TWD 3x16 "Welcome to the Tombs" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[JonOfTheShred]

I'm with Legion, Kidgloves, and Bassman - I really dug this episode - I particularly liked how it played against expectations. AND JonOfTheShred, maybe? I also enjoyed the episode. Don't mind me though.

[MinionZombie]

AND JonOfTheShred, maybe? I also enjoyed the episode. Don't mind me though. Quite right, sorry for the oversight. So let's make a tally of who really dug this episode then... Legion Kidgloves Bassman JonOfTheShred MinionZombie Chime in...

[JonOfTheShred]

Quite right, sorry for the oversight. So let's make a tally of who really dug this episode then... Legion Kidgloves Bassman JonOfTheShred MinionZombie Chime in... Just busting chops here hehe. I totally agree with your last sentence, "I'd advise temperance and a second viewing of the entire season in your own time. " I posted this little diddy on another forum, I'm just gonna copy and paste it to save time: "The show is best watched in large doses. Season 2 failed for people when it dragged for week after week....they got tired of waiting for Sophia to be found. Now when you watch Season 2 over the course of the weekend, that shit be fucking baller, yo. Same can be said for Season 3. It happens over the course of, what? Two weeks? How long in the show are these events unfolding? I guarantee people will enjoy the show more when watching it in marathon runs. Also gotta note, everyone's hate for "Arrow on the Doorstep" can be blamed 100% on commercial breaks. When an episode is meant to rise in tension throughout, the tension is completely ruined ever time you get a barrage of shitty advertisements. While this applies to every show ever made (commercials fuck up the pacing and atmosphere...funner to watch off Netflix/DVD...etc.) it is 100% more noticeable in a show like Walking Dead. Post-apocalyptic horror is best watched when one can immerse themself into the universe with surround sound and watch 5 hour chunks of the show. When you have annoying advertisements interspersed in a post-apocalyptic show, it fucks it all up. All the detractors of the show should rewatch Season 3 before casting stones at the writers. They may find they enjoy it far more than they realized."

[Staredge]

poor Milton! ............so I was gutted to see him go, *snort* Tend to agree with most everything else. Hopefully Lori will now rest in peace. I could be wrong, but was this the first time we've seen Rick kiss Judith??? I can't remember seeing him with her any other time. Hysterical question on Talking Dead: will Daryl now see Merle standing up there in a white dress???

[MagicMoonMonkey]

I had thought last week "what if Team Prison and Team Woodbury joined forces?" - and well, this is an interesting coming together. So I'll be interested to see where it goes. I think the Team P and Team W joining of forces would have been a bit more fruitful if all the able-bodied townsfolk had not been gunned down. The elderly and the young won't add much to the work and defence force, though getting Tyresse and Sasha back with Team P is going to be good. I share your, and the other members you listed, enjoyment of the finale, and barring the failure to off the Governor in a dramatic splatter-fest at the hands of a hungry horde of gouls not dissimilar to death of the wrongly vilified and misunderstood Captain Rhodes, the finale played out quite well. Here's looking forward to October (and the spoiler months in between) in the hope of another 16 episode season of our favourite TV show. Without my TWD and CLone Wars I will be lost.

[MinionZombie]

