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Thread: TWD 4x05 "Internment" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

  1. #76
    Walking Dead Legion2213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    All they needed was two people, two minutes and two M16's. Job done.

    I'd have taken the chance on the noise factor, rather than wait for the fence to crumble, possibly at night, when everyone is sleepy sleep.
    No way, remember the size of that zombie herd that Daryl and co bumped into? You do NOT want to be attracting that sort of attention (which is exactly what I am hoping will happen because of the mass shooting at the breach...of course I'm a viewer, and not stuck in the prison!)

    The fence situation could have been controlled in silence with melee weapons if they didn't have so many people dead and dying from the flu or whatever it is...start of the season they had 4 or 5 folks going at it every day, the last episode had little Maggie all on her own.
    Last edited by Legion2213; 13-Nov-2013 at 10:28 PM. Reason: .
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion2213 View Post
    Wave it away by thinking the gate was a priority, the fence was secondary and about to be started on...but then the super-duper flu hit them.

    Somebody also mentioned that the walkers were moving about from one spot to another, so they'd shore up one part and then they'd move somewhere else (explained by the tasty rat treats somebody has been leaving). There is a LOT of fence to secure for such a small group with limited resources.
    I could go with that if there was actually parts of the fence that they started on, or even a very brief conversation regarding it. As it stands it seems like they just trusted the fence as it is.
    It was what, 6 months since last season? It took them all that time to build the gate and the spikes on each side? And that's exactly where this season started? Like a day after the gate was done, before they started on the rest? Why wouldn't they just continue building spikes and put them along the base of the fence? They were already building them. Why stop construction there when it was already underway? You wouldn't. You'd make a plan to do the whole thing and continue until it was done. They never showed anyone building anything, there's no half built spike barriers laying around that we've seen. Not even a pile of sharpened logs.

    There's every indication that there was no plan for the fence. Their plan was to keep popping the walkers through the fence, day after day with a team of people. Do the math on that. How much energy does that require in the long run, and how much room for error does a plan like that allow?

  3. #78
    Walking Dead Moon Knight's Avatar
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    They waited this long too fortify the fences cause they wanted to entertain all of you.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Knight View Post
    They waited this long too fortify the fences cause they wanted to entertain all of you.
    Yet again I find myself in agreement with The Fist of Khonshu.

    My question about setting up the spikes along the fence is how would they have done it? Would they have waited for a zombie union break? Run out, place one and run back in, again and again? Activate their borrowed Predator cloaking devices while working on it? That kind of job would be a suicide trip; it would have been costly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Knight View Post
    They waited this long too fortify the fences cause they wanted to entertain all of you.
    That's exactly my point.

    As to how they'd do it, how would they have built the gate and put the barriers on the sides of it? My theory would be that they'd build the spike barriers in sections, up in the court area out of sight of the walkers. Put it on the pickup trailer, have the cold crew distract many of the walkers from inside the fence. Have a guard team of 4 guys play escort to the 2 or 3 guys that take the barrier off the trailer and put it in place. Keep luring the walkers away from the area that they're working at, go back and get the next barrier section and do it again.
    Once you have the sections built it wouldn't really take too long to stop the truck and everyone jumps out into formation to protect the 2 or 3 guys it takes to lift the barrier off the trailer and put it in place. They could attach small lengths of chain to the bottom of the 2 inner "bookend" spikes in each section and drive them in the ground from inside the fence.
    It wouldn't be as difficult as you think. You could park the truck at the gate with a couple sections loaded up on the trailer and leave it there while everyone lures the walkers further and further away from the area where they're gonna be placed. Then when the walkers are well distracted, charge out the gate and put them in place.
    They wouldn't even have to use those spiked barriers. Like Wyld said, even old junk would do the trick. Even just some wood or metal poles driven well into the ground on the inside of the fence would help alot. If they can build that functioning gate and put it in place, they can sure as hell reinforce the fence. We're talking about human beings here. Humans have a way of figuring shit out.

