TWD 4x08 "Too Far Gone" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Ragnarr]

Cleanly decapitating someone with a katana is more about technique and skill than brute strength. Spot on Publius! The Japanese who train with the katana even today use (I believe) bamboo shoots tied together to simulate the resistance of bone and flesh. If a sword swing is not perfect, the blade flutters because of the slight angle and will not cut cleanly through. And yes, the walker's flesh is rotting so it would be easier to dismember them with a katana I'd say.

[MinionZombie]

I've seen a few people around the net complain that 'not enough people died' ... but I'd argue against that. We lost two major main characters in The Governor and Hershel, we also lost new characters such as Alisha, and we even lost Meghan ... and who knows about Judith ... plus various others like Mitch and background fodder. I think that's plenty for an episode. I don't want character deaths to become a constant thing - one, because you'll never get enough time with certain characters before they're offed, and two, because you don't want character deaths to become 'kinda meh' or less impactful than they should be. We got a lot of time with Hershel, so his loss was keenly felt - you don't need a load of other people getting killed off. You don't want to thin out your cast so much that you've constantly got to introduce new characters, who might not be as good as past ones, you need to get a good through-line with the characters you have, so that when they die there's something more impactful about losing them. PLUS, when people have made it this far into the apocalypse, they've been doing something right ... so cheap-shot deaths are a piss-take. I'd prefer main character deaths to be generally more spaced out - make it more of an event - and therefore much more shocking. The sense of loss will be greater, too. Close calls are good too (e.g. Rick, Daryl, Glenn) because it keeps you on your toes and in this world some people are going to have near-misses or get seriously roughed-up (like Rick). So, all-in-all, I think the body count for 4x08 was ideal. Two major losses, a couple of secondary losses, and background fodder. That's plenty.

[zombieparanoia]

Cleanly decapitating someone with a katana is more about technique and skill than brute strength. Actually untrue. I was under this belief as well until a few years ago when I helped a friend slaughter some goats for a big festival/thing his community was putting on. He preferred decapitation over cutting the throat because he felt it was "quicker". We used a decent large machete and I thought the whole "you have to hit the neck just right" thing but it really went through a lot easier than I thought it would, I pretty much overswung most of the time. I chopped 4 goats whose necks were almost the size/diameter of a persons. It is the reason why i always think in the case of a zombie apocalypse I'm not going for the brain, I'll aim for the neck, unless I have a gun and am close enough to be accurate with it.

[Publius]

The Japanese who train with the katana even today use (I believe) bamboo shoots tied together to simulate the resistance of bone and flesh. Yep, actually rolled tatami (reed mats) often with bamboo poles in the middle to simulate bone, and often soaked in water to more closely simulate the density of flesh. In the old days they sometimes used to use real bodies to test new swords (convicts or deceased vagrants or whatever) and some old swords have markings in the blades to show how many bodies they were tested on with what kinds of cuts. We used a decent large machete A machete is not the same as a katana. In fact, Governor's problem is probably that he tried to wield the katana like a machete. Edged weapons can be optimized for three types of blows: thrusts or stabs, hacking or chopping, and slicing. A stiletto or foil is a stabbing weapon. A machete or axe is for hacking or chopping. Any serrated blade (like a steak knife) is designed for slicing. A katana's blade is also optimized for slicing. You have to swing it in such a way that the edge smoothly slides against the surface of whatever you're trying to cut -- a "drawing" cut. If you just chop with it like you're using a machete, you probably won't cut very deeply.

[blind2d]

Excellent episode! Sorry for mimicking everyone else on this thread, but I had to say it. I was blown away. Almost certainly one of the best of the whole show. Mud zombie was excellent. Can't wait for it to return in February! I'll miss Hersh, for sure.

[MinionZombie]

Publius - indeed, and also look at when TG does decapitate Hershel. He takes 3 or 4 swings - or hacks, rather - and it's very much more of a machete-wielding action that he takes, whereas when Michonne uses it, it's as you say, all about slicing and movement. TG's strikes were more just direct hacks at poor old Hershel's neck.

[Legion2213]

In the old days they sometimes used to use real bodies to test new swords (convicts or deceased vagrants or whatever) and some old swords have markings in the blades to show how many bodies they were tested on with what kinds of cuts. Yep, I saw a documentary on that, they'd have things like "cut through both hips" inscribed on them and such-like. Pretty brutal stuff.

[zombieparanoia]