Hysterical question on Talking Dead: will Daryl now see Merle standing up there in a white dress??? Now that made me chuckle heartily ... gotta make a meme for that! I think the Team P and Team W joining of forces would have been a bit more fruitful if all the able-bodied townsfolk had not been gunned down. The elderly and the young won't add much to the work and defence force, though getting Tyresse and Sasha back with Team P is going to be good. I share your, and the other members you listed, enjoyment of the finale, and barring the failure to off the Governor in a dramatic splatter-fest at the hands of a hungry horde of gouls not dissimilar to death of the wrongly vilified and misunderstood Captain Rhodes, the finale played out quite well. Here's looking forward to October (and the spoiler months in between) in the hope of another 16 episode season of our favourite TV show. Without my TWD and CLone Wars I will be lost. Good man, another appreciator ... ... is that a word? Anyway - I'm sure they'll find use for the folk they've taken on. The young can wash their cars for pocket money, and the oldies can babysit and tell tall tales around the campfire. Seriously though, I'm sure they'll be of use, plus it's a strong moral position - I really liked that whole last chunk of the episode involving Andrea's demise and Rick returning to his Sheriff roots to defend what's still good in this world. I was watching the online extras for this episode and not only did it put front-and-centre to me just how great the music was in this episode (especially the opening and closing scenes - the latter most of all), but the thought processes that go into the acting ... Laurie Holden was talking about how with Andrea there was a moment of calm just before she offs herself, because she realises she's going back to Amy. I thought that was an incredibly sweet observation from Holden, and it actually choked me up a little bit. Even that lined of Michonne's "I'm not going anywhere" was just so touching, they got to be together one last time, the toughest time ... yeah ... this episode actually makes me kinda melancholly, in a good way though. I think regret is a key element of Andrea's final moments, for good and bad. Facestabber - back to the issue of Andrea's demise, I do feel a tad cheated that we didn't get to keep her around to complete her transformation 100%, but at the same time I'm quite satisfied with how it played out anyway. It's a memorable end, and she had a very full season-long arc. I've still been really quite disgusted with her getting labelled a "whore" just for shagging two guys in a single year etc ... sometimes I feel the hatred is self-perpetuating and damn-near irrational in the most extreme quarters of Internet opinion. Mmmm ... this is certainly an episode to stick in the mind. It didn't go in the obvious directions - it's interesting to look back over old posts in old threads and see just how wide of the mark some of our expectations/predictions were - and that's almost entirely a good thing. Also - Team Prison have got a bit of tidying up to do! Oh yeah - Season 3 finale memes by moi over yonder: http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/s...213#post296213 ... Lastly, here's a question: If you were Rick, would you have brought the remaining Woodburyites to the Prison, or would you have taken over Woodbury (in an equally peaceful manner)? Either way The Governor knows where you are. - - - Updated - - - Also, here's an interview with Robert Kirkman on the season finale. http://tv.yahoo.com/news/walking-dea...160521549.html Laurie Holden suggested it was somewhat of a last-minute decision to kill off Andrea. What led to the change in plans? I wouldn’t say it was necessarily last minute. It wasn’t quite planned at the very beginning of the season. It came up in the development of the Woodbury story. There were a lot of different plans for the Andrea character, and as we started getting closer and closer to the last few episodes of the season, it started to become a little more clear the direction we wanted to go in. And the thing that would have the most impact on all of the characters was actually her death. Did the fan backlash towards the character factor in at all? That was never anything that worked into the decision-making process. Fan backlash isn’t something we use to make decisions. The death of Andrea was already shot well before these last eight episodes aired. So it’s not really even possible to use fan reaction to guide story. Were you surprised by the criticism directed at her? And, looking back, would you do anything differently? Looking back, there are probably a few things we could’ve done to stem that. It wasn’t our intention to have a small but vocal portion of the audience not really behind her. We really wanted to show this character as someone who was optimistic about the possibilities of Woodbury. In the end, it’s always a risk having the audience know something that the character doesn’t. But we felt it was important to show the optimism in her. To show, in a sense, how desperate she was to have something to hold on to and be optimistic about. Some audience members didn’t react favorably to that. I do think it was a misreading of the situation. I see a lot of people saying, “Why doesn’t she know the Governor is a bad guy?” We’re seeing a larger picture that the character is not seeing. And some audience members didn’t key into that as much as we would’ve liked them too. Why did she spend so much time staring at Zombie Milton instead of picking up those damn pliers? [Laughs] You know, it was a struggle. A very tense situation. If you’ve never been straped to a chair watching someone die before you I don’t know that you can really judge how someone behaved. [Laughs] Why did Rick bring the Woodbury residents to the prison instead of relocating the prison folks to Woodbury? The Governor is still out there. He’s already killed a great number of people from Woodbury. And I think they were able to repel him at the prison, so moving into Woodbury and setting up shop in his backyard – a place he’s very familiar with — would be very dangerous for Rick. They see the prison as something that is much more easily defended than Woodbury. They were able to get into Woodbury easily themselves. The Woodbury defenses are very effective against zombies, but not very effective against humans. They see it as much more of a defensible position. Why keep the Governor around as a series regular next season? That question will be answered [in] Season 4. We always had a plan for this guy. We always knew that it was a bigger story than would fit into one season. There’s still a lot more to be done with this guy. We’ve known from the very first minute of Season 3 that we would be keeping the Governor around for a while. Will the prison remain the primary set piece in Season 4? There’s always going to be new locations and new places to discover and explore. I don’t want to reveal too much; Season 4 is still five months away. But I will say that as we see at the end of Season 3 we’re definitely going to start Season 4 at the prison. We may be there the whole season and we may not be… But there are going to be some big differences from Season 3. Interesting stuff ... and all very reasoned and level-headed.

