TWD 4x05 "Internment" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[sandrock74]

Keeping watch at night is almost useless with no electricity. With no lights, anyone on guard (say in what's left of the guard tower(s)) wouldn't be able to see much of anything unless its the time of the full moon and it happens to be a clear night. Still, a couple of people walking a tight perimeter around the buildings wouldn't be a bad idea. Daylight hours is another story, in which I'd want a couple "eyes in the sky" at all times and be sure to equip them with binoculars.

[babomb]

Some of you seem to be under the impression this is a survival documentary. It isn't. Its based on a comic. Besides, if they executed the perfect survival plan it would be boring as hell. We probably wouldn't even see a zombie. Nobody is under that impression. It's based on a comic, but it's meant to be more realistic than most shows based on comics. I'm certainly not saying they should have formulated a perfect survival plan and executed it. There is no perfect survival plan. Unexpected things happen and plans have to change. Some consistency and forethought would only add to the overall experience though. Some of us are just pointing out areas that could use some more thought and attention to details. But when it comes to firearms, it's as if the assumption in the creative dept is that guns are guns, you point and shoot. No need to keep them maintained, or to conserve ammo. No need to even pay attention to how many rounds any specific gun can hold. As if viewers are all idiots and won't notice that a pump action shotgun that holds a max of 8 rounds just fired off 30 rounds with no reload. That one sure got alot of attention here on the forums. But that's something that even folks with little experience with guns will notice, so it's not considered nitpicking. But things that are obvious to people with more experience, that's nitpicking.

[Morto Vivente]

With regards to Hershel's actions wheeling the dead out of sight before the "knife netty treatment", he's the moral/religious compass for the group. Makes sense from that perspective I'd say. I agree. Rightly or wrongly I'd say Herschel is preserving what he feels he can from the pre-za days in the face of everything. He isn't ping-ponging from pre-za values to the other extreme, as I think Rick did for a time after killing Shane (by necessity).

[Neil]

You are right Babomb. I didnt mind or fault not shooting at the fence only because I enjoyed the father/son shoot/bond moment. To me it was worth it. A plot device to give us a cool scene. Practical? No. But I can live with it. The full auto issue. I thought about complaining as we both know the gun handling issues have never been a strong suit. Even Ricks quick tutorial about slapping the bolt closed first, inserting mag then pulling the "operating bolt"(i think he said) didnt make sense. I am an advocate for semi auto. Having a full auto rifle at my disposal it is far easier to shoot accurately and repeatedly with semi. Full auto has its use though. And actually when I rewatched this scene they were shooting short bursts. I wouldnt say that is horrible considering you have a slow moving force that is funneled and all standing at similar height. If a person knows how to lean into auto fire with controlled bursts and slight and I mean slight sweeping motions in those circumstances it could be effective. Carl's stance and even Ricks to a lesser extent show neither was positioned correctly though. Im nitpicking here though. It was good enough for me. Had they went full Steele mode then it would have been beyond rediculous if it was effective. And you know why the fence hasnt been reinforced yet? Rick tossed Carol.....I kid I kid My biggest issue with the guns was - if I recall correctly - they just seemed to be stashed in big barrel outside? Hardly good gun care for something that's so very important for their survival?

[babomb]

My biggest issue with the guns was - if I recall correctly - they just seemed to be stashed in big barrel outside? Hardly good gun care for something that's so very important for their survival? Exactly. In the south, with the humidity, in a dirty environment? Those aren't AK's, they're prone to failure from environmental conditions. On the full auto issue, I understand why they do it. It looks cool. And it isn't technically full auto, it's burst fire. Fires 3 rounds everytime the trigger is pressed. But they obviously have a very limited supply of ammo. They can't afford to burn through it like that. They don't have the option of waiting for resupply, what they have is what they have. And they don't know what's gonna happen in the future. They know the governer is out there somewhere, they see more and more walkers appear at the fence daily. It's obvious that there's a supply situation. So for them to throw caution to the wind like that means they're oblivious to these issues. Which is impossible. Then there's the fence issue. They've known forever that the fence is weak. But the only time they pay any attention to that and try to reinforce it is when there's a huge amount of walkers on it and it's about to come down. Ya think maybe it would be a good idea to address that issue in a more sensible manner? They had the "cold crew" out there thinning the numbers for months, and nobody thought to themselves that the fence was a serious weak point and should be reinforced NOW, before it becomes a major problem as it is now? It's not just the fact that these things don't make sense. It's that they're simple plot devices put there intentionally. They indicate lazy, predictable writing.