    But as was said, the writers chose not to do that because having the fence come down is part of the storyline this season. It was done this way so that we could be entertained. To me that's an indication of how lazy the writing is getting to be. They're resting on their laurels.

    All bitching and nitpicking aside, this season is way better than last season. And the last 2 episodes have been alot better than the previous 3. I really hope that continues. I just wish the writers would stop screwing around with biodegradable plot devices and pay just a little more attention to detail.

  6. #81
    Twitching sandrock74's Avatar
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    No thanks, I can't imagine how boring it would be having to watch something as monotonous as everyone working like that to fortify the fences.

    This reminds me of a comic book story I heard once. At the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga in the X-Men, the Imperial Guard wiped the floor with the X-Men, who fought in vain to save Phoenix/Marvel Girl. In the end, fearing the danger that she herself presented, Phoenix killed herself, as it was the only way she knew how to keep the earth safe. People have often asked co-plotter/penciler John Byrne why didn't the X-Men call for help, as it was specifically shown that they had prep time before the final battle went down. The Beast was with the X-Men there and at the time he was a member in standing of the Avengers. "Why didn't the X-Men call the Avengers for help?" was the question I've heard brought up to him. His answer was simple, (and I'm paraphrasing here as I'm too lazy too look up the conversation) The X-Men were required by the story to lose. Even if they had called in the Avengers, even the Fantastic Four as well, the X-Men still had to lose because Phoenix had to die.

    Basically, yes, the fence needed to come down as a point of the storyline this season. Even if they had four back-to-back episodes of showing them building a strong perimeter around the fence, it was still going to come down. The writers didn't have a lack of attention to detail, a lack of a perimeter is what helped to bring the fence down, which is what they needed. I don't see how that's lazy writing. Remember, this isn't a realistic survival show; it's a show in which zombies are shambling about and the earth is, for all intents and purposes, a dead world. I couldn't imagine anything more boring than watching a show in which the survivors are living in an impregnable castle. Is that where I'd want to live in such a situation? Of course! Is that where I want to watch these people on this tv show? Nope.

    First, foremost and final this show is for entertainment purposes.

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    To respond:
    1) Reinforcement of the fence doesn't necessarily equate to "Impregnable Castle." A mountain of junk would've prevented the CURRENT # of Walkers/Current level of Walker-density from breaching the fence, but we've already seen that the largest herd the group has yet seen is in the area. They could easily have done something like this: The fence reinforcement via piling heavy junk more than 2/3 of the way to the top of the fence reinforces the fence sure, but it ALSO makes eliminating Walkers THROUGH the fence far more difficult. This could easily have explained how the Walkers built up to such an extent they breached the fence, accomplishing the writers objective of bringing the fence down, while at the same time preserving a sense of realism that would've cost nothing more than the low men on the set-design totem pole piling up assorted Prison-type junk along the outer fence's inside.

    2) The group has already lost one dwelling place they (foolishly, as it turns out) PRESUMED safe, mainly due to the herd wandering nearby being drawn in by the sound of gunshots when the Shane Vs Rick thing went down. So Rick in PARTICULAR has EVERY REASON to seek any and all alternatives that don't involve popping off several hundred rounds in short order. Rick and Carl directly witnessed the almost-immediate repercussions of shooting Shane, and then the Shane-Walker, as Walkers began flooding out of the treeline within SECONDS of the shots.

    3) If you've already established that someone who isn't right in the head is attracting Walkers to the fence feeding them live mice/rats, and you've established the Governor's return, there was a preexisting basis for human-based sabotage of the fence. Here's a simple example: They rely on wiring shut the cuts they've made in the fence to use as entrances/exits to keep the Walkers from entering via those cut areas of the fence. Whatever the fence-reinforcement effort had consisted of, they've been using that system for moving inside and outside the fence for over a full Season now...so it almost goes without saying that they WOULDN'T pile junk in front of their fence-access-points, or if they did it would probably be one single heavy object, like say, a washer or dryer from the Prison Laundry. Either the "Walker Feeder" or the Governor could easily have been depicted as simply unwiring one of their holes in the fence, and doing something to widen/keep the gap open so that Walkers could easily penetrate the outer fence.