[JonOfTheShred]

Now that made me chuckle heartily ... gotta make a meme for that! Good man, another appreciator ... ... is that a word? Anyway - I'm sure they'll find use for the folk they've taken on. The young can wash their cars for pocket money, and the oldies can babysit and tell tall tales around the campfire. Seriously though, I'm sure they'll be of use, plus it's a strong moral position - I really liked that whole last chunk of the episode involving Andrea's demise and Rick returning to his Sheriff roots to defend what's still good in this world. I was watching the online extras for this episode and not only did it put front-and-centre to me just how great the music was in this episode (especially the opening and closing scenes - the latter most of all), but the thought processes that go into the acting ... Laurie Holden was talking about how with Andrea there was a moment of calm just before she offs herself, because she realises she's going back to Amy. I thought that was an incredibly sweet observation from Holden, and it actually choked me up a little bit. Even that lined of Michonne's "I'm not going anywhere" was just so touching, they got to be together one last time, the toughest time ... yeah ... this episode actually makes me kinda melancholly, in a good way though. I think regret is a key element of Andrea's final moments, for good and bad. Facestabber - back to the issue of Andrea's demise, I do feel a tad cheated that we didn't get to keep her around to complete her transformation 100%, but at the same time I'm quite satisfied with how it played out anyway. It's a memorable end, and she had a very full season-long arc. I've still been really quite disgusted with her getting labelled a "whore" just for shagging two guys in a single year etc ... sometimes I feel the hatred is self-perpetuating and damn-near irrational in the most extreme quarters of Internet opinion. Mmmm ... this is certainly an episode to stick in the mind. It didn't go in the obvious directions - it's interesting to look back over old posts in old threads and see just how wide of the mark some of our expectations/predictions were - and that's almost entirely a good thing. Also - Team Prison have got a bit of tidying up to do! Oh yeah - Season 3 finale memes by moi over yonder: http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/s...213#post296213 ... Lastly, here's a question: If you were Rick, would you have brought the remaining Woodburyites to the Prison, or would you have taken over Woodbury (in an equally peaceful manner)? Either way The Governor knows where you are. - - - Updated - - - Also, here's an interview with Robert Kirkman on the season finale. http://tv.yahoo.com/news/walking-dea...160521549.html Interesting stuff ... and all very reasoned and level-headed. Thanks for posting that Kirkman interview, definitely an interesting read! I'm really wondering how the ratings fared; I suspect the show broke its own record once again? I'm definitely hoping they start giving the show a bigger budget next season, considering how well it's doing in ratings.

[Morto Vivente]

Quite right, sorry for the oversight. So let's make a tally of who really dug this episode then... Legion Kidgloves Bassman JonOfTheShred MinionZombie Chime in... I dug the finale. The fact that it wasn't another 20 minute showdown, this time against the living instead of the undead (season 2) shows that the writers aren't just pandering to mass appeal. Let's face it most people like action, maybe that's why mainstream cinema pumps out so many action movies with no character depth and lame plots. Sad to see Milton go, definitely my favorite addition to the cast in season 3, for me he had the sensibilities of a sane Dr Logan. For reasons of personal satisfaction I wish he'd blown the piss out of the Governor, however it's great that Morrissey is coming back for more of TWD. I think Andrea handed the torch over to Michonne in that last scene they had, although 2 action-women in the group would have been fine by me. The Governor's reaction to the Woodbury-ites was spot on. No power and control over them, therefore they were no use to him; pop,pop,pop ! As many of you predicted, during the prison assault they bolted at the first sign of trouble. Taking in the refugees was the right thing to do, and not just from a traditional ethical viewpoint. IMO cooperation is the key to surviving any kind of apocalypse; not John J Rambo escapades, they maybe entertaining but in reality they're bullshit. Who knows what kind of skills some of the refugees might have, and we'll never know because they're all extras. You need a group to survive, we're human beings not tigers. Everyone does what they can and nobody is completely self-sufficient. That's why we've had social structures since the year dot; yes ? The trick to surviving an apocalypse is knowing who to cooperate with. IMO the scene with Carl shooting the kid really hi-lights this point. Assuming the kid had swallowed the Governor's rhetoric about team prison, he probably intended to pull the trigger if Carl had grabbed the shotgun. It was the Governor's last words to Milton in action; kill or be killed etc. The kid was thinking fuck it they're going to kill me anyway. No wonder he was scared, as far as he was concerned Carl and crew were psychos. I think Hershel read it wrong, and Carl not being bogged down by social conventions got it right. Ultimately though, the kid was just another casualty of the Governor. If he'd cooperated and put the gun down he'd still be alive and traded a sociopath for a true leader. Carl could have warned him though.....Little bastard ! I'm with the Day of the Dead vibe on this. The cooperators survive; the separators die. Where are Rhodes and crew now ? Sarah however is probably still sunning herself on the beach, and rightly so, she had bigger balls.

