TWD 4x04 "Indifference" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Harleydude666]

My gripe is that he didn't give her the choice. Because he has no authority to say that he has to detain her so she can go before the council. Tyreese at this point is most worried about his sister. So when they do get back, that will be priority 1. If they don't make it back, thr group still has to deal with the situation. It's not as if Carol is such a threat that she might slaughter the remaining survivors when they get back. Nobody else besides Rick knows it was Carol that burned the bodies. So if they returned, Tyreese isn't gonna immediately kill her. There's time for the group to recover before Rick brings their attention to the Carol situation. By that time they could also take steps to prevent Tyreese from killing her. There's nothing that proves that allowing Carol to come back will inevitably result in all out chaos. It's possible, but it's also possible that the decision Rick made will also cause some serious problems. Like Rick said, he made that decision for himself, out of his own self interest. Not for the group as a whole. I don't know about that dude. Carol is a very cold, calculated and dangerous person right now. I agree, she won't be able to slaughter the whole group but she could easily murder again. There is too much going on back at camp to bring that underestimated variable back there and not counting the Tyreese factor. Remember, you also have to figure Daryl will also be involved if things go wrong. Thinking about it, it's the only way and Carol understood it also, she knows she would be killed on the spot or be sentenced to death. Rick is still the Alpha of the group and he thinks survival first and foremost, so yes he did it for himself but also for the group as much as he did it for Carol - - - Updated - - - But to add, isn't it a beautiful thing we are discussing who is right and who is wrong when in fact Rick sentenced Michonne to death when he was going to hand her over to the Govener but changed his mind, back pack guy too No one is exactly right here but Rick is still calling the shots and he has his major faults thanks to the Zombie Apocalypse. Look what it brought out in him and we still root for him. I like writing this year. No one is innocent in this world, they all have blood on their hands

[kidgloves]

It would take a flash back to reveal the (true) events; A technique I've never seen used in this series before. And I can't see them using it. Not necessarily. Theres now a disturbed young girl with a knife in the isolation block.

[babomb]

I don't know about that dude. Carol is a very cold, calculated and dangerous person right now. I agree, she won't be able to slaughter the whole group but she could easily murder again. There is too much going on back at camp to bring that underestimated variable back there and not counting the Tyreese factor. Remember, you also have to figure Daryl will also be involved if things go wrong. Thinking about it, it's the only way and Carol understood it also, she knows she would be killed on the spot or be sentenced to death. Rick is still the Alpha of the group and he thinks survival first and foremost, so yes he did it for himself but also for the group as much as he did it for Carol - - - Updated - - - But to add, isn't it a beautiful thing we are discussing who is right and who is wrong when in fact Rick sentenced Michonne to death when he was going to hand her over to the Govener but changed his mind, back pack guy too No one is exactly right here but Rick is still calling the shots and he has his major faults thanks to the Zombie Apocalypse. Look what it brought out in him and we still root for him. I like writing this year. No one is innocent in this world, they all have blood on their hands She's not a murderous lunatic. She didn't murder because of bloodlust. There's no way that she would do the same thing again after knowing the response that the previous act got. Rick would also be watching her closely and wouldn't give her the chance to do it. She's a smart lady, she knows better, and the situation just wouldn't allow for it to happen again. Maybe further down the line in another situation she might make a similar calculation. Which is a real concern for Rick, and rightly so. But at the present time, she's no danger. I think a bigger concern for Rick is that others might not see it the same way he does. Especially if when they return to the prison the very thing that Carol was trying to prevent has actually happened. Sick people either infecting everyone else, or coming back and attacking people. If that happened then the people there to witness and deal with it might see Carols actions in a much more favorable way. I think Rick is also a little offended that Carol is not just sitting back and letting him make the decisions. She 2nd guessed him when dealing with the 2 survivors they found in the house. And Rick was obviously a little upset by that. They made a point to show that. Rick thinks he knows what's best for everyone, and he wants people to just do what he says when he decides to assume the leadership role. It's the cop in him. The problem with that is that some people want to take part in their own fate. They don't want someone deciding everything. Like the 2 survivors. They wanted to take an active role in the situation. It got them killed, but that's a chance everyone takes when they do anything. Carol takes the opposite approach. She believes that people should take an active role in their own fate, and if it kills them, that's a risk they had every right to assume. Rick is threatened by this because he's an "end justifies the means" kind of guy when he decides to play leader. Problem is he only wants to play leader when it strikes him to do so. His ways are very self serving. I know everyone wants to see him as the selfless leader, but that's not really who he is. They're showing us that, but people get kind of stuck in lines of thought and aren't judging his actions according to the same criteria they're judging other characters by. When Rick makes a lapse in judgement everyone comes up with any reason at all why he should get a pass on it. When someone else makes a mistake(not always even a mistake, just a difference in thought that leads to an unfavorable act), they get no pass, everyone quickly jumps on the bandwagon to dispense opinions on what the punishment should be.