    4) The whole wooden pole reinforcement plan drives me bonkers. They kept setting the poles against the bottom 25% of the fence, which allowed the force the Walkers were exerting with their pushing to be conveyed nonstop to the mid-points of each wooden pole. Just angling them higher would've made them more effective.

    5) The Inner Fence: The group lost people, including Rick's loss of Lori due to an internal Walker-breach. The Governor left a large truck where Farmer Rick is now growing peas (the one with the .50 machinegun they disabled, before also disabling the truck. We KNOW they moved it a great distance, because it's nowhere to be seen in the "farm-area" so why not pushing it through the inner fence's gate, and leave it parked as dead weight in front of that very small section of movable inner fence that the Walkers took down so easily. With that truck in position those Walkers could've beat on that fence-gate until there wasn't any flesh left on their hands and arms and it never would've come down.

    Some may call this stuff nitpicking, but the story included these significant events. (Like the disabled "Machinegun Truck" being moved completely out of the farming area.) If you include something in your story, your audience is going to have questions about that inclusion. Such as: "If they went to the trouble of moving that big disabled truck completely out of the inner grassy area that's become their farmland, why leave that multi-ton chunk of metal just sitting somewhere uselessly. You're already spending time and manpower on moving it, why not double your benefits and get more out of the move than just freeing up the farmland?" Or: "Given that the overnight population surging of Fence-Walkers has become commonplace for at LEAST the last month, why was there no sign they had any other plan than just keeping the Cold Crews busy stabbing Walker heads through the fence? Again, the survivors of the Herschel-farm downfall are nightmarishly familiar with how everything can seem safe as houses one day, but be on the run from a tidal wave of Walkers by nightfall. There were many, MANY ways they still could've had the fence-breach to serve the story they wanted to tell, WITHOUT making it seem like the group simply doesn't learn from near-death errors.

    Want a badass scene? Remember how I mentioned it would be far more difficult to eliminate Walkers through the fence the way the Cold Crews were doing it if they'd piled a ton of junk inside the fence to reinforce it? That ever-increasing # of Walkers could've been depicted as overturning the disabled truck in front of the inner fence, and then scrambling over and around it like ants pouring over an obstacle. Wouldn't that have been an even more chilling opener to the Carl/Rick side-by-side Walker slaughtering scene? It would've fit perfectly with the "zombie theme" of "pitifully weak when alone, unstoppable as a tidal wave as a huge mass."

    Just because the writers decide the story calls for a setback to the protagonist efforts, it doesn't necessarily follow that the characters need to make a critical error they've already had an intense life-or-death learning experience with. Smart fence reinforcement doesn't HAVE to mean the Walkers become impotent in their efforts to breach the fence(s). If you want simpler, they could've just CGI-added a bunch more Walkers coming out of the treeline, and then narrowed the focus of the shot to depict matters as if this huge mass of Walkers simply overwhelmed even the prudent efforts at fence-reinforcement.

    Finally, think back to great "Zombie Overrun Scenes"...like the zombies busting through every boarded up window and door within seconds of each other, and pouring into the house in Night. The zombies relentlessness was underscored to a greater degree by the intelligently constructed barricades they had to overwhelm. When you as a viewer see a relatively imposing defensive measure in a zombie flick, and the zombies STILL overwhelm it, doesn't the very fact that the barrier which up until now had been holding them at bay was imposing make the zombies seem even more like an unstoppable crescendo of rotting flesh and singleminded focus?

    All I'm saying is that an already enjoyable scene would have been even better had the Walkers needed to overwhelm fence-reinforcement that was better implemented than the simpleminded nonsense with the low-angled logs. Seeing them pour over and around the overturned truck where they were met with a hail of desperate gunfire by Rick & Carl working as a well-oiled machine of zombie termination could only have heightened an already tense scene, at no more cost than the changing of a few set pieces when it came to fence-reinforcement and the addition of a truck.