[AcesandEights]

My biggest issue with the guns was - if I recall correctly - they just seemed to be stashed in big barrel outside? Hardly good gun care for something that's so very important for their survival? Neil, this is perfectly illustrative of what I was saying about people making negative assumptions. Does it make sense that the guns were out there day after day, in the sun when it was sunny, in the rain when it was rainy? No? Then why assume they were there around the clock and not positioned out there shortly prior to the scene when things were getting 'hot' and they were low on personnel to deal with the very real possibility of the fence being breached? Why assume behavior that makes no sense, as opposed to assuming something that does make sense?

[shootemindehead]

Indeed! Maybe they needed a comment in there before on not wanting to waste their ammo!? That would have been fine. But really it's a silly writing mistake more than anything else. Also, my point is, that in the space of a few minutes Rick and Carl exterminate the entire swarm that's been threatening to knock the fence down for a couple of episodes now and that really could have been done before, instead of dicking about with supports? It's only a niggle...but still. Thinning out the numbers at the fence should be the No.1 priorty as far as I would be concerned.

[Moon Knight]

No, I don't need basic logic explained to me for a scene like that to work cause it was freakin' badass. I'm not gonna assume the guns were placed outside the entire time cause I don't know that and niether do any of you. The heavy guns and ammo were saved for when the shit hits the fan and that it certainly did last Sunday.

[Neil]

Neil, this is perfectly illustrative of what I was saying about people making negative assumptions. Does it make sense that the guns were out there day after day, in the sun when it was sunny, in the rain when it was rainy? No? Then why assume they were there around the clock and not positioned out there shortly prior to the scene when things were getting 'hot' and they were low on personnel to deal with the very real possibility of the fence being breached? Why assume behavior that makes no sense, as opposed to assuming something that does make sense? Why would they wheel barrels/boxes of guns around over and over? Why not just show them opening up a permanent storage locker, outside door, back of a vehicle where the guns are stored permanently? I'll agree it's a minor thing, just my brain fired off when I saw that scene...

[Wyldwraith]

