. Your thoughts everyone? You have expressed exactly what's been puzzling me. Rick surely would be aware of the necessity to make a stand against the governor due to the inherent psychology of a tyrant. He's shown on multiple occasions in the past that he will do what needs to be done in order to secure his survival and his allies'(the showdown in the bar, killing Shane etc). What is his motivation for even considering the sacrifice of Michonne? For me you've clearly explained that it would be the wrong call ? He asks Hershel to talk him out of it, he says the group needs to be scared enough to accept it, even Rick's body language says I don't want to give her up but I'm tempted. Considering that he asks Hershel if he would be willing to sacrifice his own children to save Michonne the only answer I can come up with is Carl and by extension his own feelings of guilt over Lori. I haven't read the source material but I'm guessing that the death of Lori must impact upon Rick's choices at least in the tv show ? Though history has shown that if they could hold out long enough against team Woodbury in all likelihood one of the Governor's own crew would eventually take him out. Although I think they'd have to hold out for longer than 3 episodes!

[AcesandEights]

You guys may, or may not, be taking Rick's discussion with Hershel too literally. It seemed liked it could be a nod to Rick doing the right thing, even if he was tempted by the Governor's offer and his own profound weariness and that part of him that is wishing he had the luxury of just giving in and securing a home at the prison for his Son, Daughter and what remains of the group. There's actually a number of ways one can take the discussion at the end of the episode, so it's somewhat unclear at present.

[Morto Vivente]

You guys may, or may not, be taking Rick's discussion with Hershel too literally. It seemed liked it could be a nod to Rick doing the right thing, even if he was tempted by the Governor's offer and his own profound weariness and that part of him that is wishing he had the luxury of just giving in and securing a home at the prison for his Son, Daughter and what remains of the group. There's actually a number of ways one can take the discussion at the end of the episode, so it's somewhat unclear at present. Definitely unclear. I think the ambiguity made for a great cliffhanger. The camera cuts to a long shot as Rick kicks at the dirt. I'm obsessing now, but I can't wait to see how it plays out.

[sandrock74]

Don't know if this has been brought up, but Rick and the gang need to clear the prison fields of walkers again and repair the fence. There is absolutely no excuse not to now there is a truce of sorts. Im going to be pretty pissed off if that becomes a plot device in the finale. What?? The walkers in the fields provide an extra layer of protection the way I see it. Think about it, the Woodbury crew can't even attempt to cross all those zombies while the prison team is easily firing upon them. This limits Woodbury to a snipers fight, since getting in up close is a suicide run. Unless, of course, Tyreese lets them know of the open back side of the prison...

[Wyldwraith]

The part that convinced me what Rick meant: The whole "The group needs to be scared. Scared enough to accept IT." This statement was made immediately before Rick confided the Gov's ultimatum to Hershel. I didn't read that as Rick saying the group needed to be scared enough to accept going to war (They're already in a besieged mentality, with members of the group repeatedly advocating an assassination mission on the Governor. Even those less gung-ho already understand they ARE AT WAR, NOT will be at war). Reading it as Rick meaning the group needed to be scared enough of the Governor's intentions to accept going to a war they're already in therefore doesn't make contextual sense. On the OTHER hand, observing that the group would need to be individually and collectively in imminent fear for their lives to accept Rick moving to hand Michonne over to the Governor DOES make sense given the context of his other statements. (Asking Hershel if he'd sacrifice his daughters for Michonne, to "Talk him out of it" etc etc.) I don't think I'm being over-literal in saying Rick was referring to the possibility of handing over Michonne instead of the redundant statement of the obvious that him meaning them going to war would be. True, there is plenty of ambiguity about just how SERIOUSLY Rick is contemplating turning over Michonne...but I don't think there's an argument of equal weight and clarity based on the actor dialog in support of the notion Rick was referring to the group needing to be afraid to accept going to war. I could be wrong. If someone sees it differently and can articulate it as such I welcome your point of view.

[AcesandEights]

I don't think I'm being over-literal in saying Rick was referring to the possibility of handing over Michonne instead of the redundant statement of the obvious that him meaning them going to war would be. True, there is plenty of ambiguity about just how SERIOUSLY Rick is contemplating turning over Michonne...but I don't think there's an argument of equal weight and clarity based on the actor dialog in support of the notion Rick was referring to the group needing to be afraid to accept going to war. I could be wrong. If someone sees it differently and can articulate it as such I welcome your point of view. No real point to make other than I think the scene was tacked on for some cheap, cliffhangery tension and we're supposed to all be wondering "Could Rick really do it?" To be honest, I'd be more surprised, probably pleasantly surprised, if he did hand her over to the Governor (and it not be some sort of *wink, wink* plan crap). Now that, I wouldn't see coming Not that TWD hasn't thrown us a few curveballs, though.

[facestabber]

Sorry Wylde but it is a fact that Rick is a father. That fact has influenced his decision making in the past. I'm not saying or believe that Rick will turn Michonne over but he does think about his fatherhood role when contemplating his decisions. Maybe the contemplation lasts an entire 5 seconds but it does happen.

[Wyldwraith]

Ok, But what does that have to do with the facts/reality being in conflict with what Rick as a father wishes he could do? Ie: Have a simple choice he could make that avoids putting his son and daughter at risk. Rick KNOWS that leaving aside the morality of to hand or not hand over Michonne, the Governor lies to and betrays anyone and everyone in furthering his agenda. He knows the very act of TRYING to comply with the Governor's ultimatum would stand at least some chance of completely tearing the group apart as their trust in him and therefore in each other died once the precedent was set that a member of the group could be sold off at Rick's discretion... I don't dispute for a moment that the motivation for Rick's hesitation to make a decision with finality is his desire to safeguard his children. I just don't see how that desire to protect them could make Rick consider alternatives he has factual reasons to know make them unworkable. Momentarily tempted to do something stupid/insane to protect your kid(s) I can see...Actually deliberating on that stupidity/insanity, and willfully following through on it in a hope you know to be vain? Doesn't make sense to me. However, I'm not a parent. So maybe it's as simple as I'm not yet susceptible to this brand of craziness.

[Moon Knight]

He knows the very act of TRYING to comply with the Governor's ultimatum would stand at least some chance of completely tearing the group apart as their trust in him and therefore in each other died once the precedent was set that a member of the group could be sold off at Rick's discretion... This my friend is a very good point.

[Legion2213]

What?? The walkers in the fields provide an extra layer of protection the way I see it. Think about it, the Woodbury crew can't even attempt to cross all those zombies while the prison team is easily firing upon them. This limits Woodbury to a snipers fight, since getting in up close is a suicide run. Unless, of course, Tyreese lets them know of the open back side of the prison... Indeed. Also, I wouldn't waste a single round of ammo or a calorie of energy knowing that in 48 hours I'd be fighting a battle to the death with a group of well armed nutters. The walkers can wait, and as you say, provide an extra layer of hurt for the attackers to face.