[babomb]

The whole thing was just strange if you ask me. It's like everyone turned into these big soft bleeding hearts except Carl. Like it was a Walking Dead Easter Special. I'm surprised they didn't try to invite the woodbury forces in for a baked ham and some deviled eggs. Michonne, being this hard edged warrior, suspicious of everyone and everything, just completely understands why Rick tried to hand her over to the Gov, and she holds no hard feelings. Daryl, his heart is just warmed like butter over merle dying, and has no suspicions toward anyone for anything. (We musta missed the scene where CSI shows up and does a detailed analysis of what exactly happened during Merle's battle, and explains his motivations and thought process, and shows the iPhone video of the entire battle from all perspectives.) I'm surprised they didn't have a wedding ceremony for Glen and Maggie, then an easter egg hunt afterward. With the specters of Shane, Lori, Andrea, and Merle looking on with affectionate smiles, and Rick seeing them and staring off with a similar smile, while everyone else breaks out into song as the end credits roll. You got Glen and Maggie up on the catwalk firing at the feet of the attackers while screaming "get out of here". Yeah, that's an appropriate response to a group of blood thirsty thugs showing up with the intentions of slaughtering everyone inside. The Gov slaughters his own people, but doesn't manage to even wound a single person at the prison after showing up with a huge arsenal? C'mon?? What happened? Did Herschel hold such a touching bible study for everyone that they had this huge change of heart and decided that killing was totally wrong, even in defense of their own lives? So they crafted a plan of non-lethal force in response, that just happened to work out perfectly? And then they set out to "End this" and chase down the retreating forces of woodbury. What was their plan there? To use harsh words and pass out bibles with meaningfully highlighted passages? I'm still in shock here, wondering if I just dreamed this!? I'm glad some of you enjoyed it. But I'm just bewildered at what exactly it was that you guys enjoyed? It's starting to seem like some folks are just trying way too hard to like it, just because you feel lucky to have a zombie based TV show. Think back to when you read volume 3 of the novels. Those that read the books anyway. Was this season ANYTHING like what you saw happening in your mind when you originally read that volume? Not for me! This was like a terribly watered down, generic, lame version.

[MagicMoonMonkey]

I'm with the Day of the Dead vibe on this. The cooperators survive; the separators die. Where are Rhodes and crew now ? Sarah however is probably still sunning herself on the beach, and rightly so, she had bigger balls. Awww mate, c'mon. If there was any justice in the world it would have been Rhodes and his bikur-sojurs that would have been on that beach. The internet and camera angles are to blame for the misconception that Rhodes and co were the bad guys. I'd have shot Logan and chums the minute Bub cocked the pistol. The list is extensive for reasons to execute the civilian team members. It is our duty as members of HPotD to spread the truth. Rhodes was misunderstood! When do FOX UK normally do their re-run of the whole shebang?

[kidgloves]

I'm still in shock here, wondering if I just dreamed this!? I'm glad some of you enjoyed it. But I'm just bewildered at what exactly it was that you guys enjoyed? It's starting to seem like some folks are just trying way too hard to like it, just because you feel lucky to have a zombie based TV show. Think back to when you read volume 3 of the novels. Those that read the books anyway. Was this season ANYTHING like what you saw happening in your mind when you originally read that volume? Not for me! This was like a terribly watered down, generic, lame version. No-ones claiming the show doesn't have problems. Yes, some of the acting and writing at times is pretty bad but some of us have chosen NOT to focus on that. I for one enjoy the escapism in TWD universe. I've said it before but i'll repeat it here again. I watch TWD to be entertained and I am thoroughly entertained. Virtually every week. Its only when I go online and start reading that people are bitching and moaning about this and that, that I start to question my own judgement. I shouldn't do that because it doesn't really matter what other people think. Its about MY enjoyment of the show and thats what it should be for all of us. If I was watching week in and week out and not enjoying myself then thats a whole different matter.