One point: That "side-opening draw bridge" of theirs was no simply bit of engineering. The Mythbusters guy said as much during the zombie episode of Mythbusters. But let's skip hyper-realism, to simply ask: "If they already had a large pool of manpower on the gate job, why not move on to outer fence reinforcement as soon as the gate was done? As Adam pointed out on Talking Dead, the Prison HAS to have a machine shop, and for their purposes you only need scrap metal and the most primitive of welding (or hell, even bending the ends of long pieces of metal hook-like through the holes in the inner and outer fence). Failing that, with all the pointless effort put into logging for reinforcement-poles doomed to failure, they could have simply piled a mountain of heavy junk from the base of the fence to about 60-65% of the way to the top. The Prison is huge, thousands of metal bunk frames, doors that can be taken down because they aren't needed...or HELLO CELL DOORS from any of the hundreds of cells unneeded by the Prison inhabitants. Metal tables from the undoubtedly sizable Prison Cafeteria. The list is night unto endless. I don't feel like it's a nitpick because that gate isn't just functional, it LOOKS very well-fashioned. Any group capable of creating that gate could do WAY better than poorly-angled wooden rods for fence reinforcement. Add to that, Carol's comment to Daryl in the first episode of the Season indicates they've been having these very large overnight swells in Walker numbers at the fence for AT LEAST a month. Ie: "We had a major increase overnight in the # of Walkers at the fence. They're clustered between Towers X and Y (forgot the #'s she used). It hasn't been this bad since last month! So, it's not like a large herd just suddenly wandered into the area similar to the farm's downfall. Hell, as a friend of mine pointed out: "Hang SHEETS just inside the fence so the Walkers can't see people moving around the Prison grounds nearly so much. In the absence of visual or auditory stimuli, Walkers are dumb enough to lose interest EVENTUALLY, even if they saw the people put the sheets up. Not suggesting it would eliminate every single Walker from pressing on the fence, but based on whats been revealed to us so far concerning Walker attention spans and response to external stimuli, there's no reason it wouldn't work that I can see. Either way, ignoring the fence until it begins to bulge inwards under the sheer press of Walker bodies was epic shortsightedness. ESPECIALLY when it's been such a daily problem for long enough that a NICKNAME had already popped up for those working the fence. Ie: Cold Crews. Yes, I understand they'd planned the fence breach since LAST season writing-wise, but it's still one of those things that makes it harder to suspend disbelief. All that said, I know I've been a bit outspoken in my criticism of certain plot elements this season....but I am FAR happier with the overall quality of this Season so far than I was all but maybe one or two episodes of Last Season. The dialog is better, the godawful Woodbury-Prison pingpong is over, the Walkers have reclaimed their status as a major threat to continued life (Whereas last season the only time Walkers seemed dangerous was when the Governor was deploying them as undead conscripts) and the character interactions flow much more believably, rather than just tunneling in on a couple characters' back-and-forth for a couple episodes at a time. Finally, the imagination when it comes to Walkers and the situations they're encountered in really hearkens back to the awesome stuff in Season 1 and a few parts of Season 2. The Walkers through the ceiling, the overgrown vegetation they burst out of...or even something non-threatening along the lines of bicycle Walker. Roots-and-vegetation Walker lying at the base of that tree. I'm really digging Season 4, moreso than I imagined I ever would after Season 3's disappointments, so I think that's why I feel so strongly when they strike an off-key note in the story. Just thought that as negative as I've been I should focus for a bit on the positives. If they just get Rick tightened down a bit, with less erratic and arbitrary stuff from the Rick-character, a so-far golden season could turn platinum. Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

[facestabber]

Keeping watch at night is almost useless with no electricity. With no lights, anyone on guard (say in what's left of the guard tower(s)) wouldn't be able to see much of anything unless its the time of the full moon and it happens to be a clear night. Still, a couple of people walking a tight perimeter around the buildings wouldn't be a bad idea. Daylight hours is another story, in which I'd want a couple "eyes in the sky" at all times and be sure to equip them with binoculars. I understand visibility is hindered at night but I believe they should still have eyes open and armed on the roof. They may not see who or what is in the tree line but they would know if the fence got breached in the middle of the night. Which would be good to know when the morning crew opens the doors to step outside to several dozen walkers. Or if the Gov or any gang decided to drive down the fence to make life difficult. Complacency and I get it. Its human nature. Its probably realistic that the show doesnt have 24 hour watch. But I would. Didnt mean to stir up the weapon handling debate. Like I said I just learned to accept it. But hearing Rick tell Carl to hold down the trigger for auto/rapid fire is laughable. And to my fellow posters here that dont 'get' guns. The M4's they were using are select fire. Switch from single to auto with your thumb. Oh crap I did it again. No more gun talk. Babomb. Im pretty sure the M4 was never built with 3 round burst(maybe illegally built civilian models). The military did eliminate full auto from their M16A2 for a period. I will take Aces idea and assume the behavior was thought out and made sense.