    NOT saying the episode was bad. FAR from it. Just saying that a few more refinements could've tied things together even better, at little cost to the crew.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion2213 View Post
    No way, remember the size of that zombie herd that Daryl and co bumped into? You do NOT want to be attracting that sort of attention (which is exactly what I am hoping will happen because of the mass shooting at the breach...of course I'm a viewer, and not stuck in the prison!)

    The fence situation could have been controlled in silence with melee weapons if they didn't have so many people dead and dying from the flu or whatever it is...start of the season they had 4 or 5 folks going at it every day, the last episode had little Maggie all on her own.
    They're few and far between in the world of TWD though. We've only seen one herd that size.

    Besides, they're making noise all the flippin time. Driving in an out, shouting and roaring at each other...there's all sorts of banging and bashing going on every day.

    And as far as I could see Melee weapons weren't doing the job quick enough.

    Anyway, it's just the writing...there has to be some sort of action sequences I suppose.
    Last edited by shootemindehead; 14-Nov-2013 at 08:14 AM. Reason: .
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandrock74 View Post
    I couldn't imagine anything more boring than watching a show in which the survivors are living in an impregnable castle. Is that where I'd want to live in such a situation? Of course! Is that where I want to watch these people on this tv show? Nope.
    A perfect summation of the issue at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    They're few and far between in the world of TWD though. We've only seen one herd that size.

    Besides, they're making noise all the flippin time. Driving in an out, shouting and roaring at each other...there's all sorts of banging and bashing going on every day.

    And as far as I could see Melee weapons weren't doing the job quick enough.
    A gunshot will carry far further, and be much louder, than anyone shouting at each other ... and who's to say there was a lot of hashing and bashing going on? In episode one they all look rather content and happy with everyone around them. Even when Ty, Daryl, and Rick were going at it in their "brotangle", they were in a confined space with high walls in the heart of the prison complex - that sound ain't gonna carry very far, and it's an isolated incident.

    There's been a gradual increase in walkers - in the first episode they talk about more of them showing up - it seems to be a relatively recent problem for them. Compare the end of season three to the beginning of season four in terms of walker numbers outside the fences - you've got to build up to that point over several months, and with winter in-between the walkers are going to be slower than usual, so again you've got a respite.

    ...

    In terms of being able to set up the spikes etc by the new gate - well, they had to set up a new gate, so there's no two ways about it ... also, they would have done it shortly after their encounter with The Governor, so you've got a new influx of helpers and not that many walkers outside the fences. With the likes of Daryl and Michonne you've got two expert walker killers thinning out any numbers, plus you'd have people between the fences drawing other small groups of walkers away with noise elsewhere. It's totally do-able.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    A gunshot will carry far further, and be much louder, than anyone shouting at each other ...
    That would depend.

    In the open, a crack from a gun doesn't sound like it does indoors and it certainly doesn't sound like it does on a 5.1 surround sound system. It can be surprisingly weak.

    Yes, it's louder than shouting and repeat firing is louder still. But they've been chopping, banging and bashing logs for supports etc, plus they made a big set of main gates. They didn't do that in silence. They've been making plenty of noise.

    However...dicking about in a futile manner with the fence or spending two minutes shooting. I'd spend the two minutes shooting and clear the problem.

    Then fix the fence.

    Doing what the characters did was simply waiting for disaster.