[Legion2213]

No-ones claiming the show doesn't have problems. Yes, some of the acting and writing at times is pretty bad but some of us have chosen NOT to focus on that. I for one enjoy the escapism in TWD universe. I've said it before but i'll repeat it here again. I watch TWD to be entertained and I am thoroughly entertained. Virtually every week. Its only when I go online and start reading that people are bitching and moaning about this and that, that I start to question my own judgement. I shouldn't do that because it doesn't really matter what other people think. Its about MY enjoyment of the show and thats what it should be for all of us. If I was watching week in and week out and not enjoying myself then thats a whole different matter. I swear to God, it's the internets raison d'etre. I didn't have to put up with people criticising or soiling the reputation of Buck Rogers, the original Battlestar Galactica, Logans Run, or The Bionic Man when I was kid...damn you internet...damn you!!! I understand that folks have different ideas and the internet gives us all a chance to have our little say (positive, negative or indiferent), I think the key is to always go with your own judgement and enjoyment...I visit a site that can be fucking brutal when analysing the TNG Star Trek series and other shows...but you know what, even though most of the observations I see there are correct and pretty valid, I can still enjoy modern Trek for what it is...a little bit of fantasy escapism. Anyway, I'm blessed with pretty low standards...or maybe it isn't low standards, just an ability to enjoy things for what they are. If any drama or action shows didn't have people making silly, illogical choices, there really wouldn't be much drama or action...Hell, look at real life, you don't see an awfull lot of rational behaviour here either! - - - Updated - - - Hysterical question on Talking Dead: will Daryl now see Merle standing up there in a white dress??? Gently caressing his stump...

[Morto Vivente]

Awww mate, c'mon. If there was any justice in the world it would have been Rhodes and his bikur-sojurs that would have been on that beach. The internet and camera angles are to blame for the misconception that Rhodes and co were the bad guys. I'd have shot Logan and chums the minute Bub cocked the pistol. The list is extensive for reasons to execute the civilian team members. It is our duty as members of HPotD to spread the truth. Rhodes was misunderstood! When do FOX UK normally do their re-run of the whole shebang? I'm not sure whether your joking or just playing devil's advocate ? Assuming your not joking. If you remember Logan wasn't on that beach either, for the same reason as Rhodes. They were both nuts and out of control, albeit in different ways. IMO they both lacked the foresight to see what was required for survival. Rhodes is one of my favorite villains ever, but he was still a sociopathic wack-job. C'mon he deserted his own men when the shit hit the fan, as I said no balls. I don't think they'd even have made it as far as the beach with him in charge, and even if they had he'd have shot them all because there was no ice-cream. I'm always open to other opinions, so fire up some of those reasons why Sarah and Co should have been murdered relative to increasing the chances of surviving the ZA as a group.

[Legion2213]

I'm not sure whether your joking or just playing devil's advocate ? Assuming your not joking. If you remember Logan wasn't on that beach either, for the same reason as Rhodes. They were both nuts and out of control, albeit in different ways. IMO they both lacked the foresight to see what was required for survival. Rhodes is one of my favorite villains ever, but he was still a sociopathic wack-job. C'mon he deserted his own men when the shit hit the fan, as I said no balls. I don't think they'd even have made it as far as the beach with him in charge, and even if they had he'd have shot them all because there was no ice-cream. I'm always open to other opinions, so fire up some of those reasons why Sarah and Co should have been murdered relative to increasing the chances of surviving the ZA as a group. I think he's being a bit sarky mate...that said, "The Rhodes Appreciation Society" is always willing to welcome new members...just so long as they know who's running the monkey farm!

[Morto Vivente]

@ kidgloves It makes me wonder why the people who excessively moan about TWD still watch it every week ? @ Legion That did cross my mind but where was the , as a member of the monkey farm I need pictures.