[Moon Knight]

Not necessarily. Theres now a disturbed young girl with a knife in the isolation block. Exactly! I could see her murdering someone else; followed by a confession.   There is an upcoming episode called "Live Bait", maybe, just maybe, someone shows up at the prison gates with Carol as the potential "Live Bait". Just sayin'.

[facestabber]

I know everyone wants to see him as the selfless leader, but that's not really who he is. They're showing us that, but people get kind of stuck in lines of thought and aren't judging his actions according to the same criteria they're judging other characters by. When Rick makes a lapse in judgement everyone comes up with any reason at all why he should get a pass on it. When someone else makes a mistake(not always even a mistake, just a difference in thought that leads to an unfavorable act), they get no pass, everyone quickly jumps on the bandwagon to dispense opinions on what the punishment should be. More good points but I have disagree a bit here. Admittedly Rick's weakness as a leader is Carl and Judith, and rightfully so. I get that as a parent. As a fan of Rick I quickly disagreed with his intention to turn in Michonne. I hated that call. That isnt Rick Grimes pre apoc and he is fighting to maintain as much integrity as he can. I understood at the time as a leader he has to consider all options but Michonne's fate should have been an option all of 30 seconds. But Rick didnt go through with it. I wont say Rick is perfect but he is the chosen leader for a reason. Though long ago he was the man that returned for Merle Dixon. Sure the guns were there and he used that as part of the reason to appease Shane and co but the selfless human in him couldnt leave even a scumbag to die like that. Maybe in the apocalypse his belief system is weak to you and others regarding survival and thats fine to feel that way but I respect the character. Rick is a good man. Carol is a good woman. The situation sucks. After all this rambling, my point simply, is I will call Rick out for bad decisions but I dont believe he is a selfish man. He has proven enough that he would die defending his friends.

[kidgloves]

She's not a murderous lunatic. She didn't murder because of bloodlust. There's no way that she would do the same thing again after knowing the response that the previous act got. Rick would also be watching her closely and wouldn't give her the chance to do it. She's a smart lady, she knows better, and the situation just wouldn't allow for it to happen again. Maybe further down the line in another situation she might make a similar calculation. Which is a real concern for Rick, and rightly so. But at the present time, she's no danger. I think a bigger concern for Rick is that others might not see it the same way he does. Especially if when they return to the prison the very thing that Carol was trying to prevent has actually happened. Sick people either infecting everyone else, or coming back and attacking people. If that happened then the people there to witness and deal with it might see Carols actions in a much more favorable way. I think Rick is also a little offended that Carol is not just sitting back and letting him make the decisions. She 2nd guessed him when dealing with the 2 survivors they found in the house. And Rick was obviously a little upset by that. They made a point to show that. Rick thinks he knows what's best for everyone, and he wants people to just do what he says when he decides to assume the leadership role. It's the cop in him. The problem with that is that some people want to take part in their own fate. They don't want someone deciding everything. Like the 2 survivors. They wanted to take an active role in the situation. It got them killed, but that's a chance everyone takes when they do anything. Carol takes the opposite approach. She believes that people should take an active role in their own fate, and if it kills them, that's a risk they had every right to assume. Rick is threatened by this because he's an "end justifies the means" kind of guy when he decides to play leader. Problem is he only wants to play leader when it strikes him to do so. His ways are very self serving. I know everyone wants to see him as the selfless leader, but that's not really who he is. They're showing us that, but people get kind of stuck in lines of thought and aren't judging his actions according to the same criteria they're judging other characters by. When Rick makes a lapse in judgement everyone comes up with any reason at all why he should get a pass on it. When someone else makes a mistake(not always even a mistake, just a difference in thought that leads to an unfavorable act), they get no pass, everyone quickly jumps on the bandwagon to dispense opinions on what the punishment should be. Excellent analysis. Lots of grey areas around Ricks decision. Still think he did the best thing for the group though. - - - Updated - - - Exactly! I could see her murdering someone else; followed by a confession.   There is an upcoming episode called "Live Bait", maybe, just maybe, someone shows up at the prison gates with Carol as the potential "Live Bait". Just sayin'. Hmmm. Good call.