A machete is not the same as a katana. In fact, Governor's problem is probably that he tried to wield the katana like a machete. Edged weapons can be optimized for three types of blows: thrusts or stabs, hacking or chopping, and slicing. A stiletto or foil is a stabbing weapon. A machete or axe is for hacking or chopping. Any serrated blade (like a steak knife) is designed for slicing. A katana's blade is also optimized for slicing. You have to swing it in such a way that the edge smoothly slides against the surface of whatever you're trying to cut -- a "drawing" cut. If you just chop with it like you're using a machete, you probably won't cut very deeply. Wrong. A katanas blade geometry and striking style optimizes it for a lead tip strike. The curvature of the blade maximizes the blades kinetic energy into the top few inches, this is why in Kendo or Iaido you don't see a lot of slicing. You would never try to strike with a katana with an impact point of the middle of the blade and then slicing out towards the tip. Just the tip, just for second. Slicing being defined as a cut which starts at one point in the blade and then uses movement across the surface face of the blade to optimize cutting efficiency see also: sawing(like a serrated knife on a steak). Your explanation makes no sense, a serrated knife is for slicing but so is a katana(non serrated)? A katana is a chopper, a highly optimized chopper, but still a chopper nonetheless. I understand what you're getting at in that blades are function optimized with different blade geometries and bevel angles etc but what you're saying is just not true. It is a commonly held misconception among martial artists and sword enthusiasts who have more time in theory than field application. Unfortunately so is the idea that a tatami mat soaked in water and rolled tightly around bamboo simulates the density of flesh. Take a tatami mat and run a reasonably sharp knife across its surface, it might be damaged but not much, now do that with a pork roast or some piece of meat, waaay more damage. Because one is highly fibrous and dense and the other is just meat, which is surprisingly yielding to blades and edges, bones are softer than we think, with nowhere nearly the resilience of bamboo. It would take far more force and pressure to nominally damage a roll of reeds around wood than human flesh.

[AcesandEights]

Oh, Christ...never thought an honest to goodness interwebz katana debate would darken our door. Just please, my gaijin brothers, do not bring dishonor upon our house.

[zombieparanoia]

Oh, Christ...never thought an honest to goodness interwebz katana debate would darken our door. Just please, my gaijin brothers, do not bring dishonor upon our house. You rack honor and disciprine. Ok how about another M-4 vs Ak-XX debate, with particular emphasis on ammunition availability and military historical use? After that probably wrap up with a star wars vs star trek and Over vs Under toilet paper orientation double header.

[Wyldwraith]

On a different note concerning katanas, Honest question as I lack the practical knowledge AND extensive theory concerning the weapon. Would it really be anywhere near as easy to THRUST with a Katana as Michonne often makes it out to be? Ie: The Governor chest-stab, countless stabbings into an eye-socket and out the back of the head etc etc... Just curious, and not intending to start some Geekwar...just seemed like an awful lot of the katana action from Michonne in TWD seems more lightsaber and less metal-bladed weapon. Stuff like cleanly shearing the front of a skull off, beginning at the crown of the head and ending with perfectly straight-line bone shearing that removes the face entirely. Not that it really bothers me. Like any other action/survival horror fan I've long since become inured to improbable feats with edged weapons. (Though if you REALLY want to see some TRULY RIDICULOUS blade-action on zombie-vampire-type critters, watch Against The Dark, w/ Steven Seagal. Campy movie, but wins the prize for most lightsaber-like imitations with various bladed implements.) Was as I said just curious how easy, difficult or impossible the various iconic action moves with everything from machetes to katanas actually are.

[shootemindehead]

There's absolutely nothing in 'The Walking Dead' that's real about any kind of stabbing, cutting, slicing or gouging. People stick all sorts of things through bone, flesh and muscle with most ridiculous ease.

[AcesandEights]

There's absolutely nothing in 'The Walking Dead' that's real about any kind of stabbing, cutting, slicing or gouging. People stick all sorts of things through bone, flesh and muscle with most ridiculous ease. Like all the fence line killings! Gotta chalk it up to the unspecified ins and outs of zombiedom in the TWD universe and extend that disbelief a bit further, eh? It doesn't really bother me, but it rarely passes me by unnoticed. - - - Updated - - - Over vs Under toilet paper orientation double header. Didn't even know this was a thing till the last few years. I mean, what barbarian lets their toilet paper hang behind/ under the roll?! Am I right? - - - Updated - - - On a different note concerning katanas, Honest question as I lack the practical knowledge AND extensive theory concerning the weapon. Would it really be anywhere near as easy to THRUST with a Katana as Michonne often makes it out to be? Ie: The Governor chest-stab, countless stabbings into an eye-socket and out the back of the head etc etc... Can't say for sure, but with thrusting at a decent sized target (i.e. The Gov), I'd guess it would be perfectly likely, but the person wielding the sword will have to shift their grip and/or alter their stance/footing. Probably would do both if they weren't off balance or too distracted or confined. Just a guess, though. My big problem with the Katana is...it'd break eventually under the use it's getting, pretty quickly I'd think (please, I'm not up to date on the comic, so don't hint about if it happens at some point).

[Legion2213]

Regarding the ease of walker killing in TWD universe, I look at it as balancing out reanimated corpses that should be nothing more than piles of bones by now. Oh, and toilet roll...it's over...always over...standards and all that.

[Buzzbomb]

Looks like Carol taught her students well... and Glenn now gets the vacation he wished for too! That clip at the end where the Governor's "King" chess piece gets trampled by a walker was a lovely touch... I'd have preferred it if the Gov' had meet a similar fate to 'Rhodes', but I guess you can't have everything. Presumably, the prison crowd will have a pre-arranged meeting place (hopefully stocked with provisions)... so it won't take too long for them to find each other. I can't help but think that Lizzie & co didn't make it out of the prison, so perhaps there will be a rescue attempt in the offing? Re Judith... if anyone (other than one of the kids) had picked her up, why not just lift the carrying case, rather than take the baby out? I'm wondering if Bob the medic might be responsible for the rat disection? Another awesome episode - roll on Feb!