TWD 4x06 "Live Bait" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[rongravy]

Who was a worse Talking Dead guest - Dave Navarro or Marilyn Manson? Navarro by a mile in second place behind Kevin Smith. I actually kind of found Manson to be more interesting than I usually don't... As far as this episode, it reminded me of South Park in two ways: 1. It reminded me of the episode following the cliffhanger where they were going to tell who Cartman's dad really was, though they never did. Instead of showing the conclusion, they aired a Terrence and Phillip episode instead. Although I personally loved it, alot of people were super pissed. I felt this way watching this turd of an episode, cheated. 2. The Governor's gawd awful beard reminded me of the episode where Kyle is in a hospital bed with a full beard, and when he wakes up, they remove his "face warmer". I also cringed at how easy it was to just go back to looking like a baller again, exactly like before his Forrest Gump trekking across the apocalyptic wasteland... I did not like this episode, more so than last season's Andrea/Michonne hanging out in Woodbury one. I found it all hokey, and the kills in the pit? Ugh. Whilst I realize you can't just do the same old same old, that was just plain silly. They might as well have had him choking them down like Steve Martin in Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid when he heard a certain couple of specific words together... "Cleaning woma-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-n!!!

[Ragnarr]

Ahhh! I loved the scene where he got up in the morning and the rest of the guys had left him. Going to be fascinating if these same men now just fall back into line again, or if they now see "Brian" as no one special! Actually Governor Brian is going to likely have some explaining to do to his new friends when his old friends begin filling them in on the massacre on the road, the severed heads aquarium, etc. etc. besides "Brian" not being his real name.

[Andy]

Carol was not a todger dodger! Sure.... so she says. Just a coincidence, thats all Actually Governor Brian is going to likely have some explaining to do to his new friends when his old friends begin filling them in on the massacre on the road, the severed heads aquarium, etc. etc. besides "Brian" not being his real name.   If their following the novels, his real name IS brian, he was lying when he said philip.

[MinionZombie]

Good point Ragnarr - I was so distracted by everything else going on that I hadn't thought of them revealing to Lilly & Co what TG's past is. Andy - on "Brian" and the first novel:   I don't think they're following the novel on the "Brian" issue. In this episode TG gets the name from the side of that barn with all the graffiti on it - "Brian Heriot" - Morrissey said TG chose the name as it was a chance to be someone else and try and discard his past (when Lilly & Co asked him his name), and that he also chose it because judging from the words on the barn, Brian Heriot was someone that people cared about. I did wonder if they might be referencing that part of the first novel, but no - there'd be too much to do in order to put in that twist, plus it's too late now. We didn't even get to see his brother - there wasn't even a mention of him having a brother from what I recall in season three - so the identity switch with his brother isn't part of the show, which I think is the right thing to do on the TV version.

[Andy]

Good point Ragnarr - I was so distracted by everything else going on that I hadn't thought of them revealing to Lilly & Co what TG's past is. Andy - on "Brian" and the first novel:   I don't think they're following the novel on the "Brian" issue. In this episode TG gets the name from the side of that barn with all the graffiti on it - "Brian Heriot" - Morrissey said TG chose the name as it was a chance to be someone else and try and discard his past (when Lilly & Co asked him his name), and that he also chose it because judging from the words on the barn, Brian Heriot was someone that people cared about. I did wonder if they might be referencing that part of the first novel, but no - there'd be too much to do in order to put in that twist, plus it's too late now. We didn't even get to see his brother - there wasn't even a mention of him having a brother from what I recall in season three - so the identity switch with his brother isn't part of the show, which I think is the right thing to do on the TV version. Yeah i noticed the name on the garage, hence why i wasnt sure if they where going that direction or not.

[MinionZombie]

Yeah i noticed the name on the garage, hence why i wasnt sure if they where going that direction or not. I think that because it came from the side of the barn in this episode, they're not going to go the novel route on that particular issue.