    As Sarah says: "IF WE GET A LOT MORE, COME OUT AND SHOOT SOME"
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandrock74 View Post
    No thanks, I can't imagine how boring it would be having to watch something as monotonous as everyone working like that to fortify the fences.
    Yeah, umm, I agree 100% there. Never once did I say or even imply that I wanted to see that entire process play out on screen. It goes without saying that it would be boring and a waste of episode time.
    Someone asked how it would even be possible, and I gave a general theory. Not an endorsement for seeing the whole thing on screen. Maybe just the result would deserve a little screen time? Maybe?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sandrock74 View Post

    Basically, yes, the fence needed to come down as a point of the storyline this season. Even if they had four back-to-back episodes of showing them building a strong perimeter around the fence, it was still going to come down. The writers didn't have a lack of attention to detail, a lack of a perimeter is what helped to bring the fence down, which is what they needed. I don't see how that's lazy writing. Remember, this isn't a realistic survival show; it's a show in which zombies are shambling about and the earth is, for all intents and purposes, a dead world. I couldn't imagine anything more boring than watching a show in which the survivors are living in an impregnable castle. Is that where I'd want to live in such a situation? Of course! Is that where I want to watch these people on this tv show? Nope.

    First, foremost and final this show is for entertainment purposes.
    Yeah, it would still come down. Agreed. But they could allow it to come down in a more creative way than just leaving it as it is. Reinforcing it in no way means making it impervious. And I wouldn't want that because I'm waiting for them to leave the prison.
    However, doing some basic reinforcements just adds to the idea that the group actually wants to stop them from coming in, and are actually survival oriented. The way they have it now just makes it seem like the story is made up of contrived plot devices to drive future episodes. It doesn't have to be a survival documentary for people to put some thought and effort into reinforcing the fence. It would take only a few minutes of screen time to show some partially completed efforts to that end, and the flu story line shows why they don't have the manpower to complete it.
    The lazy writing aspect comes from the fact that they chose not to have them do anything to even try to reinforce it for the simple fact that in future episodes the fence would inevitably come down. They could've paid some attention to that aspect and still had the fence come down. It would've been more realistic. Especially since they do actually try to put some realism into the show. It's meant to be realistic. They just overlook some pretty important details that would add subtle reality to it and give a more submersive experience to the show.

  12. #87
    Twitching sandrock74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babomb View Post
    Yeah, umm, I agree 100% there. Never once did I say or even imply that I wanted to see that entire process play out on screen. It goes without saying that it would be boring and a waste of episode time.
    Someone asked how it would even be possible, and I gave a general theory. Not an endorsement for seeing the whole thing on screen. Maybe just the result would deserve a little screen time? Maybe?
    A line of dialogue or two would be all that is needed. At most, a quick A-Team like building stuff montage.

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    HAHA Before I read Babombs most recent post I was prepared to write that Babomb doesnt want the prison to actually hold as he has clearly stated he is ready to move on.

    I think the use of ammo by Rick was a horrible unilateral decision. Rick and Carl should have retreated into the sick ward locking all doors and convene the council and decide whether the ammo should be used or not. I kid I kid. Just my poor attempt at humor.

    As mentioned the gate had to be fixed. The design is obviously to deter hostile vehicles. But whats the point when the rest of the fence cant stop a vehicle. I really think the inner fence should be the priority. You can work without threat from the walkers. You can work on it 24/7 if its the priority. And as Wylde said, you have an enormous amount of metal doors and other items inside that prison. And if and when the outer fence fails you kill what you need to and repair when possible.

  14. #89
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    Apparently they wanted to dig a moat around the prison set - but they had too many potential problems with quicksand and such like around there.

    Now, if you had plenty of access to copious amounts of earth, you could shore up the inner fence with a big hill, swooping around the fence line ... of course, that'd take ruddy ages to do, especially with no machinery, and you'd need to have the earth somewhat compressed to withstand the force of a shedload of walkers.

    On The Talking Dead they spoke about using triangular supports between the two fences to better shore them up, but I imagine nobody in Team Prison has an engineering degree (it certainly wouldn't have occurred to me).

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    Anyways....

    Not sure if it was mentioned or not, but did anyone notice the scene at the end between Rick and Carl; as they are picking pea pods, the shot of Rick's revolver in the forefront before fading into the background to highlight Rick piercing open the fruit? Nice touch to echo back what Carol told him, "You can be a farmer, Rick. But you can't be just a farmer." I liked that.
    Last edited by Moon Knight; 14-Nov-2013 at 06:41 PM. Reason: fub
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