[babomb]

More good points but I have disagree a bit here. Admittedly Rick's weakness as a leader is Carl and Judith, and rightfully so. I get that as a parent. As a fan of Rick I quickly disagreed with his intention to turn in Michonne. I hated that call. That isnt Rick Grimes pre apoc and he is fighting to maintain as much integrity as he can. I understood at the time as a leader he has to consider all options but Michonne's fate should have been an option all of 30 seconds. But Rick didnt go through with it. I wont say Rick is perfect but he is the chosen leader for a reason. Though long ago he was the man that returned for Merle Dixon. Sure the guns were there and he used that as part of the reason to appease Shane and co but the selfless human in him couldnt leave even a scumbag to die like that. Maybe in the apocalypse his belief system is weak to you and others regarding survival and thats fine to feel that way but I respect the character. Rick is a good man. Carol is a good woman. The situation sucks. After all this rambling, my point simply, is I will call Rick out for bad decisions but I dont believe he is a selfish man. He has proven enough that he would die defending his friends. There's a problem with that way of thinking though. I don't mean this as a criticism of you or any other Rick fan. But when you're a fan of something, you tend to view that with rose colored glasses. You see Rick as a flawed but selfless human. But let's examine him a bit. His decision to go back for Merle on the roof wasn't a selfless act. He did that because yes, he's a good man, but he was also the one who handcuffed him to the roof. Of course he had good reason to do that, and it was T-Dog that dropped the key. But he said in that episode that he didn't want that on him. So it wasn't out of pure selflessness that he went back for him. It was ultimately a self serving act. Yes, he could've been selfish about it like Shane would've been and just left him. He didn't because he is a good man. But his motivations are never really selfless. Then there's the Michonne situation. You see it as though he never went through with handing over Michonne. But that's where the rose colored glasses distort the vision. I'm not a fan of any particular character. I'm a fan of the group, and I want to see them survive. But I don't identify with or hold any character above any other. So when I look at the Michonne situation, for all intents and purposes, Rick did go through with it. He even chose the one person out of the group that was most likely to get the job done to be the one to deliver Michonne, and possibly himself to the Gov. On the very slim chance that this would prevent the war. Rick changed his mind and sent Daryl to stop things. But in the end it was Merle who didn't go through with it. Rick made the decision and put it into action, he even sent someone else to do it. But Rick fans only see this as a bad decision, not a self serving act, and will also give an endless amount of reasons why he did this. That's the rose colored glasses of fanship. I'm not saying he's a selfish man like Shane was. I'm just saying that he isn't the selfless human that Rick fans like to see him as. Those who are fans most likely don't even realize that they are biased in this way.

[Moon Knight]