[zombieparanoia]

This epsiode sucked balls. And not in a good way. The intro was basically 5 minutes of the governor showing off his zombie protection cheat codes. I didn't realize that in TWD all you had to do was a small side step to evade and lose a zombie that was coming right for you. The one on the sidewalk he barely steps out of its path and it just kind of carries on past. And the walkers don't follow you or anything if you're the governor. The ridiculous "new family" WTF?? So these people have not only managed to stay completely uninformed about the zombies and how to destroy them during the entire rise of zombies, fall of civilization and year or so post apocalypse because they have a truckful of canned goods and pepperoni sticks parked outside? That noone else in all the time since the zombie apocalypse started ever looked at or tried to take? While we're at it why are there basically no zombies outside the building? every other place the living gather seems to draw the walkers like flies to crap. They don't seem to have any barricades or traps. They don't even lock their doors! Nobody locks their doors! I mean ok, not everyone is going to fully barricade their sleeping spot for the night but the governor who is supposed to be fresh off months on the road solo and is nuttier than squirrel shit, doesn't even lean a chair against the door and sleeps on the couch in front of the door? It's one of the things that bothers me the most about this series, the total lack of any character acting at least as security conscious as a person does who is sitting at home watching the show. team prison doesn't even think to close their doors until it's too late a second time! Them running into martinez at the end, I don't know who is dumber for not immediately shooting the other in the face martinez or the governor. Martinez knows who the governor is and what he's capable of and has abandoned the governor once already. Either of them should want to kill the other on sight. Looks like the next episode is still in camp woodbury 2.0 so we can expect the writers are going to have daryl do something crazy about Carol in the midseason finale. All cliffhanger like.

[Wyldwraith]

Honestly I didn't want to be so critical, But if I'm honest with myself I agree with you completely zombieparanoia. That tiny sidestep and the Walker just sorta falling past him, then its just gone, irritated the HELL out of me. (Yes writers, I understand you were in Dramatic Montage Mode, but C'MON!) The uninformed family was more than a bit implausible after exposure to Morgan and his late son, who were FAR more realistic examples of the "Sit tight and dig in" zombie apocalypse survivors. They brutally sacrificed all sense of realism to make the Governor's meeting up with, interaction with, (Including the run for the oxygen tank. Daryl, Michonne, Tyreese and Bob can't sneak into an abandoned VETERINARY SCHOOL without Walkers flooding out at them from damned near every direction, but the Governor can waltz into a nursing home full of all its undead elderly residents and undead staff and out again like it's no big deal to wander into a building full to the brim with zombies.) Things got a bit better when the Governor smashed in the old guy's face just as he reanimated and grabbed the grieving girl. Then kinda nosedived again with the dramatically-convenient sprained ankle on level ground, followed seconds later by the spotting of a huge herd on an otherwise deserted country side road. I mean I've got NO problem with the notion that herds wander aimlessly, fits the genre perfectly. However, why were they all just bunched up at one spot in the bend in the road at the perfect spot not to be seen by anyone headed down the road until they turned the corner? When they did it to Rick in one of the first season episodes it made FAR more season. It was a major metropolitan area, a narrow street between two large buildings that would funnel the Walkers together etc etc. Here's another question: Walkers are as stupid as rocks. Why would Martinez build a pit hidden behind a slight rise in the ground, when a) Said rise in the ground would actively encourage Walkers to skirt around it, (thus skirting the pit), because if you notice you can see off to the Gov's right just as he goes into the pit the ground is tabletop-flat like five feet to the right, and b) Is completely unnecessary if the purpose is to catch Walkers, and poses a massive threat to any human traversing the area? Any one or two of the little things that went wrong with this episode could, if they were otherwise isolated occurrences, be called minor flaws/nitpicks. The problem with this episode is its absolutely littered with these individually small implausibilities, to the extent they build and build upon each other into a completely implausible viewing experience. Lastly, a big AGREED with the sentiment about Martinez shooting the Gov in the head the INSTANT he laid eyes on him. Martinez has witnessed the Governor mass-murder people he'd lived with and lead for months, simply for running for their lives with Walkers popping out of doors in the dark, sirens going off, and people firing automatic weapon at them as they came out the door. His (Martinez) "betrayal" was MUCH greater, quietly ditching the Gov and thus endangering him as he slept. Martinez should be thinking "OH SHIT, this crazy S.O.B iced thirty people cuz they ran for their lives. He'll kill my ass if he makes it out of that pit alive!" All in all something of a disappointment after the very well-timed and menacing manner in which he appears as the Gov spies on the goings-on at the Prison. They have GOT TO STOP this nonsense with the Governor seeming absolutely invulnerable to Walkers no matter how dire the circumstances/how much they favor the Walkers. Comparison: Two of Team Prison's VERY BEST fighters, a big muscular African-American man, and an army medic veritably armed to the teeth only NARROWLY escape from a building the ONLY POSSIBLE REASON I can imagine humans stayed in was due to its relatively heavy/seemingly-secure construction. That turns out to not ONLY be absolutely TEEMING with Walkers INSIDE, but ALSO has large groups of Walkers dotted all around the immediate area. The Governor, alone, enters a building logic would dictate is almost CERTAINLY brimming with Walkers and yet he gets out the same way he came in because this large # of Walkers can't even manage to cut off one hallway space already half-blocked by Wheelchair Walker. The problem with displaying numerous scenes where Walkers are absolutely no problem for the Governor is it destroys the very possibility of tension and uncertainty in every future encounter between the Governor and Walkers. Ie: If they couldn't get him while his gun's empty in a narrow warehouse-space, and they couldn't TOUCH him in a narrow old folks home hallway, why should I the viewer ever believe the character is in anymore danger than Rick Grimes?