[MinionZombie]

Neil, this is perfectly illustrative of what I was saying about people making negative assumptions. Does it make sense that the guns were out there day after day, in the sun when it was sunny, in the rain when it was rainy? No? Then why assume they were there around the clock and not positioned out there shortly prior to the scene when things were getting 'hot' and they were low on personnel to deal with the very real possibility of the fence being breached? Why assume behavior that makes no sense, as opposed to assuming something that does make sense? Well said Aces. Thinning out the numbers at the fence should be the No.1 priorty as far as I would be concerned. To be fair there was a scene earlier in the episode where Maggie's out there popping walker heads like they're going out of fashion, but the crowd is just so large she can barely make a dent no matter how fast she goes. So it makes sense to shore up the fence in the meantime to buy yourself some precious time - and you don't want to use the guns unless you really have to because of the noise and the problems that can cause. Also, their numbers were stretched very thin - Daryl & Co hadn't returned yet, Hershel was helping the sick, so you've got Carl, Maggie, and Rick ... and then Maggie's inside with Glenn when the shit kicks off, so you've only got Rick and Carl available for dealing with the fence. So they were really low on manpower.

[babomb]

Neil, this is perfectly illustrative of what I was saying about people making negative assumptions. Does it make sense that the guns were out there day after day, in the sun when it was sunny, in the rain when it was rainy? No? Then why assume they were there around the clock and not positioned out there shortly prior to the scene when things were getting 'hot' and they were low on personnel to deal with the very real possibility of the fence being breached? Why assume behavior that makes no sense, as opposed to assuming something that does make sense? I see what you're saying. But it's far more likely that the writers never really thought that far into the situation. You'd think that if they had they might show a brief 2 second scene of someone loading rifles into the container. It's just more likely that the writers thought process was that they keep a couple rifles there just in case. Never considering that it would actually be a dumb move to do so. I'd be more inclined to assume otherwise if there was a history of them taking the smaller details into account. But they have a tendency to overlook those details for the most part. For example, as Wyld pointed out, they constructed this behemoth front gate to protect from having the gate rammed again. And they put up spike barriers on both sides of it. But it seems they never did anything to the rest of the fence. Should we assume that they have reinforced all other parts of the fence except the parts where the walkers have torn it down? Or is it safe to assume that it's just an oversight on the part of the writers? Or a plot device to be exploited in a future episode? There's a certain suspension of disbelief that's necessary. But I think they might be too dependent on that these days.

[Legion2213]

For example, as Wyld pointed out, they constructed this behemoth front gate to protect from having the gate rammed again. And they put up spike barriers on both sides of it. But it seems they never did anything to the rest of the fence. Should we assume that they have reinforced all other parts of the fence except the parts where the walkers have torn it down? Or is it safe to assume that it's just an oversight on the part of the writers? Or a plot device to be exploited in a future episode? There's a certain suspension of disbelief that's necessary. But I think they might be too dependent on that these days. Wave it away by thinking the gate was a priority, the fence was secondary and about to be started on...but then the super-duper flu hit them. Somebody also mentioned that the walkers were moving about from one spot to another, so they'd shore up one part and then they'd move somewhere else (explained by the tasty rat treats somebody has been leaving). There is a LOT of fence to secure for such a small group with limited resources.

[shootemindehead]

To be fair there was a scene earlier in the episode where Maggie's out there popping walker heads like they're going out of fashion, but the crowd is just so large she can barely make a dent no matter how fast she goes. So it makes sense to shore up the fence in the meantime to buy yourself some precious time - and you don't want to use the guns unless you really have to because of the noise and the problems that can cause. Also, their numbers were stretched very thin - Daryl & Co hadn't returned yet, Hershel was helping the sick, so you've got Carl, Maggie, and Rick ... and then Maggie's inside with Glenn when the shit kicks off, so you've only got Rick and Carl available for dealing with the fence. So they were really low on manpower. All they needed was two people, two minutes and two M16's. Job done. I'd have taken the chance on the noise factor, rather than wait for the fence to crumble, possibly at night, when everyone is sleepy sleep.