There's a problem with that way of thinking though. I don't mean this as a criticism of you or any other Rick fan. But when you're a fan of something, you tend to view that with rose colored glasses. You see Rick as a flawed but selfless human. But let's examine him a bit. His decision to go back for Merle on the roof wasn't a selfless act. He did that because yes, he's a good man, but he was also the one who handcuffed him to the roof. Of course he had good reason to do that, and it was T-Dog that dropped the key. But he said in that episode that he didn't want that on him. So it wasn't out of pure selflessness that he went back for him. It was ultimately a self serving act. Yes, he could've been selfish about it like Shane would've been and just left him. He didn't because he is a good man. But his motivations are never really selfless. Then there's the Michonne situation. You see it as though he never went through with handing over Michonne. But that's where the rose colored glasses distort the vision. I'm not a fan of any particular character. I'm a fan of the group, and I want to see them survive. But I don't identify with or hold any character above any other. So when I look at the Michonne situation, for all intents and purposes, Rick did go through with it. He even chose the one person out of the group that was most likely to get the job done to be the one to deliver Michonne, and possibly himself to the Gov. On the very slim chance that this would prevent the war. Rick changed his mind and sent Daryl to stop things. But in the end it was Merle who didn't go through with it. Rick made the decision and put it into action, he even sent someone else to do it. But Rick fans only see this as a bad decision, not a self serving act, and will also give an endless amount of reasons why he did this. That's the rose colored glasses of fanship. I'm not saying he's a selfish man like Shane was. I'm just saying that he isn't the selfless human that Rick fans like to see him as. Those who are fans most likely don't even realize that they are biased in this way. Calm down, we all know Rick is flawed. There is no black or white; just shades of grey in the zombie apocalypse. It's how you survive.

[babomb]

Calm down, we all know Rick is flawed. There is no black or white; just shades of grey in the zombie apocalypse. It's how you survive. I'm perfectly calm. Just making some points that need to be made. I mean no offense to you.

[Moon Knight]

I'm perfectly calm. Just making some points that need to be made. I mean no offense to you. I actually worded that harshly. Didn't mean for it to come out like that. I apologize.

[babomb]

No worries.

[zombieparanoia]

I'm really starting to hate rick, just like in the comics there is this thread of trying to portray rick as a leader when he just really isn't. He makes irrational decisions impulsively, is pretty self serving and often really only is knee jerk responding to whats in front of him. Rick kills people by abandoning them which, in post fall world is just as much a death sentence as shooting them. He just seems to think it's more morally rationalizable to say they died on their own, it's like throwing a person off a boat in the middle of the ocean and saying "gee, I guess they drowned, too bad they couldn't swim better" I get it's the way the storyline is written but in the show and the comics I just find him so unlikable I don't see how he's the hero of the story. I think carol was right to kill the 2 sick people, if she assessed them as about to die, and trying to stop the spread of the flu what's the problem? Do you have to wait for a person to turn before you destroy the threat? Wasn't the hippie guy in the pictures on the gas station wall? With the hunting party group? Also, Tyreese needs to find a hatchet, wtf would you use a blunt instrument that takes 3 strikes to take a down a walker? Daryl and michonne were great, I'm starting to warm up to michonne, now that shes not just angry black lady with a sword who doesn't talk, like the entirety of last season.

[Publius]

I think carol was right to kill the 2 sick people, if she assessed them as about to die, and trying to stop the spread of the flu what's the problem? Do you have to wait for a person to turn before you destroy the threat? So should someone at the prison now go on a rampage through the "sick ward" and kill everyone in it, including Glenn and Hershel?

[Legion2213]

Also, Tyreese needs to find a hatchet, wtf would you use a blunt instrument that takes 3 strikes to take a down a walker? Daryl and michonne were great, I'm starting to warm up to michonne, now that shes not just angry black lady with a sword who doesn't talk, like the entirety of last season. Ironically, the "Cold Steel" heavy machete he was using to get into the garage would be better for offing walkers, totally reliable and pretty much indestructable. The only advantage I see with the hammer is it's less likely to foul and get stuck in a walker skull (see Carol's Kukri incident a show or two back). And yes, Michonne is vastly improving as a character, Daryl seems to be exerting a bit of influence on her to stick around as well...probably because he sees her as a very dependable member of the group to be with when the shit hits the fan.

[Mr. Clean]

I'm really starting to hate rick, just like in the comics there is this thread of trying to portray rick as a leader when he just really isn't. He makes irrational decisions impulsively, is pretty self serving and often really only is knee jerk responding to whats in front of him. Really? I can't completely agree with your assessment of Rick's comic character.   In the comics....I thought he handled the cannibals like a bad ass.....The finger pointing like a gun and having Andrea blow dude's left ear off on command....Like a Boss! Sure he stumbles and makes mistakes as a leader but what human being doesn't have weaknesses or faults? Also, I don't feel that Rick chose the role of being a leader....It's more of the group chose him. Once being picked....it's hard to stop wearing the shoes. Especially when everyone still turns to you as if you are still wearing them.