[MinionZombie]

1) If Martinez shot TG as soon as he saw him - there goes the plot of the rest of the season. 2) When Martinez first lays eyes on him - he's got a child wrapped in his arms right next to his head!

[zombieparanoia]

1) If Martinez shot TG as soon as he saw him - there goes the plot of the rest of the season. 2) When Martinez first lays eyes on him - he's got a child wrapped in his arms right next to his head! Disagree on both points. 1. Martinez and his new group could easily fill whatever threat to the prison that the governor was intended to play in the further season, they've already shown the group to be marauders who have a "might makes right" ideology. Martinez is no slouch at being a cold blooded mofo either, both in his actions on behalf of woodbury and when he watched and didn't stop the governor as gov killed the entire "woodbury army" on a whim for basically no reason. Those people would have been martinezs friends and neighbors. 2. At that range? Not a concern hitting the child, considering how they've implied martinez is pretty handy with a gun. Or wait until the moment he puts the kid down.

[zomtom]

This latest episode was probably my least favorite of the season, so far. That's why I haven't commented on it until now. I was all hyped up and waiting for Daryl to rip Rick a new asshole (about the Carol banishment), and I ended up with a whole episode away from the prison. For me it was a let down. That being a said, I must say, I am naïve enough to feel bad for the Gov., considering I know he is a monster. Still, can he ever be forgiven for all of the atrocities he's committed? I know one thing; if I were a writer for TWD, I would be hanging out on this site, getting lots of ideas on how the hell the fans actually feel. - - - Updated - - - This latest episode was probably my least favorite of the season, so far. That's why I haven't commented on it until now. I was all hyped up and waiting for Daryl to rip Rick a new asshole (about the Carol banishment), and I ended up with a whole episode away from the prison. For me it was a let down. That being a said, I must say, I am naïve enough to feel bad for the Gov., considering I know he is a monster. Still, can he ever be forgiven for all of the atrocities he's committed? I know one thing; if I were a writer for TWD, I would be hanging out on this site, getting lots of ideas on how the hell the fans actually feel.

[Wyldwraith]

I agree that it was poor timing to duck away from the Prison right now, before letting us see Rick lay out the Carol issue for Daryl, and Daryl's reaction to that. The way it's done gives you the feeling they just wanted to create a contrived sort of cliffhanger for the midseason break. Honestly, I can't understand TWD writers sometimes. These are men and women paid to immerse themselves creatively in the plot-continuity, yet they often seem to lack an understanding of plot flow. The time to do the sit-down with Daryl should have been what we saw last Sunday, THEN do this stuff with "What's the Governor been up to?" I say that because they have Rick immediately communicate what he did about Carol to Maggie and Herschel pretty much at his earliest opportunity. The group Daryl led on the run to the Vet Hospital then returns, and once things are settled down Daryl asks Herschel where Carol is. Herschel gives a "I'm staying out of it" sort of response, redirecting Daryl to Rick....we're all waiting to see what happens when the shoe drops and Rick tells Daryl what he did, and then......cut away to completely unconnected plot elements. Now, no matter WHAT they do with regards to Rick explaining himself to Daryl, a large chunk of the tension surrounding Daryl's possible reactions to the news is gone. Had there been a compelling story reason to sacrifice that tension, all well and good. Unfortunately, a pseudo-pathos-ridden Governor-centric catchup Montage is NOT what I would call a compelling story reason. Unlike the Rick/Daryl face-off, the depiction of the Gov's recent past had nothing about it to say: "This fits right here." Add to that the high degree of probability that the writers will have the Rick-character spew something like "I made the choice that was best for the group, and best for Carol." Then, Daryl will either a) Be seen as blithely accepting this, or b) Will be readying himself to go find Carol, until either a plea from Rick about the people here needing Daryl more than Carol does right now, or Michonne regurgitating a warped version of Daryl's own reasoning about why he thought she should stop going out to look for the Governor. You know, stuff about Daryl having no idea where to look for her. Lastly, one point I highly doubt we ever see raised is Daryl angrily pointing out that Rick had no right to sit on that info during the interval between Daryl's group returning and when Rick gets around to telling Daryl what's what. By delaying disclosure, Rick has made it exponentially more difficult for Daryl to find Carol....if not impossible. I think that, however we each might individually view Rick's call about Carol from our own moral perspectives, that we should all be able to agree Rick has no morally-justifiable reason to delay disclosure to one of the parties most impacted by his decision. Sitting on the info amounts to Rick attempting to make Daryl's decision for him. (And it's not like Rick doesn't know that's the most likely course for Daryl to take, based on his established pattern of behavior...or if not outright "know"...Rick has every reason to BELIEVE Daryl would go tearing off after someone he cared for that was in danger.)

[sandrock74]

Why does everyone assume Daryl will fly off the handle about Carol's banishment? Maybe initially being upset about it, as a knee jerk reaction, but it shouldn't take him (or anyone) long to realize Rick essentially spared her from the wrath of Tyresse. Rick didn't just throw her out into the wilds; he made sure she had a car load of supplies, weapons and gas. It doesn't mean Daryl would be happy about it, but not all going crazy over it either.

[Buzzbomb]

This series has (for me) been excellent so far. The end of each episode has left me pondering over what happens next and left me eagerly looking forward to the following week. After last week's closing shot and this weeks "Live Bait" title, I'd kind of expected the Governor to show up at the Prison with Carol on the end of the hook... But then came this week's mind-fcuk. Sure there have been niggles with Series #4, but I doubt any 'Zombie' flick would stand up to the same scrutiny that's heaped on TWD. (and for the record, the big box of guns in last weeks episode looked like it was a waste bin or laundry basket with wheels). The Governor's spell in the wilderness - to me he seems like someone who ultimately defines himself by his role as a father. He's beyond redemption, but this weeks encounters with the biters/walkers just show someone who's sunk to the point where he doesn't really give a toss about his own fate - and now has something to live for. Martinez could have easily shot the Governor rather than abandon him in the first place, so there's no reason for him to do now? If/when the Governor shows up at team prison, I wonder if Rick will ask him 3 questions... I can't help but wonder if Carol is now in the same group as Martinez.... and there's still the unanswered question over the likely murder of the hippie chick & wherabouts of Sam? Wanna-be police woman should learn to tie her shoe-laces... Roll on next week! PS: I find it amazing that the vehicles in TWD that have been standing for 2 years plus, still work without needing a major overhaul.

[AcesandEights]

Why does everyone assume Daryl will fly off the handle about Carol's banishment? Maybe initially being upset about it, as a knee jerk reaction, but it shouldn't take him (or anyone) long to realize Rick essentially spared her from the wrath of Tyresse. Rick didn't just throw her out into the wilds; he made sure she had a car load of supplies, weapons and gas. It doesn't mean Daryl would be happy about it, but not all going crazy over it either. I agree, I think people are setting the table to have something to complain about based on a false premise.